The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
First of all here are the total costs of putting an NHL. team in Hamilton & Markham .
Markham
Arena - 350 million +
Territory fee to MLSE . - 250 million
Team it self - 300 - 400 million
Total costs = 900 million - 1.2 billion
Hamilton
Renovated Copps Coliseum - 150 million
Territory fees - 25 million for buffalo & 50 million for MLSE.
Team it self - 300 - 400 million
Total cost = 500 - 625 million
The reason the teritory fees in Hamilton are less than Markhams is that a new arena & NHL. team in Markham would take hockey & non hockey events away from MLSE. so MLSE. would probley want more money to offset thoses losses ..
Any sources for your figures or are these hypothetical numbers?
I believe it is 20% and the Sabres are looking to increase that. Why would that be if they already have a waiting list of Americans? 15% STH are Canadians, at least another 5% are gameday visitors. Just look how Leaf fans takeover the place when the Leafs play there.
Well in April 2011 the president of the Sabres claimed........ http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hoc.../18013671.html "Right now, 15% of our season ticket holders come from Canada," Black said. "As for the players, don't forget that a lot of guys in the league played junior hockey not too far away (in Ontario), so that's a selling point. And we have a lot of Canadian alumni players in the area too.
15% season tickets + 5% walk up does not equal 20%. That would be 13% considering the Sabres season ticket base is 15,400. In order to get to 20% overall the walk up sales would need to be 50% Canadians.
But I think that's moot regardless. Black did an interview a couple weeks ago in St Catherines. He said the number of Canadians was 12% across the board.
15% season tickets + 5% walk up does not equal 20%. That would be 13% considering the Sabres season ticket base is 15,400. In order to get to 20% overall the walk up sales would need to be 50% Canadians.
But I think that's moot regardless. Black did an interview a couple weeks ago in St Catherines. He said the number of Canadians was 12% across the board.
The article emphasizes the main point of the situation, the Sabres are going after the fans in Southern Ontario. They plan on having quarterly visits. Doesn't sound like they'd be open to Hamilton getting a team. He says they don't need Canadian money (ah huh) but they'll take it.
I believe the single game tickets are not really walkup rather they are bought at the beginning of the year or as soon as they go on sale and it wouldn't surprise me if half were bought by Canadians. You think Sabre fans in Buffalo pay a premium to watch the Habs and Leafs? Just look at their pricing they probably make double the Gate when those teams play there.
Last edited by Charon of Styx: 09-24-2012 at 06:14 AM.
The article emphasizes the main point of the situation, the Sabres are going after the fans in Southern Ontario. They plan on having quarterly visits. Doesn't sound like they'd be open to Hamilton getting a team. He says they don't need Canadian money (ah huh) but they'll take it.
I believe the single game tickets are not really walkup rather they are bought at the beginning of the year or as soon as they go on sale and it wouldn't surprise me if half were bought by Canadians. You think Sabre fans in Buffalo pay a premium to watch the Habs and Leafs? Just look at their pricing they probably make double the Gate when those teams play there.
1) It proves it's not 20%, never has been, never will be.
2) Last time I checked, St. Catherines is in Niagara, which is right across the border from Buffalo.
3) You're extrapolating based on you're own prejudices, not on any actual facts...
1) It proves it's not 20%, never has been, never will be.
2) Last time I checked, St. Catherines is in Niagara, which is right across the border from Buffalo.
3) You're extrapolating based on you're own prejudices, not on any actual facts...
Where do you see the PROOF? The articles prove Buffalo considers much of the Niagara peninsula theirs. Sorry Hamilton, but as somebody else stated the only way they're getting a team is if Buffalo moves there. I wonder what the odds on that are? And how can you prove what the percentage will be in the future?
St Catherines is 25 miles from Buffalo and 35 miles from Hamilton. I guess nobody from St. Catherines would go to Copps. Must be too far
Last edited by Charon of Styx: 09-24-2012 at 06:43 AM.
First of all here are the total costs of putting an NHL. team in Hamilton & Markham .
Markham
Arena - 350 million +
Territory fee to MLSE . - 250 million
Team it self - 300 - 400 million
Total costs = 900 million - 1.2 billion
Hamilton
Renovated Copps Coliseum - 150 million
Territory fees - 25 million for buffalo & 50 million for MLSE.
Team it self - 300 - 400 million
Total cost = 500 - 625 million
The reason the teritory fees in Hamilton are less than Markhams is that a new arena & NHL. team in Markham would take hockey & non hockey events away from MLSE. so MLSE. would probley want more money to offset thoses losses .
The Buffalo Sabres fans in Ontario are from Niagara Falls , Welland & Fort Erie not Hamilton so a NHL. team in Hamilton would not effect there bottom line but if you ask me they should be marketing more on there side of the border insted of trying to expand there fan base on our side . The only reason why the Sabres are even in the teritory rights picture is because seymore knox wanted to keep Hamilton open just in case Buffalo did not work so he would have an easy move .
What would non-hockey events have to do with the territory fee? Frankly, the ACC would get more non-hockey events if Markham gets a team (compared to Markham having an arena with no team).
What would non-hockey events have to do with the territory fee? Frankly, the ACC would get more non-hockey events if Markham gets a team (compared to Markham having an arena with no team).
Simple the Raptors & Marlies would be hit hard if a 2nd NHL. team would take root in Markham & MLSE. owns both the Raptors & Marlies as well as the Leafs so that is why MLSE will fight tooth nail to keep Markham out of the NHL. or makking them pay a huge territory fee around 250 million to let them in on top of what ever the team costs .
I wish this was in Mississauga and not freakin' Markham
Would have been nice. At least Mississauga has some semblance on an individual identity. I'm not saying its Toronto or even Hamilton in that regard but it isn't Markham. Maybe it is part due to the city's massive size compared to other suburbs, maybe it is the fact that the city actually has a skyline, maybe its the variance of neighbourhoods that Markham doesn't have, I don't know... but I think a team in Mississauga could bear the city's namesake. It doesn't have be called Toronto, like a team in Markham would have to be.
Somewhere near Hurontario and Burnhamthorpe would have been ideal IMO, right at the foot of the landmark Monroe towers, close to the 403 and to the future Hurontario LRT. But, we got take what we get. If the new arena in Markham means a second team for the GTA, then I'm all for it.
Would have been nice. At least Mississauga has some semblance on an individual identity. I'm not saying its Toronto or even Hamilton in that regard but it isn't Markham. Maybe it is part due to the city's massive size compared to other suburbs, maybe it is the fact that the city actually has a skyline, maybe its the variance of neighbourhoods that Markham doesn't have, I don't know... but I think a team in Mississauga could bear the city's namesake. It doesn't have be called Toronto, like a team in Markham would have to be.
Somewhere near Hurontario and Burnhamthorpe would have been ideal IMO, right at the foot of the landmark Monroe towers, close to the 403 and to the future Hurontario LRT. But, we got take what we get. If the new arena in Markham means a second team for the GTA, then I'm all for it.
Mississauga would be too close to Buffalo. My opinion this has already been discussed behind closed doors, if a 2nd team comes to southern Ontario it has to be located where it will do the least damage to Buffalo. A team in Mississauga would attract some people from the Niagara peninsula. A team in the North East would attract very little from Niagara as Buffalo would be easier to get to.
Where do you see the PROOF? The articles prove Buffalo considers much of the Niagara peninsula theirs. Sorry Hamilton, but as somebody else stated the only way they're getting a team is if Buffalo moves there. I wonder what the odds on that are? And how can you prove what the percentage will be in the future?
Did you miss the part where it was said that the numbers have been consistant over the years? You are clearly are only seeing what you want to see...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stix and Stones
St Catherines is 25 miles from Buffalo and 35 miles from Hamilton. I guess nobody from St. Catherines would go to Copps. Must be too far
1) Buffalo is still closer.
2) Reductio ad absurdum.
Last edited by Evil Doctor: 09-25-2012 at 06:24 AM.
Mississauga would be too close to Buffalo. My opinion this has already been discussed behind closed doors, if a 2nd team comes to southern Ontario it has to be located where it will do the least damage to Buffalo. A team in Mississauga would attract some people from the Niagara peninsula. A team in the North East would attract very little from Niagara as Buffalo would be easier to get to.
I see where your coming from but its ridiculous. Buffalo is stretching it enough arguing against a team in Hamilton, let alone if they were to argue against one in Mississauga. I mean, Square One is a 25 minute drive from Downtown Toronto!
No lease has been signed, though, and terms of the repayment schedule have not been determined. “We have two options: One is to pay the $162.5(-million) in cash, or pay the amount over 20 years, whatever that term is,” he said.
Roustan on potential tenants:
Quote:
Roustan has been at pains to say the NHL does not factor into his financial models for the arena: “We’re going to make money in multiple ways,” he said again this week. Concerts will be one source, he said. Roustan listed off other potential revenue streams, including a possible National Basketball League of Canada franchise. (In August, Riley O’Connor, chair of Live Nation Canada, which is listed as a partner of the GTA Centre proposal, told The Toronto Star: “You can’t do it on concerts alone.”) “I’ve had many discussions with many recognized brand names of tenants for the building,” Roustan said. “Those talks are general right now, but once we have an agreement in place with the city, I will advance those talks.”
Hmmm... putting forward over $100 million to build a 20,000-seat venue for some concerts and a minor-pro basketball team? Nothing unusual about that.
Quote:
Wait. No NHL team?
“I’m not chasing anything right now,” Roustan said. “But I am answering the phone.”
Could a man named Gary be on the other end, perhaps?
Hmmm... putting forward over $100 million to build a 20,000-seat venue for some concerts and a minor-pro basketball team? Nothing unusual about that.
Most amusing fellow this Roustan. Do I pay out $162.5M now in cash or amortize itover 20yrs as I dont yet have that anchor tenant of the "brand name variety"....
... like every other number the NHL & its individual franchises throw around, completely bogus, manufactured; purpose specific. Real easy to find out what the dealeo is with Buffalo. Go public. Employ an independent auditor to parse Postal Codes from Zip Codes, then nail down the Postal Codes to areas of residence. No privacy law issues breached. Id be shocked if you found more than a couple of hundred in Hamilton-Wentworth proper, Kitchener-Waterloo & Cambridge, Guelph. Relying on Canadians from Niagara Falls, Niagara on the Lake & others for ST's & walk-up is just fine n' dandy, but to get carried away & include the entire Peninsula clean on up to the Burlington Bridge?! Nothing but facile, avaricious & greedy posturing since the mid 80's. Burden of Proof is on Buffalo, and until such time as they actually prove it, the argument is both baseless & insincere...
Lets just say for arguments sake that the numbers are spot on.
How many people are going to switch allegiances to a different team?
How many are going to jump at the chance of (more then likely) having to pay higher ticket and concession prices, when they are already well rooted sabre fans?
Lets just say for arguments sake that the numbers are spot on.
How many people are going to switch allegiances to a different team?
How many are going to jump at the chance of (more then likely) having to pay higher ticket and concession prices, when they are already well rooted sabre fans?
Many people would skip the border crossing. Too many unknowns every time a person crosses. The added headaches if you get into an accident or even get a traffic ticket. The chance you can be delayed at the border. Your vehicle may breakdown, many would just would prefer to avoid the added problems of being stranded in another country.
Thats a load of BULL S*** why would Ed Snider & Jeremy Jacobs financeing this so called Markham arena I think this TVA. journalist was mis understood he probley ment that Ed Sniders company will run this so called arena Jeremy Jacobs company will provide the concessions thats it . You gotta think if MLSE. is hell bent on keeping a monopoly in southern Ontario they will as Hamilton hockey fans a to fimiliar with & if push comes to shove that another NHL. team is going to be in southern Ontario MLSE. at very least would want to keep its monopoly in the GTA. & would waive its NHL. territory rights to Hamilton to do so pavving the way for an NHL. team in Hamilton .
Thats a load of BULL S*** why would Ed Snider & Jeremy Jacobs financeing this so called Markham arena I think this TVA. journalist was mis understood he probley ment that Ed Sniders company will run this so called arena Jeremy Jacobs company will provide the concessions thats it . You gotta think if MLSE. is hell bent on keeping a monopoly in southern Ontario they will as Hamilton hockey fans a to fimiliar with & if push comes to shove that another NHL. team is going to be in southern Ontario MLSE. at very least would want to keep its monopoly in the GTA. & would waive its NHL. territory rights to Hamilton to do so pavving the way for an NHL. team in Hamilton .
Well when Markham gets an NHL team one thing will become painfully obvious to you. MLSE is not the main reason Hamilton does not get a team. Look a few miles south, someday you will see this.
Lets just say for arguments sake that the numbers are spot on. How many people are going to switch allegiances to a different team? How many are going to jump at the chance of (more then likely) having to pay higher ticket and concession prices, when they are already well rooted sabre fans?
Again, the burden of proof rests with Buffalo. Prove that they'll be harmed through the loss of STH's in the Hamilton/KW corridor should a team land in the Hammer. I dont buy it for a second. If as suggested their ST base is comprised of app 15% Canadian residents, then they'd just have to be, like 90% of them from the immediate border regions of Niagara on the Lake & Niagara Fall's Ontario. In addition to the Border hassles, winter driving mid-week or weekends can be a horror, taking hours from Hamilton & environs, be it bumper-bumper traffic, whiteouts, black ice or whatever else you have a better than good chance of encountering. Hardcore Leafs fans however will make the trek, walkup's, as they cant beg, borrow or steal tickets to the ACC, and that in and of itself is a trek, a journey. Especially if your doing it say from Scarborough or Pickering.
Toronto, all of Southern Ontario is really quite an anomaly when it comes to team loyalties. Sure the majority are Leafs fans, but with little to cheer for over the past 45 years, a lot of kids have adopted teams like Montreal, Edmonton at one time, Detroit, Chicago, Boston etc. Even back in the day when the Leafs were winning Cup's, huge swaths of Black Hawk, Bruins, Habs fans in Metropolitan Toronto alone, the outskirts of Toronto, Hamilton with ties to Detroit in the Jr. Red Wings, St. Catherines with the OHA Blackhawks, Kitchener with the Rangers, Barrie & Oshawa with Boston & so on. Buffalo, beyond a couple of blips over its 40yr history has never engendered wide-spread loyalties in Hamilton, Markham or the GTA, nor have they ever marketed themselves to the fans in those areas, and the so called "rivalry" with the Leafs that Punch Imlach & the NHL promised in 1970 never took off. Sure there are Sabres fans & STH's in Ontario, the vast majority of them within 30-60min's of Buffalo and right across the Border.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE
....Jeremy Jacobs company will provide the concessions thats it .
... thats correct JM, rumour has it Jeremy Jacobs concessions company Delaware North has the inside track on the contract for Markham. Theres two way to look at that IMO. Not a very bright move by Roustan as that contract should either be handled in-house, setting it up himself, hiring people to manage & run it himself, or alternatively, talking to MLSE's concessions division, seeing if theres an accommodation that can be made with them, a further incentive for the folks at the ACC to entertain in garnering their full support for a franchise in Markham. Snider as the Arena Manager with Global Spectrum another dumb move if true.
What I do know is that PKP in QC has I believe cut a deal with Jacobs Delaware North Catering, for the soul purpose Im assuming to gain favour & support from him in securing a team. This story, a whispered rumour, could easily be a plant by Quebecor to TVA, purpose being to get MLSE's back up if they can be made to suspect that Jacobs & Snider are impinging on their territory, potentially interfering in & negating some of the benefits they might be able to secure from Markham and or Hamilton when eventually teams land in either or both locations.
Well when Markham gets an NHL team one thing will become painfully obvious to you. MLSE is not the main reason Hamilton does not get a team. Look a few miles south, someday you will see this.
First of all if Buffalo was the main reason Hamilton dose not have an NHL. team why don't they advertise , televise there games , sell there merchadise in our department stores ect. & last I checked it was only leafs that advertised & televised there games in Hamilton & sold there merchandise in Hamilton department stores ect. with the odd senators merchandise . What makes you think that MLSE. will allow Markham to have an NHL. team if they bulid that arena & not Hamilton when clearly when Hamilton is furthier away & will not have any impact on MLSE. other non hockey intrest namely the Raptors & Marlies . One last thing forgot to mention with Global spectum & Live nation takeing Copps Coliseum next year they said there main goal is to aquire an NHL. team for Hamilton which leads me to think that MLSE. & Global spectrum are going to work together to make sure Hamilton gets an NHL. team & markham dosen`t because MLSE. has a lot to lose if Markham gets an NHL. team .
1) Back in 1997 Jeremy Jacobs put in a brief bid for the expansion Cleveland Browns. He paid the application fee ($150K with 50% refundable) and then withdrew after getting the bid package. Apparently he just wanted the concessions contract on the arena (which he eventually got). He was never a serious contender because he said he was never going to sell the Bruins, and the NFL ownership rules prohibited him from owning an NFL team and a team in another sport that is in an NFL market. Take that for whatever its worth, but I just think you always have to question his motives.
2) With MLSE we have to consider that MLSE has new management in the last few months. So who knows what new MLSE has in mind. When the Expos moved to DC they had to agree to some broadcast rights concessions to the Orioles. I think they had to agree to a regional sports network. There maybe a difference between how a pension fund views a new team vs how 2 media markets view it.
3) Are people in the Niagara region Sabres fans because they are close to Buffalo or because the Sabres aren't the Leafs and they are near by. If its the latter than yeah I could see Hamilton hurting the Leafs. Also, as long as the US border agents insist on harassing frequent crossers like myself that will start hurting the Sabres too.
