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Old
10-06-2012, 08:44 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienKid25 View Post
It's a fair assessment. The 2nd they received (45th overall) would most likely be better than what they trade away, but the trade does come close to a Turris for Gagner. Before this season, I would have thought it was close, but as you stated, Turris has passed Gagner. I think Gagner for Turris is a trade that may have been made instead of the PHX/OTT trade, but that is hindsight now as Turris's value is noe more clearly defined. It may look bad for Phoenix if they do the Rundblad + 2nd for Gagner, but I think pride gets in the way if you do not do it because of a previous trade. If you lost a previous trade, cut your losses and move on. Do not let it hinder your ability to make another trade.
I apologize if there was any offense taken by Oilers fans (not that you implied that at all), but I appreciate the non-confrontational attitude, considering that you are the OP, and most people on here spit acid when anyone dares to disagree with their proposal. Cheers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neatman View Post
Im still not sure why people still think Turris > Gagner when Turris has never matched Gagner in the NHL, let alone surpassed him. At what point does his "potential" actually need to show itself?

And no to the OP, Rundblad would be nice, but the Oil need Gagner more. Not to mention Gagner is already a decent #2 C, whereas Rundblad hasnt cracked the NHL yet, and even if he does he isnt a lock to be a #3 D or better
If Gagner was a good enough 2C, Oilers fans wouldn't be saying repeatedly on here that their biggest need (or at least that a hole that they have) is 2C. So they aren't as sold on Gagner as they would have you beleive.

Also, I think they should be looking more at D and G. They have enough young potentially star forwards. As for your first question, Turris > Gagner because if you take away the 8 point fluke game, where at the end they were just putting him with their stars and trying to get him as many points as possible, and the 3 or 4 points from the following game, he's at best a 30-40 point forward, who is soft, whose defensive game is sorely lacking, and who stinks in the faceoff circle (pretty important part of the game for a centre I'd say). You take those two games away, their offensive numbers are similar, but Turris' 2-way game far trumps Gagner's. You add to that that Turris didn't have a training camp last year (possibly not this year either, with the lockout), and the bulk he's put on in the offseason as he's been directed to, and it increases his value all the more. And this is coming from someone that hated the trade for the Sens when we acquired him, but he's sold me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
It is fair to so that Turris and Gagner have similar value. But what has Turris proven so far? His attitude towards the team that drafted him forcing a trade below value?

Turris 23 yrs old- 186 gp 75 points

Gagner 23 yrs old- 366 gp 220 points

Gagner came into the league as rookie (Also the youngest) and tallied 49 points.

And say what you want, but any player putting up 8 points in post 80s hockey is very impressive. If Gagner finally finds consistency his upside will be much higher.

Put Turris on a line with talent like Moreau or Cogliano and see how well he performs.
Turris has been great. He's played a lot of the time with Alfie, who is great, but is also 40 years old, and usually some third liner on his other wing. He's been great all over the ice, and a great teammate off of it as well, and has been involved in the community and charities in Ottawa.

Funny how Turris gets flack for wanting out of Pheonix when the coach wasn't using him properly (putting him with scrubs on the 3rd and 4th line and cutting his ice time, when he clearly has the talent and needs top 6 minutes to develop), and not a guy like Heatley, who has been traded 3 times (demanded a trade 2 of those times, and the other time the team got rid of him at their first opportunity), and is making 7.5 mill to be a 20 goal guy (and declining from there).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Yah Turris is so great he might even break 30 points next season! But I guess who needs offense when you have Alfie, Spezza, Michalek and Karlsson..

Soon enough Zibanejad will take his roster spot. When that happens we can return to this argument over who is the better 2nd line center.

And for the record, Gagner has been training with Crosby and his trainer over the summer. He is up to 195-200lbs. My money is still on Gagner, Turris is just a stop-gap for better prospects.
We do have good roster players, and great prospects like Zibby and Silfverberg. But if you actually think that his spot will be taken, you don't know enough of our prospects, since Zibanejad can play center or more likely will be on the wing, and Silfv is a winger as well. Not to mention, that, you know, our GM just signed Turris to a long-term extension, and that Bryan Murray knows far more about hockey and these players than both you and I put together.

Now, lets please get this back on topic, that being the OP, not Turris vs. Gagner.

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Old
10-06-2012, 09:20 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post

If Gagner was a good enough 2C, Oilers fans wouldn't be saying repeatedly on here that their biggest need (or at least that a hole that they have) is 2C. So they aren't as sold on Gagner as they would have you beleive. that hated the trade for the Sens when we acquired him, but he's sold me.
It's not that tons of Oil fans want a better 2nd line center it's just that several Oil fans want a bigger second line center. None of our centres really have any size and none of our top 6 forwards have any size, either.

On top of that, Hall-Hopkins-Eberle is a line that nobody wants to see broken up and before the drafting of Yakupov that left Gagner, our second line center, without a sniper. I'm convinced that Gagner could consistently put up 20+ goals on a year to year basis playing on the second line if there was an actual center on his line. We'll find out next season.

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Old
10-06-2012, 10:15 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
You should know better than this. It's really inaccurate. Sam Gagner played the 2nd toughest competition of all centers on the Oilers and outshot the other team by a fair margin despite only having a modest 54% or so ozone start. Turris and Gagner according to the player usage charts were used in almost exactly the same scenario.Turris and Gagner last year shared very similar QoC rating, ZS%, and CorsiRel. The difference is that Gagner played on a worse team and not always with quality players where as Turris was on a playoff team. Gagner still managed to have the better ppg this season as he has every season thus far since their draft year. Hilariously one poster even made up the argument that Turris is better in the dot despite the fact that Gagner actually had a slightly better FO percentage last season. So tell me exactly how Gagner was sheltered when he played literally the exact same minutes as Turris and actually had better results in almost every tangiable stat? Turris only has him beat in +/- and it's not by much despite being on the much better team (+5 compared to +10).
Wrong. Gagner had the 3rd toughest competition among Oiler centres behind Horcoff obviously and RNH. Turris on the other hand had the highest quality of competition among all Sens forwards.

You can't use QoC numbers to compare between teams, just on the same team. Turris played against top notch competition, while Gagner played against weaker players than Horcoff and RNH (hence the ''sheltered'').

Despite this, Turris had a better +/- per 60 min of ice time.

Gagner had a good Corsi. So what
-He did it against weak competition
-Paajarvi had a good Corsi, but he was sent to the AHL because he wasn't good enough

Gagner's #1 linemate was Ales hemsky, #2 was Taylor Hall, #3 Jordan Eberle Don't give me BS about bad linemates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
At the end of the day Gagner scored better and had a similar +/- and Corsi rating on a worse team while facing very similar level competion and ZS%. Even in terms of faceoffs Gagner has the edge, and Gagner is also clearly the grittier tougher player. So i would have to argue claims of Turris' superiority in terms of everything not to do with offense is rather ridiculously overstated. Turris is a better skater with a better shot but outside of that there isn't anything tangiable to support claims of his superiority.
Never said Turris was better offensively, don't know why you keep arguing that.

FYI, Turris had a Corsi of 11 and Gagner of -3. They are only similar if you use Relative Corsi, which takes the number and subtracts the team average, adjusting the numbers for the team. Gagner compared to Oilers is equal to Turris compared to the Sens... Sens >>> Oilers, therefore, Turris > Gagner

Tangible things that indicate superiority:
-better +/- adjusted to ice time
-higher Corsi, similar Rel Corsi on a better team
-#1 highest quality of competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Also Gagner has been forced to play the tough minutes before. In the 2009-10 season the Penner-Gagner-Brule line was relied upon very heavily for two way play and was easily the teams best forward unit, albeit the team was just putrid. Penner and Brule for the record enjoyed career seasons playing with Gagner, despite the often tough minutes (Horcoff was hurt at times that year with a bum shoulder, he played through it but in the second half of the year was used more sparingly iirc). Gagner didn't always get the toughest forward matchups that year but as the #1 center he got the other teams top defenseman matched against him. Gagner for his age has been nothing short of very solid in his NHL career and has done everything Turris every has and then some, and it's not even debatable as it's a fact according to the stats. Turris may be the better player but any claims of proof to validate such claims are either fabricated, like this doozy, or overvalued to a ridiculous notion.
Dude, that line was the most sheltered of them all during that season. Check out your precious QoC numbers. Gagner was 14th among Oiler forwards. Credibility lost.

Top pairing defensemen are usually considered ''good competition'', therefore if he was matched against them, he would have higher QoC. I'd bet on Horcoff - Hemsky attracting the tough competition that season.

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Old
10-06-2012, 10:42 AM
  #29
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If I was Phoenix, I wouldn't do it. He wouldn't work well in their system and Gagner feeds off of skilled forwards, something Phoenix doesn't have very many of.

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Old
10-06-2012, 10:47 AM
  #30
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gagner>turris
end of story.
you would think the higher draft pick would be better, but no. turris is a bust, let me know when he cracks 30 pts in an nhl season. mps>turris omark>turris gagner>turris.

turris just doesnt seem to have what it takes to be a high profile nhl'r unlike his draft position would suggest.

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10-06-2012, 10:48 AM
  #31
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Before Schultz I would have probably done this. The Oilers really needed a top offensive dman prospect.

Now no way. It would be like the Ricky Ray trade. Want a guy gone soo bad, trade him, then realize nothing else you have is even close to as good.

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10-06-2012, 10:48 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oillio View Post
gagner>turris
end of story.
you would think the higher draft pick would be better, but no. turris is a bust, let me know when he cracks 30 pts in an nhl season. mps>turris omark>turris gagner>turris.

turris just doesnt seem to have what it takes to be a high profile nhl'r unlike his draft position would suggest.
Turris being the 2nd line centre on a playoff team automatically makes him a better player than all those guys.

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10-06-2012, 10:56 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neatman View Post
Im still not sure why people still think Turris > Gagner when Turris has never matched Gagner in the NHL, let alone surpassed him. At what point does his "potential" actually need to show itself?

And no to the OP, Rundblad would be nice, but the Oil need Gagner more. Not to mention Gagner is already a decent #2 C, whereas Rundblad hasnt cracked the NHL yet, and even if he does he isnt a lock to be a #3 D or better
it's because he has yet to show much in the NHL that he's still considered to be..
Turris > Gagner...people have convinced themselves the best is still to come, where as Gagner has had many 40 + point seasons and people have convinced themselves that they have seen Gagner's best and he won't get much better...that and the fact Turris was taken so high at #3 overall, there must be something there. of course, Cam Barker was taken 3rd overall too...just sayin'

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10-06-2012, 11:00 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManByng View Post
it's because he has yet to show much in the NHL that he's still considered to be..
Turris > Gagner...people have convinced themselves the best is still to come, where as Gagner has had many 40 + point seasons and people have convinced themselves that they have seen Gagner's best and he won't get much better...that and the fact Turris was taken so high at #3 overall, there must be something there. of course, Cam Barker was taken 3rd overall too...just sayin'
Also, Turris is a better player right now

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Old
10-06-2012, 11:08 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Also, Turris is a better player right now
but how can he be when he's done very little in the NHL points wise?

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10-06-2012, 11:17 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ManByng View Post
but how can he be when he's done very little in the NHL points wise?
Let's look at 2011-12. Not the previous seasons because Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.

Turris had 29 points in 49 games for the Sens. Good for a 0.592 points per game.

Gagner had 47 points in 75 games. Good for 0.627 points per game.

Negligible difference offensively. Turris put up these numbers while being the Senators most important defensive forward and playing shutdown against the likes of Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux and Malkin. If he only had offense to focus on, he could have easily scored more than Gagner. Turris has no 11 points in 2 games to fall back on either, which quite inflated Gagner's numbers above where they should be.

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10-06-2012, 11:28 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Let's look at 2011-12. Not the previous seasons because Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.

Turris had 29 points in 49 games for the Sens. Good for a 0.592 points per game.

Gagner had 47 points in 75 games. Good for 0.627 points per game.

Negligible difference offensively. Turris put up these numbers while being the Senators most important defensive forward and playing shutdown against the likes of Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux and Malkin. If he only had offense to focus on, he could have easily scored more than Gagner. Turris has no 11 points in 2 games to fall back on either, which quite inflated Gagner's numbers above where they should be.
where they should be? or where they have been so far in a young career, playing with sometimes less than great wingers? Gagner should really shine this year as the Oil's 2nd line center, apparently playing with Nail on one side and Hemsky on the other. Gagner has apparently also gotten faster this off season and much stronger thanks to an intense training schedule with a pro trainer and a power skating instructor. i just need to see more than one partial season of good play from Turris.

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Old
10-06-2012, 11:37 AM
  #38
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Edmonton's QoC chart (TOI)
Ottawa's QoC chart (TOI)

Gagner scored more than Turris at even strength in both raw totals (24 vs. 35) and when you adjust for TOI (1.74 vs. 1.96). This despite facing tougher forwards and defencemen.

Edmonton would not want to trade Gagner without lining up another 2C, nor would they feel a burning desire to acquire a prospect. If Edmonton is making a trade for a defenceman, they would want to be sure he'd step up now.

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Old
10-06-2012, 11:43 AM
  #39
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^like Keith Yandle?

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Old
10-06-2012, 12:04 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
Edmonton's QoC chart (TOI)
Ottawa's QoC chart (TOI)

Gagner scored more than Turris at even strength in both raw totals (24 vs. 35) and when you adjust for TOI (1.74 vs. 1.96). This despite facing tougher forwards and defencemen.

Edmonton would not want to trade Gagner without lining up another 2C, nor would they feel a burning desire to acquire a prospect. If Edmonton is making a trade for a defenceman, they would want to be sure he'd step up now.
Not exactly sure what those charts show. You didn't even explain them. All I know is that Gagner is behind Hemsky, Horcoff, Hall, Nuge, and Eberle.

Turris wasn't there for the whole season, so the Spezza line had his defensive responsibilty..
Turris had the highest quality of competition on the Sens, but you're right top shutdown defensemen played against Spezza

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10-06-2012, 12:05 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oillio View Post
gagner>turris
end of story.
you would think the higher draft pick would be better, but no. turris is a bust, let me know when he cracks 30 pts in an nhl season. mps>turris omark>turris gagner>turris.

turris just doesnt seem to have what it takes to be a high profile nhl'r unlike his draft position would suggest.
you mad bro

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Old
10-06-2012, 12:23 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Not exactly sure what those charts show. You didn't even explain them. All I know is that Gagner is behind Hemsky, Horcoff, Hall, Nuge, and Eberle.

Turris wasn't there for the whole season, so the Spezza line had his defensive responsibilty..
Turris had the highest quality of competition on the Sens, but you're right top shutdown defensemen played against Spezza
This is a new QoC measure. Traditional QoC measures will punish a player like Duncan Keith. QoC TOI seeks to prevent that. If a player isn't very good, they don't get much TOI, therefore the players that lead in TOI are the toughest competition.

Gagner faced far tougher defencemen, potentially reducing his offense relative to Turris. Gagner also faced slightly tougher forwards, rejecting the notion that Turris played in a significantly more difficult shutdown role. Turris did face tougher Zonestarts but Gagner was only 2 percentage points behind.

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Old
10-06-2012, 12:24 PM
  #43
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WOW
another thread that morphed!
FWIW
Turris ended up playing with Doan and Boedker in the 2011 playoffs, so it can not be said that he didn't play with skilled forwrds, and 1 poster said that Turris plays defense? Well if he does, I guess he did learn something from Tippet!
BTW
The Coyotes became a better team after they traded Turris, that 2nd was significant! Vermette is a lot better player than Turris...

anyways
Don't see the Oilers wanting to make the trade in the OP's originally scenario. I doubt the Coyotes feel that Gags is enough of a missing piece to let go of those assets.

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Old
10-06-2012, 12:39 PM
  #44
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Gagner is what he is, a 40-50 point player with large deficiencies in his game. I think it's pretty easy to see why people would rather take a chance on Turris. Oiler fans keep telling us Gagner is going to break out but at what point do you just accept what he is?

In regards to the trade, Phoenix does not consider it, they have the potential to have a really special group of defensemen, I don't think Gagner is the type of guy you give up any of it for.

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10-06-2012, 12:45 PM
  #45
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I don't know if Phoenix would do the trade but I do believe that Gagner is worth a lot more than Turris at this point

People need to re-evaluate their expectations of a #2C if they think Gagner's offensive production isn't there. If he can become better at FOs and improve his defensive game, he could be a fantastic #2C.

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10-06-2012, 12:58 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
This is a new QoC measure. Traditional QoC measures will punish a player like Duncan Keith. QoC TOI seeks to prevent that. If a player isn't very good, they don't get much TOI, therefore the players that lead in TOI are the toughest competition.

Gagner faced far tougher defencemen, potentially reducing his offense relative to Turris. Gagner also faced slightly tougher forwards, rejecting the notion that Turris played in a significantly more difficult shutdown role. Turris did face tougher Zonestarts but Gagner was only 2 percentage points behind.
That's not true. Girardi has more ice time than McDonagh, but is not better. j-Bo has a freakish amount of ice time, but is horrible. There are many more examples.

Keith is not hurt by regular quality of competition, he leads the Hawks.

Gagner faced the 2nd toughest defensemen, just like Turris. What you're saying is not true.

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10-06-2012, 01:03 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Gagner is what he is, a 40-50 point player with large deficiencies in his game. I think it's pretty easy to see why people would rather take a chance on Turris. Oiler fans keep telling us Gagner is going to break out but at what point do you just accept what he is?
They were drafted in the same freaking year and only one of them has shown he can score in the NHL. As someone who watches Phoenix, I like Turris, and think he's a great player, but he hasn't proven **** compared to Gagner. If Gagner simply is a 40-50 point guy, Turris is a 20-30 point guy.

And to address OP's "Turris is a late bloomer" point, look no farther than Gagner's own father. I'm willing to bet Gagner takes a bigger next step than Turris (and he's already miles ahead)

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10-06-2012, 01:07 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
2 great games are supposed to convince me? Really?

Gagner played sheltered minutes against 3rd and 4th lines while Turris was playing against Giroux, Stamkos, Malkin, Tavares, as mentioned. Stop speed reading, you're missing stuff
Question for you . What are 3rd and 4th lines used for ? They are used to shut down the other teams scorers and provide energy by hitting and play sound D . I would say it would be easier to put up points against a first line then a 3rd line . First line players are more for an offence threat and pay less attention to the D side of the game...in most cases

Look at the playoffs , a coach is always trying to get his first line away from the checkers . Your point would make Gagner the better player on offence and would show Tussis to be the better checker . Which has been said . Gagner Offence > then Turris ... Turris defence > has more value the Gagner . Leaving the value up in the air . For me i will take Gagner 10 times out of 10 and twice on Sunday

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:08 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
I don't know if Phoenix would do the trade but I do believe that Gagner is worth a lot more than Turris at this point

People need to re-evaluate their expectations of a #2C if they think Gagner's offensive production isn't there. If he can become better at FOs and improve his defensive game, he could be a fantastic #2C.
Turris is just as good if not better offensively.

Turris is much better defensively.

Turris is a better player than Gagner.

Phoenix would not trade the same package they got for Turris for a worse player than Turris.

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10-06-2012, 01:11 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Turris is just as good if not better offensively.

Turris is much better defensively.

Turris is a better player than Gagner.

Phoenix would not trade the same package they got for Turris for a worse player than Turris.
Let us know what season he was better offensively. We are waiting with baited breath.

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