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Toews, Wirtz, and Bettman

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Old
10-05-2012, 09:12 AM
  #76
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Are the Hawks still paying back the huge amount of money that the Wirtz Corporation loaned them in the late 90's early 00's? That's the only way the Hawks are 'losing' money.

The cash is going from Wirtz's left pocket to his right.

Hawks make $10m operating profit.
Hawks pay back $15m to Wirtz Corporation.
Hawks 'lose' $5m.

Those aren't exact numbers but you get the point.

This creative accounting gives Wirtz and Bettman some more ammo for the CBA negotiations. The problem for them is only an idiot would believe it.

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10-05-2012, 09:15 AM
  #77
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I thought it was widely known that the Hawks team is losing money but the Hawks ownership is not due to the way cash flows amongst the various entities they own?

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10-05-2012, 09:19 AM
  #78
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Players have to know that they are gong to end up at 50%...after the NFL and NBA deals. They are more stupid than I thought if they thought otherwise. 57% of an ever increasing revenue stream is too much no matter how you cut it. Especially for this league.

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10-05-2012, 09:21 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by MagicSlap View Post
I thought it was widely known that the Hawks team is losing money but the Hawks ownership is not due to the way cash flows amongst the various entities they own?
Rocky himself said the team lost its ass quite brutally under the Bill Wirtz business model and will be repaying those debts for a long time.

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10-05-2012, 09:24 AM
  #80
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We will never know the truth about making or losing money of the Blackhawks. Just speculation on our part. But I don't believe Rocky when he says it........

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10-05-2012, 09:25 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by swanny View Post
Players have to know that they are gong to end up at 50%...after the NFL and NBA deals. They are more stupid than I thought if they thought otherwise. 57% of an ever increasing revenue stream is too much no matter how you cut it. Especially for this league.
The NHL hasn't even offered 50% so the point is moot at the moment.

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First, owners demanded roughly a 57-43 split in their favor, and then in their latest proposal they offered a six-year deal that starts players off with a 49% guarantee for next season and ends with players receiving 47% in the final year of the contract.
That shows no sense of urgency on their part. If they said, here it is 50-50, that's as far as we'll go, then from that point on, the cancelled games could be blamed at least in part on the players if you take the stance that 50-50 is fair.

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10-05-2012, 10:33 AM
  #82
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When I was a season ticket holder, I liked this team better when Bill was around. I would call my ticket rep and they would bend over backwards to help me. I didn't particularly care about the home games not being on TV as I was at all of them anyways.

As a current non-season ticket holder, I like that all of the games are on TV. Of course, I wouldn't be a non-season ticket holder if Rocky didn't reverse his dad's policies of loyalty to the fans.


Last edited by massivegoonery: 10-05-2012 at 10:41 AM.
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10-05-2012, 10:38 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
When I was a STH, I liked this team better when Bill was around. I would call my ticket rep and they would bend over backwards to help me. I didn't particularly care about the home games not being on TV as I was at all of them anyways.

As a current non-STH, I like that all of the games are on TV. Of course, I wouldn't be a non-STH if Rocky didn't reverse his dad's policies of loyalty to the fans.
Such as...what? You can't say good things about Bill Wirtz without listing them in detail.

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10-05-2012, 10:40 AM
  #84
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what's an sth?

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10-05-2012, 10:41 AM
  #85
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Season ticket holder, edited.

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10-05-2012, 11:00 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post

As a current non-season ticket holder, I like that all of the games are on TV. Of course, I wouldn't be a non-season ticket holder if Rocky didn't reverse his dad's policies of loyalty to the fans.
I don't get this whole 'loyalty to the fans' thing. So because Rocky was smart and starting televising games (which he did, Martini, not McD. He started doing it before he hired him, I prove that with links in a thread probably a half year back) to actually grow a fan base and make people see how awesome going to a game in person is he's the bad guy for not only caring about the 8,000 or so season ticket holders he had? That's just silly, IMO.

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10-05-2012, 11:24 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
The NHL hasn't even offered 50% so the point is moot at the moment.



That shows no sense of urgency on their part. If they said, here it is 50-50, that's as far as we'll go, then from that point on, the cancelled games could be blamed at least in part on the players if you take the stance that 50-50 is fair.
The players have come back with nothing since the owners offered 47%. Negotiations go both ways...not the owners keeping on coming back with a new offer. nhlpa have to come up with something regarding the main economics of the agreement. They are just stroking their meat as we speak....which Fehr seems to be content in doing. Right now, I am more pissed at the players than owners.

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10-05-2012, 11:29 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by swanny View Post
The players have come back with nothing since the owners offered 47%. Negotiations go both ways...not the owners keeping on coming back with a new offer. nhlpa have to come up with something regarding the main economics of the agreement. They are just stroking their meat as we speak....which Fehr seems to be content in doing. Right now, I am more pissed at the players than owners.
I agree they should come back with something, maybe 55%. I think what would be fair is an end agreement on 52% to the players, steadily decreasing to 50 by the expiration of the deal.

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10-05-2012, 11:54 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
When I was a season ticket holder, I liked this team better when Bill was around. I would call my ticket rep and they would bend over backwards to help me. I didn't particularly care about the home games not being on TV as I was at all of them anyways.

As a current non-season ticket holder, I like that all of the games are on TV. Of course, I wouldn't be a non-season ticket holder if Rocky didn't reverse his dad's policies of loyalty to the fans.
somebody finally understands the point I was making on the first page.

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10-05-2012, 11:56 AM
  #90
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somebody finally understands the point I was making on the first page.
I'm a STH now and have not had problems with the reps, I want to know what people were getting then so I can compare it to now. Otherwise, he did nothing that isn't being done now as far as I know. Did he send you a bottle of scotch during the holidays, throw a big party for STH's, let's hear something.

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10-05-2012, 11:58 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I'm a STH now and have not had problems with the reps, I want to know what people were getting then so I can compare it to now. Otherwise, he did nothing that isn't being done now as far as I know. Did he send you a bottle of scotch during the holidays, throw a big party for STH's, let's hear something.
yes, actually there was a party for STH's each year.

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10-05-2012, 11:58 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I agree they should come back with something, maybe 55%. I think what would be fair is an end agreement on 52% to the players, steadily decreasing to 50 by the expiration of the deal.
I agree with that. It is frustrating that Fehr had a deal to present but the players voted against presenting it. So I guess we can't always blame him. Players have to nut up sometime and get to the table. Playing hardball by them is not going to work.

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10-05-2012, 12:06 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
When I was a season ticket holder, I liked this team better when Bill was around. I would call my ticket rep and they would bend over backwards to help me. I didn't particularly care about the home games not being on TV as I was at all of them anyways.

As a current non-season ticket holder, I like that all of the games are on TV. Of course, I wouldn't be a non-season ticket holder if Rocky didn't reverse his dad's policies of loyalty to the fans.
How can differentiate between STH experiences now and then if you no longer have them? Having a good experience with a ticket rep is not indicative of a better strategy. When Bill was around, there was a lot less of us so obviously easier to service.

I can tell you as a previous STH I didn't attend every game. Some STH's split them, sell them or have conflicting events. So not being able to watch my favorite team when I couldn't attend was annoying. Not that the team was that good those years but the kids were starting to come in.

So you preferred when the home games were not shown on t.v.?

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yes, actually there was a party for STH's each year.
They still do that.

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10-05-2012, 12:19 PM
  #94
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So... essentially, a few people are upset that ticket prices went up and couldn't afford to keep their season tickets because, wait for it.... demand went up?

I'm not going to sit here and claim that Rocky's the second coming or anything like that, but to say that he isn't a vast improvement (essentially by default) over his father in almost every measure is utterly ridiculous. Are people's nostalgia for the bad old days really that strong that they're forgetting how godawful Dollar Bill really was? He almost single-handedly held back the popularity, growth, and development of hockey in Chicagoland for a generation or two. Tens of thousands of fans swore off the team due to his incompetence and general disregard for fans over the years, and for ever story about how nice someone was treated by a sales rep you're ignoring countless stories in the media over the years of their organization's ineptitude in almost every avenue. There's a reason why the fans flooded back almost immediately after Dollar Bill died, and before their product on the ice became really good, and how quickly old time players were relieved to come back to the organization in ambassadorial roles.

So yes, sorry.... the team's business model changed. They actually have one.

That being said, essentially all of this is on the owners. Blaming the players for having the gall to not want to see their fairly negotiated salaries cut by 20%+ because owners can't be trusted with their own wallets is ridiculous.

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10-05-2012, 12:26 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
So... essentially, a few people are upset that ticket prices went up and couldn't afford to keep their season tickets because, wait for it.... demand went up?

I'm not going to sit here and claim that Rocky's the second coming or anything like that, but to say that he isn't a vast improvement (essentially by default) over his father in almost every measure is utterly ridiculous. Are people's nostalgia for the bad old days really that strong that they're forgetting how godawful Dollar Bill really was? He almost single-handedly held back the popularity, growth, and development of hockey in Chicagoland for a generation or two. Tens of thousands of fans swore off the team due to his incompetence and general disregard for fans over the years, and for ever story about how nice someone was treated by a sales rep you're ignoring countless stories in the media over the years of their organization's ineptitude in almost every avenue. There's a reason why the fans flooded back almost immediately after Dollar Bill died, and before their product on the ice became really good, and how quickly old time players were relieved to come back to the organization in ambassadorial roles.

So yes, sorry.... the team's business model changed. They actually have one.

That being said, essentially all of this is on the owners. Blaming the players for having the gall to not want to see their fairly negotiated salaries cut by 20%+ because owners can't be trusted with their own wallets is ridiculous.
Nobody actually said that as far as I saw. I game mine up because I took a job that required more last minute travel. The guy I split them with wanted the tickets divided up before the season but that didn't work for me. Plus, we found ourselves selling ours and buying better seats on most occasions.

I still attend about as many games but now I can go spur of the moment or not be locked in to any particular date. It's more expensive that way.

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10-05-2012, 01:03 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
I think Wirtz says they are losing money to justify hiking tickets.
ya think

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10-05-2012, 01:52 PM
  #97
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Bill was a fantastic businessman. He wouldn't have owned the Hawks if it didn't benefit him.

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10-05-2012, 02:07 PM
  #98
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Bill was a fantastic businessman. He wouldn't have owned the Hawks if it didn't benefit him.
Bill loved the Hawks. Which is why he never sold or moved the team, despite the fact that it was the only business venture he had that was in the red.

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10-05-2012, 02:15 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Bill was a fantastic businessman. He wouldn't have owned the Hawks if it didn't benefit him.
He was a good businessman in the liquor industry, not in the realm of professional sports. If he was, he would've made the identical common sense moves that his son immediately implemented upon taking over and stopped the hemorrhaging of money in a second, most importantly not being a stubborn buffoon regarding televising games despite it being apparently clear since the 60's and 70's that it helped grow revenues for professional sports teams.

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10-05-2012, 02:29 PM
  #100
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I don't for a second ever believe the Hawks lost one cent

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