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Old
10-06-2012, 04:02 PM
  #101
MAK19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrench View Post
You are forgetting the 6 games and 0 points he played for Phoenix, because that does count for his ppg stat.
Last time I checked you can not take points off of someones stats to make your arguement better, because if you would like to do it that way we can discount his 4 point game against the NYI (much easier team than chicago) and one of his 2 point games so that would be 53 games played and a grand total of whooping 23 points. That is just a flat out stupid way to debate who is the better point producer. Which is Gagner.
If you read any of the thread, Turris was misused in Phx, he played 10-12 min a night the entire time, including this season. They and apparently their fans have irrational hate towards the guy and his abilities. That's why I took out the 6 games, and only count the Sens games, because he was misused and not allowed to play up to his ability.

My point with taking out those points was that Turris is a more consistent scorer.

We can make the 8 point game a "regular good game" and give him 3 points instead. That 8 point game was 100% a fluke. replace it with a regular good game and he has 42 points on the season and a worse point per game than Turris.

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10-06-2012, 04:02 PM
  #102
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OK look, I know there is a lock out. I know we need things to talk about around here. Trust me, I know. If you guys want to compare Turris and Gagner then do it, but if you don't stop with the personal shots (you don't know what you're talking about, your opinions are worthless, etc) then I'm handing out infractions and locking this thing. The lockout might be an excuse to go off topic a bit, but it isn't an excuse to start insulting one another. Respect. Either have it for one another, or leave.

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Old
10-06-2012, 04:06 PM
  #103
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I just have a hard time believing Oilers fans are defending this guy. He was supposed to be a major part of their team.

Now, he's not improving. His best season was his rookie year five years ago. He was supposed to be their 1st line centre. Now, he's a ''passable'' 2nd line centre that has helped their team accomplish absolutely nothing in his time there.

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10-06-2012, 04:06 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
If you read any of the thread, Turris was misused in Phx, he played 10-12 min a night the entire time, including this season. They and apparently their fans have irrational hate towards the guy and his abilities. That's why I took out the 6 games, and only count the Sens games, because he was misused and not allowed to play up to his ability.

My point with taking out those points was that Turris is a more consistent scorer.

We can make the 8 point game a "regular good game" and give him 3 points instead. That 8 point game was 100% a fluke. replace it with a regular good game and he has 42 points on the season and a worse point per game than Turris.
you claim Turris was "misused"...i say he wasn't good enough to have an impact in Phoenix or he'd still be there.

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Old
10-06-2012, 04:08 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
The only fact is that Turris was much better this year offensively than in gagner's worst year

29 =/= 44

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post

Turris played much more than a few games. MUCH more.
??? What ???

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Gagner had more PP time ONLY because he played in Edmonton and Turris in PHX.
What does PHX having no offensive players, and elect not to use Turris have anything to do with that?

This again is gibberish, yet I will try to respond. Gagner plays 2nd unit power play because he can. Is it his fault he is better offensively then Turris?



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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Plekanec for the Habs and Grabovski for the Leafs were the shutdown centres, not 3rd liners.
They were playing their best centres in those positions? What's your point? After them who was there?


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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Pretty much good defensive play. I would be so scared to have Gagner play Turris' minutes. There's reasons why the Sens were a playoff team and the Oilers not, Turris over Gagner is one of them.
Really? You realize Gagner was a + player last year. So by your logic, a + player on the 2nd worst team in the league is bad defensively.

Anderson, Karlsson, Alfreddsson, Spezza all had nothing to do with that I guess. Wow, Turris must be amazing, because despite only scoring 29 points he single-handedly carried the sens to the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Trending up and not stopping just yet for Turris. While the other has stopped.
Turris "trended" from 24 to 29 points...

You also seem to be assuming that one 23 year old will continue to improve, while the other, who right now is statistically better, will stop improving.

You also seem to be assuming that Gagner has not improved in other areas.


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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
His ppg average, you know what I mean, like you knew earlier in your response. Quit playing dumb

His ppg translates to 49 points in 82 games, quite good.

I was going off memory, looking back he had 9 points in his last 7 games, that's where it came from.
I know. I am pointing out the fact that the only stat you can prove Turris is comparable to Gagner, you must manipulate (by removing hotstreaks of one player) to prove this point.

I am presenting a 2 years of statistics to you, which show one player can outproduce another. You respond by cherry-picking stats out of last season.

If I removed Sam's 3 game streak and we removed Turris 9 in 7, what would that prove???

Turris is not, nor has ever been as good offensively as Gagner in the NHL. Cherry-pick all the stats you want.

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Old
10-06-2012, 04:08 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Wrong. Gagner had the 3rd toughest competition among Oiler centres behind Horcoff obviously and RNH. Turris on the other hand had the highest quality of competition among all Sens forwards.
It was almost identicle to Hopkins. Sorry it is 3rd but it's very close to 2nd and still essentially the same QoC as Turris. I don't think you understand how QoC works. Ottawa spread out the difficult minutes much more than Edmonton did, they didn't have a shutdown center. Turris may have had a higher ranking in comparison to his teammates but it's essentially the exact same competition Gagner faced. I have the player usage charts right in front of me, i know they played the same competition.

Quote:
You can't use QoC numbers to compare between teams, just on the same team. Turris played against top notch competition, while Gagner played against weaker players than Horcoff and RNH (hence the ''sheltered'').
That doesn't make any sense. A players QoC rating is intrinsically tied to the performance of all players against all teams, it's very much comparable. They faced the same level of competition.

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Despite this, Turris had a better +/- per 60 min of ice time.
This is a team stat. Ottawa is a much better team.

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Gagner had a good Corsi. So what
-He did it against weak competition
Weak comp. as in the exact same as Turris' competition?

Quote:
-Paajarvi had a good Corsi, but he was sent to the AHL because he wasn't good enough
Paajarvi was sent to the AHL because he wasn't scoring, Gagner was only outscored by 7 younger centers (4 of which were the four C's taken in their draft year) and was easily top 60 in production for his position. That's an awful comparison. Gagner is tracking tremendously and is most certainly a quality NHL player. Corsi is only one stat, i never substantiated my argument as being wholly dependant upon it.

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Gagner's #1 linemate was Ales hemsky, #2 was Taylor Hall, #3 Jordan Eberle Don't give me BS about bad linemates
He played with everyone, Gagner didn't play on any consistent line all year. Gagner played with Hemsky easily the most, but even if his 2nd and 3rd most minutes were with Hall and Eberle it wasn't that much more than the minutes he played with Horcoff, Smyth, Belanger, Paajarvi. He played everywhere it's not even debatable. I'd be willing to be that the disparity between #'s 3-6 in terms of his most common linemates by minutes wouldn't be a whole bunch.

This BTW only helps disprove the idea that he's sheltered, and if he is sheltered then surly you must agree he didn't play consistently with Hemsky and Hall. I say that because his most common linemate Ales Hemsky had the 2nd highest QoC on the team by far. I don't see how a guy can be most often matched up with a player who plays tough comp. and still play sheltered minutes. Don't you see the contridiction? His #2 linemate Hall, who he played with far less than Hemsky although a fair bit more than Eberle iirc, was #4 on the team in QoC. So again, how in the **** was he sheltered yet his most common linemates were facing some of the toughest comp. on the team? Seems like two different stories you're selling here, with the parts that apply best to your argument applying as you see fit. So either he played with various linemates in a sheltered role or he played most often with Hemsky and Hall, which helped his stats, but also must mean he faced difficult competion since we know Hemsky and Hall certainly did. Which one is it? Or are you going to continue to apply the most convinent stats to your argument as you see fit?

Quote:
Never said Turris was better offensively, don't know why you keep arguing that.
Gagner being the better offensive player is irrelevant in a comparison of the two? Okay...

Quote:
FYI, Turris had a Corsi of 11 and Gagner of -3. They are only similar if you use Relative Corsi, which takes the number and subtracts the team average, adjusting the numbers for the team. Gagner compared to Oilers is equal to Turris compared to the Sens... Sens >>> Oilers, therefore, Turris > Gagner
Of course you need to use CorsiRel, it's the only way you can isolate it as an individual stat and not a team one. I intially referred to it as CorsiRel but not the second time, i'd think it should have been clear what i meant by Corsi considering the context, but yeah next time i'll be sure to specify.

Quote:
Tangible things that indicate superiority:
-better +/- adjusted to ice time
-higher Corsi, similar Rel Corsi on a better team
-#1 highest quality of competition
Or in other words
-a better team
-the same results relative to his teammates
-the same quality of competition

Quote:
Dude, that line was the most sheltered of them all during that season. Check out your precious QoC numbers. Gagner was 14th among Oiler forwards. Credibility lost.
Because of the first half of the year, Gagner started on the 4th and Quinn didn't match lines very much (only defenseman) so it's a pretty tough year to use QoC for that season (Of course i'm sure you knew that). I though i made it pretty clear as Horcoff's shoulder deteriorated Gagner started recieving tougher minutes. Teams were clearly matching up against the Penner-Gagner line in the 2nd half. As i said it wasn't always the toughest of forwards they got, but they weren't sheltered as the season went on and they did face the other teams top defenseman. I specifically refrenced the Horcoff injury for a reason.

Quote:
Top pairing defensemen are usually considered ''good competition'', therefore if he was matched against them, he would have higher QoC. I'd bet on Horcoff - Hemsky attracting the tough competition that season.
Then i'm sure it will be shocking to you to know that NHLnumbers.com did a study of what forwards played the other teams top defenseman (TOI leaders) the most and the Hall-Hopkins-Eberle line easily did yet their QoC isn't anywhere close to Horcoff? That sure seems odd and inconsistent with how automatic you seem to think the connection is.

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Old
10-06-2012, 04:21 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
If you read any of the thread, Turris was misused in Phx, he played 10-12 min a night the entire time, including this season. They and apparently their fans have irrational hate towards the guy and his abilities. That's why I took out the 6 games, and only count the Sens games, because he was misused and not allowed to play up to his ability.

My point with taking out those points was that Turris is a more consistent scorer.

We can make the 8 point game a "regular good game" and give him 3 points instead. That 8 point game was 100% a fluke. replace it with a regular good game and he has 42 points on the season and a worse point per game than Turris.
You do realixe Gagner played 3games at less than 13 mins in a game and same for Turris so we can through away the misused theory.
It may of been 100% fluke but it was also 100% true that Turris played those 6 games in phoenix.

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Old
10-06-2012, 04:24 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
29 =/= 44
44 is not his career low, and ppg is much more indicative

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
??? What ???
He played less than 12 min a night. You really expect me to believe he played most of his time in the top 6. Please, you're making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
What does PHX having no offensive players, and elect not to use Turris have anything to do with that?

This again is gibberish, yet I will try to respond. Gagner plays 2nd unit power play because he can. Is it his fault he is better offensively then Turris?
I don't run Phx. I don't know why they used him the way they did. I've said this 1000 times, he was misused.

If Turris played in Edmonton instead of Gagner, of course he would have had his PP minutes as well.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
They were playing their best centres in those positions? What's your point? After them who was there?
????

YOU were arguing that only ''7-8 teams'' use their their top 2 lines as shutdown lines. That is clearly false.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Really? You realize Gagner was a + player last year. So by your logic, a + player on the 2nd worst team in the league is bad defensively. Can I have the number of your dealer?

Anderson, Karlsson, Alfreddsson, Spezza all had nothing to do with that I guess. Wow, Turris must be amazing, because despite only scoring 29 points he single-handedly carried the sens to the playoffs.
Turris never played with Spezza.

Gagner never played against top competition, not even close.

Didn't say Gagner was bad. Said I would not be comfortable having him play against Stamkos and Tavares and the likes, unlike Turris.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Turris "trended" from 24 to 29 points...

You also seem to be assuming that one 23 year old will continue to improve, while the other, who right now is statistically better, will stop improving.

You also seem to be assuming that Gagner has not improved in other areas.
OK, Gagner has improved a bit in other areas. Still doesn't mean he is or will be as good as Turris, or is coming close to fulfilling expectations.

Turris will continue to improve because he was a late bloomer and has raw talent.

Gagner won't improve at least offensively because he has been stagnate for 5 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
I know. I am pointing out the fact that the only stat you can prove Turris is comparable to Gagner, you must manipulate (by removing hotstreaks of one player) to prove this point.

I am presenting a 2 years of statistics to you, which show one player can outproduce another. You respond by cherry-picking stats out of last season.

If I removed Sam's 3 game streak and we removed Turris 9 in 7, what would that prove???

Turris is not, nor has ever been as good offensively as Gagner in the NHL. Cherry-pick all the stats you want.
Removing 9 points in 7 games for Turris makes him 42 games, 20 points.

Removing 11 points in 2 games for Gagner makes him 36 games, 73 points.

Pretty freaking close. I have a hard time believing Gagner is much better offensively. Like I said, Turris is just as good.

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Old
10-06-2012, 04:34 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by monkeywrench View Post
You do realixe Gagner played 3games at less than 13 mins in a game and same for Turris so we can through away the misused theory.
It may of been 100% fluke but it was also 100% true that Turris played those 6 games in phoenix.
Gagner only had 3 games where he had less than 13 min? thx for proving my point.

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10-06-2012, 04:34 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post

Removing 9 points in 7 games for Turris makes him 42 games, 20 points.

Removing 11 points in 2 games for Gagner makes him 36 games, 73 points.

Pretty freaking close. I have a hard time believing Gagner is much better offensively. Like I said, Turris is just as good.
Why do you keep taking out games that each played? Turris had a 7 game stretch where he only had 9 points. it happened. Gagner had a 2 game stretch where he had 11 points. it happened. You keep removing these just to make your point. Its not working. At all. The point totals weren't that close, and haven't been in any seasons that either player have been in the nhl.

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10-06-2012, 04:36 PM
  #111
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Why do you keep taking out games that each played? Turris had a 7 game stretch where he only had 9 points. it happened. Gagner had a 2 game stretch where he had 11 points. it happened. You keep removing these just to make your point. Its not working. At all. The point totals weren't that close, and haven't been in any seasons that either player have been in the nhl.
I only did it because Pucklington asked me to.

I firmly believe the 8 point was a fluke. Don't you agree. that's why I'm disregarding it a little bit. Even including it, the ppg for both are close.

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10-06-2012, 04:41 PM
  #112
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I have concluded that if you remove all of the points that Sam Gagner has scored, Kyle Turris is definitely the better player.

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10-06-2012, 04:45 PM
  #113
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The problem with saying something like, "take out that fluke of 11 points in 2 games and suddenly he is worse" is you cannot take that out. It absolutely happened. And perhaps Gagner was more heavily defended for a brief time after those two games. That's not an entirely unreasonable thought. Maybe had he not had that brief stint of awesome production he would have had more space to work in other games. Too many variable exist to simply say "without X, Y is worse than Z".

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10-06-2012, 04:45 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
44 is not his career low, and ppg is much more indicative



He played less than 12 min a night. You really expect me to believe he played most of his time in the top 6. Please, you're making stuff up.
No it is really not. Not how you are using it. I have shown you why your logic is faulty.
Never mentioned anything about Turris in PHX, or top 6 minutes. Don't accuse me of fabricating things, if you can't even get what I wrote correct.

41 in 76 games, and 41 in 68 games. Still better then Turris.

If you really want to use ppg stats, then Sam Gagner career 220 points in 336 games.

Sam Gagner is a 0.65 ppg player. Come back when Turris is even close to that for one season.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I don't run Phx. I don't know why they used him the way they did. I've said this 1000 times, he was misused.

If Turris played in Edmonton instead of Gagner, of course he would have had his PP minutes as well.
Phoenix was a better team then Ottawa and didn't see fit for Turris to play those minutes, despite the fact he would have filled a weakness for them. I see that as a detriment to your argument.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
YOU were arguing that only ''7-8 teams'' use their their top 2 lines as shutdown lines. That is clearly false.
How was I false, when you could only name one centre from each team? I was trying to point out they used their best centre for that assignment, and had little depth after that. Unless of course you suddenly have become a Gomez, and Bozak fan.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Turris never played with Spezza.
Of course, they are both centres. Not sure why you brought this up, as I never mentioned it.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Gagner never played against top competition, not even close.

Didn't say Gagner was bad. Said I would not be comfortable having him play against Stamkos and Tavares and the likes, unlike Turris.
As Eskimofan44 pointed out, their Corsi was very similar. All you proved was Ottawa spread out the tougher competition, while Edmonton didn't.

You have been proven wrong on this argument already, so I don't feel the need to address it much further.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
OK, Gagner has improved a bit in other areas. Still doesn't mean he is or will be as good as Turris, or is coming close to fulfilling expectations.

Turris will continue to improve because he was a late bloomer and has raw talent.

Gagner won't improve at least offensively because he has been stagnate for 5 years.
Again, you basing your argument on opinion. Gagner has statistically improved over the last five years. Development is not linear. This can be said for both players, but if one were to bet who is likely to score 50 points next year it would be gagner and not turris.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Removing 9 points in 7 games for Turris makes him 42 games, 20 points.

Removing 11 points in 2 games for Gagner makes him 36 games, 73 points.

Pretty freaking close. I have a hard time believing Gagner is much better offensively. Like I said, Turris is just as good.
I was trying to point out the fact that you need to remove statistics in order to try to prove your point.

You seemed to have missed the point.

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10-06-2012, 04:48 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I only did it because Pucklington asked me to.

I firmly believe the 8 point was a fluke. Don't you agree. that's why I'm disregarding it a little bit. Even including it, the ppg for both are close.
Even if I thought the 8 point night was a fluke, I still wouldn't disregard it to help make a point that the player I thought was better, was better. It just isn't a valid argument for Turris, IMO. Points wise, Gagner has the clear edge, and has since his rookie season.

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10-06-2012, 04:49 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
I only did it because Pucklington asked me to.

I firmly believe the 8 point was a fluke. Don't you agree. that's why I'm disregarding it a little bit. Even including it, the ppg for both are close.
Haha. No I didn't. You were removing stats to show he had similar ppg. I called you on it. You just didn't understand my point.

Maybe I should have been more clear. Read what I wrote again, and think about it.

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10-06-2012, 04:59 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
It was almost identicle to Hopkins. Sorry it is 3rd but it's very close to 2nd and still essentially the same QoC as Turris. I don't think you understand how QoC works. Ottawa spread out the difficult minutes much more than Edmonton did, they didn't have a shutdown center. Turris may have had a higher ranking in comparison to his teammates but it's essentially the exact same competition Gagner faced. I have the player usage charts right in front of me, i know they played the same competition.
The only reason it was close is because Gagner took RNH's minutes when he was out.

It's NOT the same competition. Horcoff was 1.4 something. Gagner is at like 0.7 and is like 8th on his team. Turris is 1st but is at 0.8. You can't compare between teams.

If what you are saying is true, if we add up the QoC for the Sens it would = the same for the Oilers. It doesn't, it's not equivalent between teams. Teams don't all have the same amount that is spread between all players. You're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
That doesn't make any sense. A players QoC rating is intrinsically tied to the performance of all players against all teams, it's very much comparable. They faced the same level of competition.
See above.

I mean, you say Sens were spread around but that the Oilers were top heavy, doesn't that mean Horcoff had all the hardest opponent, and Gagner was left with scraps?

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Weak comp. as in the exact same as Turris' competition?
Not weak, see above. Also, the reason Turris is not running away with Ottawa's QoC is because when Turris wasn't there at the start of the season, Spezza's line was the shutdown line, effectively boosting their numbers.

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Paajarvi was sent to the AHL because he wasn't scoring, Gagner was only outscored by 7 younger centers (4 of which were the four C's taken in their draft year) and was easily top 60 in production for his position. That's an awful comparison. Gagner is tracking tremendously and is most certainly a quality NHL player. Corsi is only one stat, i never substantiated my argument as being wholly dependant upon it.
glad we agree Corsi doesn't mean much by itself

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
He played with everyone, Gagner didn't play on any consistent line all year. Gagner played with Hemsky easily the most, but even if his 2nd and 3rd most minutes were with Hall and Eberle it wasn't that much more than the minutes he played with Horcoff, Smyth, Belanger, Paajarvi. He played everywhere it's not even debatable. I'd be willing to be that the disparity between #'s 3-6 in terms of his most common linemates by minutes wouldn't be a whole bunch.

This BTW only helps disprove the idea that he's sheltered, and if he is sheltered then surly you must agree he didn't play consistently with Hemsky and Hall. I say that because his most common linemate Ales Hemsky had the 2nd highest QoC on the team by far. I don't see how a guy can be most often matched up with a player who plays tough comp. and still play sheltered minutes. Don't you see the contridiction? His #2 linemate Hall, who he played with far less than Hemsky although a fair bit more than Eberle iirc, was #4 on the team in QoC. So again, how in the **** was he sheltered yet his most common linemates were facing some of the toughest comp. on the team? Seems like two different stories you're selling here, with the parts that apply best to your argument applying as you see fit. So either he played with various linemates in a sheltered role or he played most often with Hemsky and Hall, which helped his stats, but also must mean he faced difficult competion since we know Hemsky and Hall certainly did. Which one is it? Or are you going to continue to apply the most convinent stats to your argument as you see fit?
I don't care if he played with everyone a bit. he mostly played with very good players.

Hemsky's QoC is boosted because of the extended time he spent with Horcoff, otherwise it would be similar to gagner. Gagner had his time well spread between Hall, hemsky and Eberle.

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Gagner being the better offensive player is irrelevant in a comparison of the two? Okay...
That's not what I said, and you know. Now that you bring it up though, two-way efficiency is all that matters... who has the best blend of offense and defense, which is Turris.

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Of course you need to use CorsiRel, it's the only way you can isolate it as an individual stat and not a team one. I intially referred to it as CorsiRel but not the second time, i'd think it should have been clear what i meant by Corsi considering the context, but yeah next time i'll be sure to specify.
And you completely missed my point. Turris compared to the Sens is on the same level as gagner compared to the Oilers. Overall, Sens > Oilers, therefore Turris > Gagner

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Or in other words
-a better team
-the same results relative to his teammates
-the same quality of competition
-yes, better also but better competition
-Turris has better teammates, therefore is better
-not the same, see above

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Because of the first half of the year, Gagner started on the 4th and Quinn didn't match lines very much (only defenseman) so it's a pretty tough year to use QoC for that season (Of course i'm sure you knew that). I though i made it pretty clear as Horcoff's shoulder deteriorated Gagner started recieving tougher minutes. Teams were clearly matching up against the Penner-Gagner line in the 2nd half. As i said it wasn't always the toughest of forwards they got, but they weren't sheltered as the season went on and they did face the other teams top defenseman. I specifically refrenced the Horcoff injury for a reason.
?

This is supposed to convince me gagner compares to Turris defensively or something? He was sheltered, or accidentally sheltered because Quinn is an idiot... so what

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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Then i'm sure it will be shocking to you to know that NHLnumbers.com did a study of what forwards played the other teams top defenseman (TOI leaders) the most and the Hall-Hopkins-Eberle line easily did yet their QoC isn't anywhere close to Horcoff? That sure seems odd and inconsistent with how automatic you seem to think the connection is.
And I didn't say Gagner didn't play against 2nd pairs or something.

That line you mentioned were in the top 8 in QoC for the Oilers this year right? largely due to playing against #1 pairs.

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10-06-2012, 05:02 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Puritania View Post
I have concluded that if you remove all of the points that Sam Gagner has scored, Kyle Turris is definitely the better player.
Don't forget to remove all of the games in which Kyle Turris did not score a point.

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10-06-2012, 05:04 PM
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Haha. No I didn't. You were removing stats to show he had similar ppg. I called you on it. You just didn't understand my point.

Maybe I should have been more clear. Read what I wrote again, and think about it.
they have similar ppg with it.

Turris much better when you remove the 8 point game.



you said ''If I removed Sam's 3 game streak and we removed Turris 9 in 7, what would that prove???''

I did it. They were similar. Just like with the 8 point game.

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10-06-2012, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Don't forget to remove all of the games in which Kyle Turris did not score a point.
Initially, I presented both their ppg without removing any games. They were similar.

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10-06-2012, 05:07 PM
  #121
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Honestly, I'm not sure why you aren't just happy to have a player you feel is such a rising talent in the league. Why is it so important that people believe he's better than Gagner?

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10-06-2012, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by OutForMilk View Post
Even if I thought the 8 point night was a fluke, I still wouldn't disregard it to help make a point that the player I thought was better, was better. It just isn't a valid argument for Turris, IMO. Points wise, Gagner has the clear edge, and has since his rookie season.
It's not a clear edge.

0.627 vs 0.592

super close

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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Honestly, I'm not sure why you aren't just happy to have a player you feel is such a rising talent in the league. Why is it so important that people believe he's better than Gagner?
there's a lockout man

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10-06-2012, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
they have similar ppg with it.

Turris much better when you remove the 8 point game.



you said ''If I removed Sam's 3 game streak and we removed Turris 9 in 7, what would that prove???''

I did it. They were similar. Just like with the 8 point game.
But they don't have a similar ppg with it. Turris had 29 points in 55 games=0.527ppg, gagner had 47 points in 75 games= 0.626ppg. You are still moving facts around to support your opinion. Comparing points between the 2 players will never make your point. Your argument would be better served sticking to the areas of their games where Gagner doesn't have a clear and obvious edge, like the defensive side of the game.

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10-06-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Honestly, I'm not sure why you aren't just happy to have a player you feel is such a rising talent in the league. Why is it so important that people believe he's better than Gagner?
There is a decent chance that Turris ultimately becomes the more effective player. It's really not the opinion I have an issue with. It's the argument that I find...(deleted per mod warning)

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10-06-2012, 05:29 PM
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IMO its always gonna be close between the 2. Turris is never gonna be a star, lets be honest. I could see him puttin up 60 points with the right linemates.

Gags will be playing with at least one #1 overall on his line for the foreseeable future, which will get him some points no doubt.

Turris has shine in Ottawa because hes new, and they gave up their favorite prospect for him. Give it a season or 2.. No doubt it will wear. Kids nothing special.

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