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Old
10-05-2012, 03:13 PM
  #76
theLongR0D
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Originally Posted by CoachBadkitten View Post
A Duchene deal would have to look something like this:

To Leafs: Duchene, Small added piece

To Avs:Kessel,Gardiner

Fills 2 Avs needs as they get a scoring winger and a potential 1st or 2nd pairing D-man. Leafs get a young No. 1 Center who has loads of potential and can be built around as well as another piece.
this one is highly doubtful, much like most proposals I guess lol

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10-05-2012, 03:13 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Lmao, people from Colorado are saying no? What is in the water down there?



I think it's pretty obvious that it is a no from the Leafs.
Clearly not as strong as the stuff you drink in Toronto.


Avs say no as well. Don't get all upset and act superior because Avs fans want to keep their young top center with a ton of potential. It just looks ignorant. An Avs fan did not even propose this.

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10-05-2012, 03:15 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Lmao, people from Colorado are saying no? What is in the water down there?



I think it's pretty obvious that it is a no from the Leafs.
I live in a different continent and I wouldn't trade Duchene at all. Not for anything.

Oh hold on there's another page and it's worse. I will say one more thing and I'm done.

Duchene's going nowhere. He wants to stay, the team want him to stay and the team need him to stay, and when he plays next and plays at the level he can there is no way in hell he will be allowed to leave.

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Old
10-05-2012, 03:17 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by theLongR0D View Post

It may not be fair value wise. But I said that's what it would look like if it were to happen not that it was good value. Sure we have 3 good centers, but its not like we are in a rush to move one. Duchene will go nowhere unless overpayment is coming back.

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10-05-2012, 03:20 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by CoachBadkitten View Post
It may not be fair value wise. But I said that's what it would look like if it were to happen not that it was good value. Sure we have 3 good centers, but its not like we are in a rush to move one. Duchene will go nowhere unless overpayment is coming back.
understandable, I think thats why most trade proposals on HF are typically unrealistic. Most people involved usually wouldn't be traded unless it was overpayment

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10-05-2012, 03:24 PM
  #81
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Kessel>>Duchene

No thanks

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Old
10-05-2012, 03:36 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Clearly not as strong as the stuff you drink in Toronto.

Avs say no as well. Don't get all upset and act superior because Avs fans want to keep their young top center with a ton of potential. It just looks ignorant. An Avs fan did not even propose this.
Duchene to date is a 1B or 2A player at best (based off of his best, one season), coming off a terrible season and injury (not to mention a large portion of the fanbase crucifying him). Kessel is an elite 1A player coming off of a PPG season in the top of the league's ranks.

Don't want to trade him? Fine. He's a big Colorado fan. You want to keep your hometown boy. That's cool, even though it could be argued he's not even one of your 2 best centers.

But denying that the Toronto offer is incredibly more valuable, or making counter-offers of ridiculous proportions (asking for the best rookie defenceman last year in addition to a superior player) is just flat-out delusional, to the point where I am a bit worried about the mental health of some people in this thread.

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Old
10-05-2012, 03:44 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachBadkitten View Post
Duchene will go nowhere unless overpayment is coming back.
If that's true then how come Duchene was only re-signed with a 2 year deal after his Entry Level Contract had expired. Looking at what other RFA's and potiental RFA's were getting is a lot more years and etc compared to what Duchene just re-signed for.

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Old
10-05-2012, 03:48 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Duchene to date is a 1B or 2A player at best (based off of his best, one season), coming off a terrible season and injury (not to mention a large portion of the fanbase crucifying him). Kessel is

an elite 1A player coming off of a PPG season in the top of the league's ranks.

Don't want to trade him? Fine. He's a big Colorado fan. You want to keep your hometown boy. That's cool, even though it could be argued he's not even one of your 2 best centers.

But denying that the Toronto offer is incredibly more valuable, or making counter-offers of ridiculous proportions (asking for the best rookie defenceman last year in addition to a superior player) is just flat-out delusional, to the point where I am a bit worried about the mental health of some people in this thread.
Wait, so having 1 good season makes you an elite 1A player? Kessel is very good, but he needs to have another good season before he's considered elite. Also, I personally wouldn't put Kessel as elite until he ups his game defensively a bit more.

Kessel does have more value after last season, but he isn't this as good as you think. I wouldn't do it, but Toronto is giving up more value at this moment. I believe that Hishon will become healthy and Duchene will breakout which in a few years would turn out as a bad trade for Colorado.

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10-05-2012, 03:49 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
If that's true then how come Duchene was only re-signed with a 2 year deal after his Entry Level Contract had expired. Looking at what other RFA's and potiental RFA's were getting is a lot more years and etc compared to what Duchene just re-signed for.
Because we sign our players to reasonable contracts.

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10-05-2012, 03:53 PM
  #86
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Duchene

for

Gardiner
Kadri
Colborne

?

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Old
10-05-2012, 03:55 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Duchene

for

Gardiner
Kadri
Colborne

?
Not willing to give all that up until he proves he can get close to 70 pts again

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Old
10-05-2012, 03:57 PM
  #88
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Not willing to give all that up until he proves he can get close to 70 pts again
Well IF he does score 70 points again you can bet that Colorado isn't trading him.

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Old
10-05-2012, 03:58 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
Wait, so having 1 good season makes you an elite 1A player? Kessel is very good, but he needs to have another good season before he's considered elite. Also, I personally wouldn't put Kessel as elite until he ups his game defensively a bit more.
It is not 1 good season, unlike Duchene. Kessel has 4 seasons already that are equal to or better than Duchene's best season, one of which was the most recent season where he went PPG.

Kessel was top 5 in goal scoring, is near the top of the list in G/G over the last 4 years, and one of few players to score 30+ goals every year over the past 4 years. He was top-10 in overall scoring this year. That is elite.

Duchene isn't anywhere close to that yet, and this past season put considerable doubt to the fact that he ever will reach that point.

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10-05-2012, 04:18 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Stories View Post
Because we sign our players to reasonable contracts.
Obviously this will depend on what the term limit is that teams can sign players to and his stats, but when it's time for the Avalanche to re-sign Gabriel Landeskog will he also be getting a 2 year deal like Duchene or will he get maybe a 5 year deal since they just named him their new captain?

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10-05-2012, 04:20 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
Obviously this will depend on what the term limit is that teams can sign players to and his stats, but when it's time for the Avalanche to re-sign Gabriel Landeskog will he also be getting a 2 year deal like Duchene or will he get maybe a 5 year deal since they just named him their new captain?
Duchene's current contract was signed because of a combination of his last bad season and a willingness on his part to prove he is worth more than that. His contract is a sign of his loyalty to the Avs and his desire to improve with us.

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10-05-2012, 05:26 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
It is not 1 good season, unlike Duchene. Kessel has 4 seasons already that are equal to or better than Duchene's best season, one of which was the most recent season where he went PPG.

Kessel was top 5 in goal scoring, is near the top of the list in G/G over the last 4 years, and one of few players to score 30+ goals every year over the past 4 years. He was top-10 in overall scoring this year. That is elite.

Duchene isn't anywhere close to that yet, and this past season put considerable doubt to the fact that he ever will reach that point.
Borderline, at best. Kessel has been good throughout his career, and he just had a career year that suggests he might be taking the next step, but until he can reproduce it we're talking about one great season, and a bunch of good ones. That is not an elite player. The simple fact is you need to use this last season to prop your argument up, because without it you don't have a leg to stand on. 327 points in 456 games are not elite numbers.

For Kessel to be categorized as elite, in my opinion, based on(primarily) his one great season, then that one great season should be something special. 50 goals or 100 points special.

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10-05-2012, 06:24 PM
  #93
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Not really, Kulemin had a very poor year last year, and yes Duchene did too, but Kulemin didnt play less then 40 games healthy, he played 70 games, and had 28 points. And despite what Leafs fans seem to think, Gardiner isnt a surefire Top Pairing Dman, not even close. There's still alot of risk with him, aswell as Kulemin.

And theres also no denying that if the Leafs were to make this trade, AND pick up Luongo as the rumors say is still a strong possibility, that Leafs 1st and 2nd will at BEST, be 16-20 and 46-50 range, and could easily be worse.

Duchene Centering Kessel and Lupul, with a Top 10 goalie in Luongo backstopping the team, yea the Leafs would be ALOT better.
Huh. If Gardiner sucks, Kulemin sucks, and the Leafs are going to be totes awesome next year so the picks are garbage, why do you want to do that trade?

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10-05-2012, 06:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
4 - Comparing Duchene to Kessel head to head, Duchene. Duchene put up 67 points as a 19 year old, Kessel put up 37 points. When Kessel was 20, he put up 60, but that was while playing with Savard who had almost 90 points that year. Duchene was the offensive leader on his team as a 19 year old. Meaning Duchene raised the stats of his linemates, whereas Kessel had his stats inflated by Savard.
Really? This again? I guess that's why Kessel hasn't even come close to 30 goals with the Leafs; Savard was setting him up with tap-ins the entire year.

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10-05-2012, 07:24 PM
  #95
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Borderline, at best. Kessel has been good throughout his career, and he just had a career year that suggests he might be taking the next step, but until he can reproduce it we're talking about one great season, and a bunch of good ones. That is not an elite player. The simple fact is you need to use this last season to prop your argument up, because without it you don't have a leg to stand on. 327 points in 456 games are not elite numbers.

For Kessel to be categorized as elite, in my opinion, based on(primarily) his one great season, then that one great season should be something special. 50 goals or 100 points special.
Many players have been called elite for equal or lesser achievements. Even borderline elite is a hell of a lot more than Duchene has accomplished, even more-so when you compare the situation of their careers thus far. And that is the point. I don't care about how you characterize categories of players. If those are your criteria, then do it for all players involved.

The simple fact is you need to take out this best season to prop your argument up, because without it you don't have a leg to stand on. 83 points in 139 games are not elite numbers.

Kessel is better, has accomplished a hell of a lot more, and is more valuable than Duchene.

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10-05-2012, 07:29 PM
  #96
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To all the Avs fans saying it would take a big overpayment to move Duchene, I think any team would be foolish to trade for him for anything more than slight underpayment. Sure he has this great draft position, and he had one pretty good season, but he's also far from a proven quantity. Injuries or not he tanked last year and we don't really know who the real Duchene is. I'm not trading my franchise player for a question mark.

As for this silly argument about whether Kessel is elite or not, that term is pretty subjective. What I do know is that Kessel has single handedly carried a very poor Leafs offense for some time now, and I don't see him being moved anytime soon. Leaf fans trying to argue that we're deep on wing but then name off guys like MacArthur and Frattin as top sixers need to have their heads checked.

Overall it's pretty obvious that the Avs should just keep Duchene until they find out what they really have. Nobody sane is going to give anything close to what they think he's worth.

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10-05-2012, 07:34 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Many players have been called elite for equal or lesser achievements. Even borderline elite is a hell of a lot more than Duchene has accomplished, even more-so when you compare the situation of their careers thus far. And that is the point. I don't care about how you characterize categories of players. If those are your criteria, then do it for all players involved.

The simple fact is you need to take out this best season to prop your argument up, because without it you don't have a leg to stand on. 83 points in 139 games are not elite numbers.

Kessel is better, has accomplished a hell of a lot more, and is more valuable than Duchene.
QFT. It's ridiculous to say "if I take away this 25 yo's best season then he's not as good as you say!" If you want to play that game then take away Duchene's best year and he's on average like a 40 point player.

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10-05-2012, 07:40 PM
  #98
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QFT. It's ridiculous to say "if I take away this 25 yo's best season then he's not as good as you say!" If you want to play that game then take away Duchene's best year and he's on average like a 40 point player.
I love how a few Leaf fans seem to be conveniently ignoring things like age. Just a heads up, Kessel was not a superstar yet at 21 either. Probably, cause, ya know, they are 21 :

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10-05-2012, 07:43 PM
  #99
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Many players have been called elite for equal or lesser achievements. Even borderline elite is a hell of a lot more than Duchene has accomplished, even more-so when you compare the situation of their careers thus far. And that is the point. I don't care about how you characterize categories of players. If those are your criteria, then do it for all players involved.

The simple fact is you need to take out this best season to prop your argument up, because without it you don't have a leg to stand on. 83 points in 139 games are not elite numbers.

Kessel is better, has accomplished a hell of a lot more, and is more valuable than Duchene.
I've never called Duchene an elite player, so I don't see how that argument works.

You're overlooking the biggest argument in Duchene's favor: Age

You're making an argument as if everything was equal. It isn't. I doubt anyone will dispute that Kessel, in six seasons, has accomplished more than Duchene in his three. You would expect Kessel to be entering his prime, while Duchene still has a bit of developing to do. Much of Duchene's value stems from his youth. He's 21 years old, and he already has two good seasons under his belt. Historical precedence suggests that he will continue to get better. How much better might he be when he's 25?

So, your statement that Kessel is better, and has accomplished more, doesn't tell the whole story. Kessel is four years older, with six years of NHL experience. As for their value, that's debatable. An equally talented center is almost always more valuable than a winger, and the difference between Kessel and Duchene isn't significant enough to not consider age and position.

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10-05-2012, 07:48 PM
  #100
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QFT. It's ridiculous to say "if I take away this 25 yo's best season then he's not as good as you say!" If you want to play that game then take away Duchene's best year and he's on average like a 40 point player.
When you're trying to make an argument that a player is elite, one PPG season isn't going to do it.

Furthermore, Duchene has 3 years under his belt. Kessel has six. A better argument might be someone like Corey Perry. Take away his best season, and what is he? He's certainly not held in quite the same regard, and his career year absolutely destroys Kessel's.

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