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Old
10-06-2012, 01:13 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
They were drafted in the same freaking year and only one of them has shown he can score in the NHL. As someone who watches Phoenix, I like Turris, and think he's a great player, but he hasn't proven **** compared to Gagner. If Gagner simply is a 40-50 point guy, Turris is a 20-30 point guy.

And to address OP's "Turris is a late bloomer" point, look no farther than Gagner's own father. I'm willing to bet Gagner takes a bigger next step than Turris (and he's already miles ahead)
I was going to point this out , beat me to it . It is funny how Turris can be a late bloomer ,but Gagner has already peaked

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10-06-2012, 01:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by supert View Post
Question for you . What are 3rd and 4th lines used for ? They are used to shut down the other teams scorers and provide energy by hitting and play sound D . I would say it would be easier to put up points against a first line then a 3rd line . First line players are more for an offence threat and pay less attention to the D side of the game...in most cases

Look at the playoffs , a coach is always trying to get his first line away from the checkers . Your point would make Gagner the better player on offence and would show Tussis to be the better checker . Which has been said . Gagner Offence > then Turris ... Turris defence > has more value the Gagner . Leaving the value up in the air . For me i will take Gagner 10 times out of 10 and twice on Sunday
You're wrong. Most teams play their 1st or 2nd lines against other top lines, and it's certainly easier to score against 3rd/4th lines than top 2 lines in general.

''Checkers'' are Datysuk, Kesler, Bergeron, Turris, Thornton, Richards, etc. Not 3rd line players.

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:19 PM
  #53
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So Turris is so good defensively that it makes up for the fact that he struggles to crack 25 points and 10 goals while being used in a top-6 position?

Okay... he better be Toews level defensively.

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SilverHaireDevil View Post
Let us know what season he was better offensively. We are waiting with baited breath.
Let's look at 2011-12. Not the previous seasons because Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.

Turris had 29 points in 49 games for the Sens. Good for a 0.592 points per game.

Gagner had 47 points in 75 games. Good for 0.627 points per game.

Negligible difference offensively. Turris put up these numbers while being the Senators most important defensive forward and playing shutdown against the likes of Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux and Malkin. If he only had offense to focus on, he could have easily scored more than Gagner. Turris has no 11 points in 2 games to fall back on either, which quite inflated Gagner's numbers above where they should be.


Take out the fluke 11 points in 2 games and Gagner goes down to 36 points in 73 games, less than 0.50 ppg.

If Gagner played against the likes of Thornton, Datsyuk and Sedin every game, he would not have the same point totals either.

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10-06-2012, 01:22 PM
  #55
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Sorry I forgot he obliterated that total last year with a staggering 29 points

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:24 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
Sorry I forgot he obliterated that total last year with a staggering 29 points
the fact that he only played 50 games means nothing ?

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10-06-2012, 01:25 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Security Guard Chang View Post
the fact that he only played 50 games means nothing ?
That wasn't the only year he's played in the NHL

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:33 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Turris is just as good if not better offensively.

Turris is much better defensively.

Turris is a better player than Gagner.

Phoenix would not trade the same package they got for Turris for a worse player than Turris.
Dude...you have to stop saying this. I need one season of proof, statistically, to show me that Turris is the better offensive player. Please don't tell me that he didn't have the chance in Phoenix. This guys was Phoenix's golden child for at least a couple of years. He was given every opportunity to succeed, yet failed miserably to fulfill his potential. Phoenix actually had him playing with Doan for some time and failed miserably. As a 3rd overall pick, I'd personally expect him to be more than a 2nd line, shut down C. That in itself is an oxymoron. If your 2nd line C is going to be your shutdown player, who, other than your first line is going to score for your team. Let Turris crack the 40 pt mark just once, and then we can talk about who's better offensively. Gagner almost has 3x the pts. being drafted in the same year.

This guy simply hasn't lived up to the hype. I would take Gagner, who is a consistent 40-50pt player on one of the worst team in the league over Turris any time of the day. Also, Gagner, with his small stature is much more physical than Turris, and is a much more of a team player.

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10-06-2012, 01:38 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephF View Post
That wasn't the only year he's played in the NHL
it was his first in a top six role

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:40 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Security Guard Chang View Post
it was his first in a top six role
I saw him play with Doan when he was in Pheonix. It failed miserably.

Gagners first chance in a top-6 role he got 50 points playing with Cogliano and Robert Nilsson.

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10-06-2012, 01:41 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
Dude...you have to stop saying this. I need one season of proof, statistically, to show me that Turris is the better offensive player.
Post #54.

If you don't agree about better, let's stick to just as good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
Please don't tell me that he didn't have the chance in Phoenix. This guys was Phoenix's golden child for at least a couple of years. He was given every opportunity to succeed, yet failed miserably to fulfill his potential. Phoenix actually had him playing with Doan for some time and failed miserably.
You don't know what you're talking about. They completely misused him, which is why he asked for a trade. He was healthy scratched a lot and played 4th line minutes. Dave Tippett is a great coach, but he missed the boat with Turris' development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
As a 3rd overall pick, I'd personally expect him to be more than a 2nd line, shut down C. That in itself is an oxymoron. If your 2nd line C is going to be your shutdown player, who, other than your first line is going to score for your team. Let Turris crack the 40 pt mark just once, and then we can talk about who's better offensively. Gagner almost has 3x the pts. being drafted in the same year.


Most teams use one of their top 2 lines as a shutdown matchup. Again, you have no clue.

Career doesn't matter. Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
This guy simply hasn't lived up to the hype. I would take Gagner, who is a consistent 40-50pt player on one of the worst team in the league over Turris any time of the day. Also, Gagner, with his small stature is much more physical than Turris, and is a much more of a team player.
A 40-50 point player is much less valuable than a 40-50 point shutdown centre.

lol at "much more physical".

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10-06-2012, 01:43 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephF View Post
I saw him play with Doan when he was in Pheonix. It failed miserably.

Gagners first chance in a top-6 role he got 50 points playing with Cogliano and Robert Nilsson.
Gagner never scored 50 points ever.

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10-06-2012, 01:44 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Gagner never scored 50 points ever.


49 points in 79 games

My mistake

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:46 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Security Guard Chang View Post
it was his first in a top six role
I'm sure he wasn't given top 6 opportunity in Phoenix. The poor guy had to earn his way with his hard work. C'mon, give me a break. Turris, as the 3rd overall player, has been a massive disappointment. He's just not a good 2nd line C. Probably one of the weakest 2nd line C's in the league.

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:48 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SephF View Post
So Turris is so good defensively that it makes up for the fact that he struggles to crack 25 points and 10 goals while being used in a top-6 position?

Okay... he better be Toews level defensively.
If Turris is good defensively why didn't Ottawa use him on the PK, you would think a team with the 20th PK in the league could use the help. You would also think a forward with good defensive skills would play a more physical game and block more shots.

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10-06-2012, 01:52 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Turris is just as good if not better offensively.

Turris is much better defensively.

Turris is a better player than Gagner.

Phoenix would not trade the same package they got for Turris for a worse player than Turris.
Turris has not proven at this point he is better offensively as Gagner has put up more points.

Gagner is actually better than Turris in the FO %. Turris 46.8%; Gagner 47.6%. So, explain to me how Turris is the better player?

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10-06-2012, 01:53 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Post #54.

If you don't agree about better, let's stick to just as good.



You don't know what you're talking about. They completely misused him, which is why he asked for a trade. He was healthy scratched a lot and played 4th line minutes. Dave Tippett is a great coach, but he missed the boat with Turris' development.





Most teams use one of their top 2 lines as a shutdown matchup. Again, you have no clue.

Career doesn't matter. Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.



A 40-50 point player is much less valuable than a 40-50 point shutdown centre.

lol at "much more physical".
Gagner actually does play some what physical and will even drop the gloves.

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Old
10-06-2012, 01:54 PM
  #68
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As for the post, EDM now has Schultz so they don't need a player like Rundbland. I would make a deal for Gormley though. He is the type of young dman that we could use.

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10-06-2012, 01:55 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Turris has not proven at this point he is better offensively as Gagner has put up more points.

Gagner is actually better than Turris in the FO %. Turris 46.8%; Gagner 47.6%. So, explain to me how Turris is the better player?
he's better at one thing (which leads to offense and defense, which we are already discussing) by less than 1%, so Gagner is the better player. wow

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10-06-2012, 01:56 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post


49 points in 79 games

My mistake
Dude you're playing the same game with Turris and his 29 points, that are ''barely above 25''.

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Old
10-06-2012, 02:02 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Post #54.

If you don't agree about better, let's stick to just as good.
Your post proved Gagner was better offensively last year, and previous. I could cherry pick stats to prove Sundin was better then Gretzky, but it doesn't make it true.

Fact is Turris has yet to even match Gagner's worst offensive season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post

You don't know what you're talking about. They completely misused him, which is why he asked for a trade. He was healthy scratched a lot and played 4th line minutes. Dave Tippett is a great coach, but he missed the boat with Turris' development.




You don't know what you're talking about. They completely misused him, which is why Renney got fired. He was stuck with scrubs a lot, and started one year on the 4th line.

See what I did there. Difference is Gagner went through similar experience, and still scored more points.

Fact is Turris has proven little yet as a offensive player. He is closer to suspect, then offensive prospect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Most teams use one of their top 2 lines as a shutdown matchup. Again, you have no clue.
Most teams, as in the top 7-8 teams in the league maybe. Wait... is less then 1/3 most teams?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Career doesn't matter. Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.
Sounds familiar... Filatov was it? I am pretty sure careers do matter, and fact is Turris has proven very little in his.

You are backing your argument with more of your opinion and excuses then fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
A 40-50 point player is much less valuable than a 40-50 point shutdown centre.

lol at "much more physical".
Shouldn't Turris score more then 29 points first? Right now Tyler Bozak is a closer definition to a 40-50 point shutdown centre.

lol at "similar offensively..."

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Old
10-06-2012, 02:03 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Post #54.

If you don't agree about better, let's stick to just as good.



You don't know what you're talking about. They completely misused him, which is why he asked for a trade. He was healthy scratched a lot and played 4th line minutes. Dave Tippett is a great coach, but he missed the boat with Turris' development.





Most teams use one of their top 2 lines as a shutdown matchup. Again, you have no clue.

Career doesn't matter. Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.



A 40-50 point player is much less valuable than a 40-50 point shutdown centre.

lol at "much more physical".

You are wrong: most teams do not use their 2nd line C in shutdown matchups. Some weaker teams that have difficulty with opposing team's great line would, but overall 2nd line C are not intended to play shutdown role. I'm afraid you're the clueless one!!!

If I had the time, i'd list all of the 2nd line C in the league, and make you tell me which one of them plays on the shutdown line. I also want you to tell me where Turris would rank amongst those 2nd line C's.

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Old
10-06-2012, 02:03 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Dude you're playing the same game with Turris and his 29 points, that are ''barely above 25''.
Turris:

8-12-20
11-14-25
12-17-29

For an average of

10-14-24

Gagner:

13-36-49
16-25-41
15-26-41
15-27-42
18-29-47


for an average of :

16-28-44

To be fair both of them have yet to put together a full season. Gagner would be closer to 50 and Turris would be closer to 30.

Gagner has also gone through... what? 5 coaches already?

He's always been able to produce regardless of his situation.


Last edited by SephF: 10-06-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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Old
10-06-2012, 02:08 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by SephF View Post
8-12-20
11-14-25
12-17-29

For an average of

10-14-24
When have I said anything about Turris' (or Gagner) previous seasons?

Fine, Gagner: 49, 41, 41, 42, 47 points. Average = 44 points

Gagner isn't even a 45 point player let alone 50 point

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Old
10-06-2012, 02:15 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
When have I said anything about Turris' (or Gagner) previous seasons?

Fine, Gagner: 49, 41, 41, 42, 47 points. Average = 44 points

Gagner isn't even a 45 point player let alone 50 point
Turris isn't even a 30pt player. I'm sure he makes it up in other areas, and is a solid 2nd line C.

This guy's numbers ooze 4th line.

Gagner got his points playing with some aweful players, on the worst team in the league for the past couple of years.

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