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Phx/edm

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Old
10-05-2012, 07:11 PM
  #1
CanadienKid25
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Phx/edm

While reading the PHX-WSH thread, I thought of a deal that might work with Edmonton. It may have been done before but I am not sure (my bad if it has). I think if Phoenix moves any defenceman, its Rundblad, not Gormley/OEL/Yandle. With that being said:

To PHX: Gagner

To EDM: Rundblad + Conditional #2 (2013/2014 EDM choice)


I think it fits the needs of both teams and the value is fair in my opinion.

Once again, if it has been proposed before, my bad. Please try to keep responses constructive. Thoughts?


Last edited by CanadienKid25: 10-05-2012 at 07:36 PM. Reason: alcohol ;)...meant a 13/14 pick, ty
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Old
10-05-2012, 07:20 PM
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No reason for Edmonton to do this. As much as Gagner gets hated on on this board, he is still a decent #2 center, and if Edmonton moves him that leaves... Horcoff to be #2 center? Eww. As good as Rundblad is, I don't think it's a big enough incentive for Edmonton to lose Gagner. They already have some nice young D like Schultz and Klefbom. No need to create a hole for something that is not really nesscessary.

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10-05-2012, 07:20 PM
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The value isn't far off.

But the Oil need a 2nd line center more than they need a good defensive prospect.

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Old
10-05-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienKid25 View Post
While reading the PHX-WSH thread, I thought of a deal that might work with Edmonton. It may have been done before but I am not sure (my bad if it has). I think if Phoenix moves any defenceman, its Rundblad, not Gormley/OEL/Yandle. With that being said:

To PHX: Gagner

To EDM: Rundblad + Conditional #2 (2012/2013 EDM choice)


I think it fits the needs of both teams and the value is fair in my opinion.

Once again, if it has been proposed before, my bad. Please try to keep responses constructive. Thoughts?
Well, I guess that we have to go back in time to do it, because you proposed a 2012 2nd.

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10-05-2012, 07:36 PM
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Overpayment by Phoenix.

Yes Gagner is a decent, proven young player and Rundblad has done squat but considering the Coyotes traded Turris for him they would not trade Rundblad for Gagner.

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10-05-2012, 07:50 PM
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CanadienKid25
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Originally Posted by ducky View Post
Overpayment by Phoenix.

Yes Gagner is a decent, proven young player and Rundblad has done squat but considering the Coyotes traded Turris for him they would not trade Rundblad for Gagner.
I thought it was pretty much consensus that Turris forced their hand...and Phoenix did receive a 2nd as well

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10-05-2012, 08:07 PM
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No thanks from this Phoenix fan. I like Gagner and all but he's not the actual solution to our center problem. If we are going to settle for a bandaid we can secure one much more cheaply. I say keep Rundblad and give up a far less valuable asset for a guy like Tim Connolly or Matthew Lombardi. There are plenty of centers out there with the potential to score 40 points (or at least close to it) that won't cost us a blue chip prospect. I understand Gagner has more upside than 40pts but I just font see him as the answer. Not at that price.

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10-05-2012, 08:21 PM
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So Pheonix trades exactly what they got for Turris (i.e. Rundblad + 2nd) for Gagner, in effect trading Turris for Gagner? If they wanted Gagner, they could have just traded Turris straight up for him, but I think most of us can realistically agree that Turris > Gagner, both currently and in upside, especially when you consider 2-way game and faceoff ability.

The OP is overpayment by Pheonix.

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10-05-2012, 08:42 PM
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CanadienKid25
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
So Pheonix trades exactly what they got for Turris (i.e. Rundblad + 2nd) for Gagner, in effect trading Turris for Gagner? If they wanted Gagner, they could have just traded Turris straight up for him, but I think most of us can realistically agree that Turris > Gagner, both currently and in upside, especially when you consider 2-way game and faceoff ability.

The OP is overpayment by Pheonix.
It's a fair assessment. The 2nd they received (45th overall) would most likely be better than what they trade away, but the trade does come close to a Turris for Gagner. Before this season, I would have thought it was close, but as you stated, Turris has passed Gagner. I think Gagner for Turris is a trade that may have been made instead of the PHX/OTT trade, but that is hindsight now as Turris's value is noe more clearly defined. It may look bad for Phoenix if they do the Rundblad + 2nd for Gagner, but I think pride gets in the way if you do not do it because of a previous trade. If you lost a previous trade, cut your losses and move on. Do not let it hinder your ability to make another trade.

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10-05-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
So Pheonix trades exactly what they got for Turris (i.e. Rundblad + 2nd) for Gagner, in effect trading Turris for Gagner? If they wanted Gagner, they could have just traded Turris straight up for him, but I think most of us can realistically agree that Turris > Gagner, both currently and in upside, especially when you consider 2-way game and faceoff ability.

The OP is overpayment by Pheonix.
Im still not sure why people still think Turris > Gagner when Turris has never matched Gagner in the NHL, let alone surpassed him. At what point does his "potential" actually need to show itself?

And no to the OP, Rundblad would be nice, but the Oil need Gagner more. Not to mention Gagner is already a decent #2 C, whereas Rundblad hasnt cracked the NHL yet, and even if he does he isnt a lock to be a #3 D or better

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10-05-2012, 09:10 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Neatman View Post
Im still not sure why people still think Turris > Gagner when Turris has never matched Gagner in the NHL, let alone surpassed him. At what point does his "potential" actually need to show itself?

And no to the OP, Rundblad would be nice, but the Oil need Gagner more. Not to mention Gagner is already a decent #2 C, whereas Rundblad hasnt cracked the NHL yet, and even if he does he isnt a lock to be a #3 D or better
I see your point there, in my opinion Gagner has had the chances and should have shown more at this point in his career. Turris was given the chance in Ottawa and has shown more of what critics have wanted to see(flash and potential). I was hoping the conditional #2 in what is suppose to be a deeper draft year(yes, I know they hype the draft every year) would make an enticing deal. As to the point of "At what point does his "potential" actually need to show itself?", I think Turris has shown enough to warrant such a deal. If I were rating his potential reached out of 10, I would give him a 7.5.

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10-05-2012, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Neatman View Post
Im still not sure why people still think Turris > Gagner when Turris has never matched Gagner in the NHL, let alone surpassed him. At what point does his "potential" actually need to show itself?

And no to the OP, Rundblad would be nice, but the Oil need Gagner more. Not to mention Gagner is already a decent #2 C, whereas Rundblad hasnt cracked the NHL yet, and even if he does he isnt a lock to be a #3 D or better
Turris last year for the Senators was better than Gagner has ever been ever.

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10-05-2012, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
So Pheonix trades exactly what they got for Turris (i.e. Rundblad + 2nd) for Gagner, in effect trading Turris for Gagner? If they wanted Gagner, they could have just traded Turris straight up for him, but I think most of us can realistically agree that Turris > Gagner, both currently and in upside, especially when you consider 2-way game and faceoff ability.

The OP is overpayment by Pheonix.
It is fair to so that Turris and Gagner have similar value. But what has Turris proven so far? His attitude towards the team that drafted him forcing a trade below value?

Turris 23 yrs old- 186 gp 75 points

Gagner 23 yrs old- 366 gp 220 points

Gagner came into the league as rookie (Also the youngest) and tallied 49 points.

And say what you want, but any player putting up 8 points in post 80s hockey is very impressive. If Gagner finally finds consistency his upside will be much higher.

Put Turris on a line with talent like Moreau or Cogliano and see how well he performs.

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10-05-2012, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
It is fair to so that Turris and Gagner have similar value. But what has Turris proven so far? His attitude towards the team that drafted him forcing a trade below value?

Turris 23 yrs old- 186 gp 75 points

Gagner 23 yrs old- 366 gp 220 points

Gagner came into the league as rookie (Also the youngest) and tallied 49 points.

And say what you want, but any player putting up 8 points in post 80s hockey is very impressive. If Gagner finally finds consistency his upside will be much higher.

Put Turris on a line with talent like Moreau or Cogliano and see how well he performs.
who cares about career, Turris is a late bloomer, Gagner is a young bloomer.

Last year, Turris > Gagner ever

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10-05-2012, 09:31 PM
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who cares about career, Turris is a late bloomer, Gagner is a young bloomer.

Last year, Turris > Gagner ever
Yah Turris is so great he might even break 30 points next season! But I guess who needs offense when you have Alfie, Spezza, Michalek and Karlsson..

Soon enough Zibanejad will take his roster spot. When that happens we can return to this argument over who is the better 2nd line center.

And for the record, Gagner has been training with Crosby and his trainer over the summer. He is up to 195-200lbs. My money is still on Gagner, Turris is just a stop-gap for better prospects.

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10-05-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Yah Turris is so great he might even break 30 points next season! But I guess who needs offense when you have Alfie, Spezza, Michalek and Karlsson..

Soon enough Zibanejad will take his roster spot. When that happens we can return to this argument over who is the better 2nd line center.

And for the record, Gagner has been training with Crosby and his trainer over the summer. He is up to 195-200lbs. My money is still on Gagner, Turris is just a stop-gap for better prospects.
Turris is a shutdown centre and Ottawa's 2nd best defensive forward behind Alfredsson.

They are similar offensively, but Gagner can't touch Turris' overall contributions. Turris puts up his points while playing against likes of Stamkos, Giroux, etc. And he contributes positively, scoring more goals than he allows. Same can't be said about Gagner, who plays sheltered minutes as well.

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10-05-2012, 09:48 PM
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Sheltered minutes??? The vast majority of offensive zone starts were given to RNH last year. And he put up 8 points against Chicago and 2 days later had 3 points against Detroit. He set an Oil record with 11 consecutive points. He would have had a much better year if it wasn't for RNH getting the sheltered minutes.

And by tough competition do you mean the Leafs and Canadiens who finished 26th and 28th last year? Try sharing a division with the President's cup winners.

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10-05-2012, 09:52 PM
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Sheltered minutes??? The vast majority of offensive zone starts were given to RNH last year. And he put up 8 points against Chicago and 2 days later had 3 points against Detroit. He set an Oil record with 11 consecutive points. He would have had a much better year if it wasn't for RNH getting the sheltered minutes.

And by tough competition do you mean the Leafs and Canadiens who finished 26th and 28th last year? Try sharing a division with the President's cup winners.
2 great games are supposed to convince me? Really?

Gagner played sheltered minutes against 3rd and 4th lines while Turris was playing against Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, as mentioned. Stop speed reading, you're missing stuff

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10-05-2012, 09:57 PM
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2 great games are supposed to convince me? Really?

Gagner played sheltered minutes against 3rd and 4th lines while Turris was playing against Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, as mentioned. Stop speed reading, you're missing stuff
Edmonton likes Gagner, doesn't need Rundblad and a 2nd.

Gagner is the 2nd highest scorer from his draft, and will likely be flanked by Hemsky and Yakupov or Hall if we have an NHL season this year. Will that inflate his stats? Absolutely.

That said, has he performed, with weak players? Absolutely.

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10-05-2012, 09:57 PM
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Turris is definitly ottawa's better defensive players, although i really think he plays too defensive and hurts his offence. hopefully he learns to manage better as hes got some elite offensive tools.

Turris GAA/60 = 1.80

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10-05-2012, 10:17 PM
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No deal from Edmonton.


Gagner has high value, yes i said it HF. He has good value. he's 23 and a 50 point center playing with scrubs..(Well not anymore..)

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10-05-2012, 11:21 PM
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Rundblad is a luxury for us, before adding Schultz this may have made sense for us, now IMO it doesn't.

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10-06-2012, 01:24 AM
  #23
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No way Edmonton touches this deal. Runblad is probably just as close to being a top-4 d-man as Klefbom and Edmonton already has young puck movers in Petry and Schultz. Oil fans will puke blood at the thought of Horcoff playing 2nd line center again.

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10-06-2012, 01:48 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
2 great games are supposed to convince me? Really?

Gagner played sheltered minutes against 3rd and 4th lines while Turris was playing against Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, as mentioned. Stop speed reading, you're missing stuff
You should know better than this. It's really inaccurate. Sam Gagner played the 2nd toughest competition of all centers on the Oilers and outshot the other team by a fair margin despite only having a modest 54% or so ozone start. Turris and Gagner according to the player usage charts were used in almost exactly the same scenario. Turris and Gagner last year shared very similar QoC rating, ZS%, and CorsiRel. The difference is that Gagner played on a worse team and not always with quality players where as Turris was on a playoff team. Gagner still managed to have the better ppg this season as he has every season thus far since their draft year. Hilariously one poster even made up the argument that Turris is better in the dot despite the fact that Gagner actually had a slightly better FO percentage last season. So tell me exactly how Gagner was sheltered when he played literally the exact same minutes as Turris and actually had better results in almost every tangiable stat? Turris only has him beat in +/- and it's not by much despite being on the much better team (+5 compared to +10).

At the end of the day Gagner scored better and had a similar +/- and Corsi rating on a worse team while facing very similar level competion and ZS%. Even in terms of faceoffs Gagner has the edge, and Gagner is also clearly the grittier tougher player. So i would have to argue claims of Turris' superiority in terms of everything not to do with offense is rather ridiculously overstated. Turris is a better skater with a better shot but outside of that there isn't anything tangiable to support claims of his superiority.

Also Gagner has been forced to play the tough minutes before. In the 2009-10 season the Penner-Gagner-Brule line was relied upon very heavily for two way play and was easily the teams best forward unit, albeit the team was just putrid. Penner and Brule for the record enjoyed career seasons playing with Gagner, despite the often tough minutes (Horcoff was hurt at times that year with a bum shoulder, he played through it but in the second half of the year was used more sparingly iirc). Gagner didn't always get the toughest forward matchups that year but as the #1 center he got the other teams top defenseman matched against him. Gagner for his age has been nothing short of very solid in his NHL career and has done everything Turris every has and then some, and it's not even debatable as it's a fact according to the stats. Turris may be the better player but any claims of proof to validate such claims are either fabricated, like this doozy, or overvalued to a ridiculous notion.


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Old
10-06-2012, 01:58 AM
  #25
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