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Markham Arena II

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Old
10-06-2012, 05:07 PM
  #451
Confucius
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
First of all if Buffalo was the main reason Hamilton dose not have an NHL. team why don't they advertise , televise there games , sell there merchadise in our department stores ect. & last I checked it was only leafs that advertised & televised there games in Hamilton & sold there merchandise in Hamilton department stores ect. with the odd senators merchandise . What makes you think that MLSE. will allow Markham to have an NHL. team if they bulid that arena & not Hamilton when clearly when Hamilton is furthier away & will not have any impact on MLSE. other non hockey intrest namely the Raptors & Marlies . One last thing forgot to mention with Global spectum & Live nation takeing Copps Coliseum next year they said there main goal is to aquire an NHL. team for Hamilton which leads me to think that MLSE. & Global spectrum are going to work together to make sure Hamilton gets an NHL. team & markham dosen`t because MLSE. has a lot to lose if Markham gets an NHL. team .
Jim, all I said was when Markham gets a team I hope you're still around to post about how I was right and you were wrong. To be honest Mississauga is a better location than Markham, however the arena is being built in Markham. Why? The NHL would never allow a team in Mississauga it is still to close to Buffalo. Let alone Hamilton's proximity to Buffalo. Hamilton already has an arena yet the league states about the prospect of Hamilton getting a team, ohhh crap we never thought about it before? Do you believe that?

Markham is not anymore special to Rauston than Mississauga. Mississauga would be a better location, although Markham will do very well anyway. Ask yourself why would he build there as opposed to Mississauga? Both locations are close to MLSE, the only reason is the Sabres territory. I posted earlier in this thread what the Sabres President thought about Southern Ontario and how they plan to visit and caravan the area several times a year. If Hamilton gets a team beore Markham, I'll post how you were correct all along. Cheers

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10-06-2012, 05:19 PM
  #452
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A few random thoughts:

1) Back in 1997 Jeremy Jacobs put in a brief bid for the expansion Cleveland Browns. He paid the application fee ($150K with 50% refundable) and then withdrew after getting the bid package. Apparently he just wanted the concessions contract on the arena (which he eventually got). He was never a serious contender because he said he was never going to sell the Bruins, and the NFL ownership rules prohibited him from owning an NFL team and a team in another sport that is in an NFL market. Take that for whatever its worth, but I just think you always have to question his motives.

2) With MLSE we have to consider that MLSE has new management in the last few months. So who knows what new MLSE has in mind. When the Expos moved to DC they had to agree to some broadcast rights concessions to the Orioles. I think they had to agree to a regional sports network. There maybe a difference between how a pension fund views a new team vs how 2 media markets view it.

3) Are people in the Niagara region Sabres fans because they are close to Buffalo or because the Sabres aren't the Leafs and they are near by. If its the latter than yeah I could see Hamilton hurting the Leafs. Also, as long as the US border agents insist on harassing frequent crossers like myself that will start hurting the Sabres too.
I'm not a sabres fan but I go to sabres games because I like going to NHL games without having to get a second mortgage.

I live in burlington so it takes me an hour to get to buffalo,after I get gas and cheap beer to take home,it's well worth the trip.

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10-06-2012, 11:17 PM
  #453
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Let me tell you somthing as long as MLSE. wants to keep a monopoly in southern ontario they will get it as for the Sabres I keep telling you they are 65 miles away from Hamilton & teritory rights to a specfic area are 50 miles so Hamilton is 15 miles outside of Sabres territory & even Sabres management said a few years back that they have no teritory claim to the Hamilton market .

MLSE. was so hell bent on keeping Hamilton out the NHL. what makes Markham think that MLSE. will allow them to have a team considering Markham is right smack dab in the middle of MLSE. territory whille Hamilton is much furthier away & won't impact other MLSE. intrests ie. Raptors & Marlies .

If Rouston did is home work he should know that Hamilton is the place to be if you are an investor because Hamilton is booming right now & you can't go one place in the city without seeing some kind of buliding going up condos , hotels , new stadium you name it it is being bulit & Why Rouston chose Markham of all places to build his so called arena beats the hell out of me when he probley knows that getting an NHL. team to play there would very expensive & pretty slim .

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10-07-2012, 02:35 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post

If Rouston did is home work he should know that Hamilton is the place to be if you are an investor because Hamilton is booming right now & you can't go one place in the city without seeing some kind of buliding going up condos , hotels , new stadium you name it it is being bulit & Why Rouston chose Markham of all places to build his so called arena beats the hell out of me when he probley knows that getting an NHL. team to play there would very expensive & pretty slim .
Isn't Rouston's office in Vaughan? Markham is also exploding and the GTA has a decidedly northern sprawl going on now so Markham makes sense as well. I wonder if this is a little like the Brooklyn Nets deal where the team is the carrot that a developer offers the city in order to get what he wants development wise.

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10-07-2012, 08:41 AM
  #455
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Let me tell you somthing as long as MLSE. wants to keep a monopoly in southern ontario they will get it as for the Sabres I keep telling you they are 65 miles away from Hamilton & teritory rights to a specfic area are 50 miles so Hamilton is 15 miles outside of Sabres territory & even Sabres management said a few years back that they have no teritory claim to the Hamilton market .

MLSE. was so hell bent on keeping Hamilton out the NHL. what makes Markham think that MLSE. will allow them to have a team considering Markham is right smack dab in the middle of MLSE. territory whille Hamilton is much furthier away & won't impact other MLSE. intrests ie. Raptors & Marlies .

If Rouston did is home work he should know that Hamilton is the place to be if you are an investor because Hamilton is booming right now & you can't go one place in the city without seeing some kind of buliding going up condos , hotels , new stadium you name it it is being bulit & Why Rouston chose Markham of all places to build his so called arena beats the hell out of me when he probley knows that getting an NHL. team to play there would very expensive & pretty slim .
Here is an excerpt from the meeting between the NHL and Markham representitives back in 2010. The meeting was about Markham lobbying the NHL for Canada's next NHL team.

“He said to us, north Toronto good,” recalled Markham regional councillor Jim Jones. “But he didn’t promise anything,”

It was hardly a guarantee of a team, but it was all the assurance city officials needed.


So Jim, the link is below. I ask you why would the NHL say, "North Toronto good"?


thestar.com/news/gta/article/1267788--markham-s-power-play-will-plans-to-build-a-325-million-arena-boost-or-burden-the-city

If you take the time to read the entire article Jim, you'll find Roustan has done quite a bit of planning. I think he knows the best place to put an NHL team that would be acceptable to the NHL.


Last edited by Confucius: 10-07-2012 at 09:05 AM.
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10-07-2012, 11:44 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Here is an excerpt from the meeting between the NHL and Markham representitives back in 2010. The meeting was about Markham lobbying the NHL for Canada's next NHL team.

“He said to us, north Toronto good,” recalled Markham regional councillor Jim Jones. “But he didn’t promise anything,”

It was hardly a guarantee of a team, but it was all the assurance city officials needed.


So Jim, the link is below. I ask you why would the NHL say, "North Toronto good"?


thestar.com/news/gta/article/1267788--markham-s-power-play-will-plans-to-build-a-325-million-arena-boost-or-burden-the-city

If you take the time to read the entire article Jim, you'll find Roustan has done quite a bit of planning. I think he knows the best place to put an NHL team that would be acceptable to the NHL.
The NHL. meet with Hamilton representitives as well back early in 2010 as well & said the same thing & I also reacall Gary Bettman saying a NHL. team in Markham could work but would make no where near the amount of money the leafs do . The thing is whar makes more business sense a NHL. team in Markham which would cost about 600 - 700 million dollars on top of what that new arena would cost & you have to find some one who will shell out that kind of money for a hockey team as for Hamilton we are booming with economic investment right now also you could put an NHL. team in Hamilton for 60% of the cost that would take to put a team in Markham not to mention you would less resistance in Hamilton than you would Markham . Because if push come to shove & MLSE. has to make a choice who to allow to have an NHL. team between Hamilton & Markham they would choose the city that is far enough away that it won't effect both there hockey & non hockey intrest & that city is Hamilton .

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10-07-2012, 11:59 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The NHL. meet with Hamilton representitives as well back early in 2010 as well & said the same thing & I also reacall Gary Bettman saying a NHL. team in Markham could work but would make no where near the amount of money the leafs do . The thing is whar makes more business sense a NHL. team in Markham which would cost about 600 - 700 million dollars on top of what that new arena would cost & you have to find some one who will shell out that kind of money for a hockey team as for Hamilton we are booming with economic investment right now also you could put an NHL. team in Hamilton for 60% of the cost that would take to put a team in Markham not to mention you would less resistance in Hamilton than you would Markham . Because if push come to shove & MLSE. has to make a choice who to allow to have an NHL. team between Hamilton & Markham they would choose the city that is far enough away that it won't effect both there hockey & non hockey intrest & that city is Hamilton .
I do agree MLSE would rather see a team in Hamilton than Markham. My own belief, it's not MLSE's call and that is why the teachers sold. The league has many ways to pressure MLSE. For example they can force them to pay even more into revenue sharing, say 50 million per year. Or they can allow a second team in the area and pay only 25 million into rev sharing. The Leafs would prefer Hamilton if they had a choice. The League would prefer Markham, so as to do the least amount of damge to the Sabres. My opinion only obviously but time will tell. Cheers!

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10-07-2012, 12:01 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
The NHL. meet with Hamilton representitives as well back early in 2010 as well & said the same thing & I also reacall Gary Bettman saying a NHL. team in Markham could work but would make no where near the amount of money the leafs do . The thing is whar makes more business sense a NHL. team in Markham which would cost about 600 - 700 million dollars on top of what that new arena would cost & you have to find some one who will shell out that kind of money for a hockey team as for Hamilton we are booming with economic investment right now also you could put an NHL. team in Hamilton for 60% of the cost that would take to put a team in Markham not to mention you would less resistance in Hamilton than you would Markham . Because if push come to shove & MLSE. has to make a choice who to allow to have an NHL. team between Hamilton & Markham they would choose the city that is far enough away that it won't effect both there hockey & non hockey intrest & that city is Hamilton .
Clarification needed... are you saying $600-$700MM is what the potential owner of a team in Markham would pay in expansion fees?

Also, just throwing this out there... when would you forecast (what year) that a replacement arena for Copps would occur?

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10-07-2012, 12:43 PM
  #459
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Pretty soon the NHL will have a "Greater Toronto" division consisting of 2 Toronto teams, 1 Markham, and 1 Hamilton.

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10-07-2012, 01:03 PM
  #460
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So if a team is located in Markham what would they name it?
Would it be the Markham ........... the Ontario ........... the GTA ....... or the Toronto .......... of Markham (such as the Los Angles Angles of Aneheim)?

Do people from Markham condider themselves Torontonians?
The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey but go by New York, The Phoneix Coyotes are from Glendale, Ottawa Senators play in Kanata, I'm sure there are many,many more examples in Pro Sports.

Just currious though...would the new team located in Markham have Markham, or Toronto in its name?

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10-07-2012, 01:05 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
I do agree MLSE would rather see a team in Hamilton than Markham. My own belief, it's not MLSE's call and that is why the teachers sold. The league has many ways to pressure MLSE. For example they can force them to pay even more into revenue sharing, say 50 million per year. Or they can allow a second team in the area and pay only 25 million into rev sharing. The Leafs would prefer Hamilton if they had a choice. The League would prefer Markham, so as to do the least amount of damge to the Sabres. My opinion only obviously but time will tell. Cheers!
If Markham trys to land an NHL. team for this so called arena MLSE. will fight tooth & nail & what I mean by that is that MLSE. will file a lawsuit against any prospective owner & the NHL. if they try to put a team in Markham & the last thing the NHL. needs right now is there most valueble sueing them . I disagree that the NHL. wants to put an NHL. team in Markham rather than Hamilton because the big money to be made is not in Markham but the Hamilton area , Southwestern Ontario area , small parts of the GTA. & Niagara region which as access to 8 million people & if you ask me I think another NHL. team southern ontario should be placed in a compermised area in southern ontario namely the Kitchener\Waterloo area that I belive the Leafs & Sabres both can live with . But if you ask me I think we are both being played by the NHL. & they have no disire of putting any other teams in Canada unless Gary Bettman & NHL. arm where twisted into doing so how do you think Winnipeg got the Jets back .


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10-07-2012, 01:13 PM
  #462
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Clarification needed... are you saying $600-$700MM is what the potential owner of a team in Markham would pay in expansion fees?

Also, just throwing this out there... when would you forecast (what year) that a replacement arena for Copps would occur?
600 million for relocation 700 million for expansion

Copps Coliseum can & will be renovated for around 150 million & Copps could last addtional 40 years .

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10-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
600 million for relocation 700 million for expansion

Copps Coliseum can & will be renovated for around 150 million & Copps could last addtional 40 years .
.... JM, theres absolutely no way the NHL could possibly charge $600M/$700M in Relo/Expansion Fee's say from Long Island or Phoenix to Markham or Hamilton. Im assuming your assuming a portion of those fee's would be paid to MLSE & the Sabres in indemnification fee's? In the case of Phoenix, youd be dropping minimum $170M on the team itself which when combined with a Relo Fee would push the price up to nearly $800M plus the costs of an arena, surrounding development, or in Copps case a $200M reno & retro-fit. A billion dollars before the pucks even dropped. That my friend is right over the top.

I'd hazard to guess the league could get $325M-$350M in Expansion Fee's including indemnification. On a Relocation, perhaps as much as $250M with a portion of those fee's going to pay indemnification to MLSE & Buffalo. As Bell/Rogers are interested in "content", creative ways around actually having to pay full indemnification could be found, whereby the owner in Hamilton or Markham could award local broadcast rights to either Bell or Rogers for the first 3-5yrs at a discounted rate or even gratis in lieu of making the indemnification payment at all. Expansion rather than Relocation would be the preferred methodology, as those funds would arrive unencumbered, free money for all 30 teams, and Id strike while the irons hot, awarding Expansion Teams to Markham and Hamilton. Quebec & Seattle receiving Relocation Candidates.

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10-07-2012, 03:00 PM
  #464
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Copps Coliseum can & will be renovated for around 150 million & Copps could last addtional 40 years .
I'm very skeptical of any renovations, of any magnitude, lasting 40 years. Especially on a building that's already 27 years old. Not skeptical that those renovations would last that long, mind you. Where my skepticism lies is the down-the-road operating costs (increase). As a businessman, I would have to really step back a moment and evaluate the pro's and con's. First, $150 million was the estimate in 2007, managed to stay that number in Balsillie's plans, so factor in 2012 + figures to what... around $170-$180 million in renovation costs?

The renovation/upgrade plans I've seen certainly boost revenue potential and overall amenities/fan experience but show me nothing of revamping core structure, electrical, and water/sewer capabilities with regards to conservation, waste elimination, green initiatives, and the like. Now, if I want to significantly attempt to scale back my longterm costs, then I'd best plan to add another $12-$17 million on revamping those aforementioned items.

If weighing immediate benefits vs. long term, and considering that I'm estimated to be between $170 and say $210 (allowing for small cost overun) and essentially half way there towards building a whole new arena, I would have to seriously weigh my options on a whole new arena.

I'm repeatedly on record as saying that Hamilton should get a franchise. So I don't have to be sold to on that. Given that Global Spectrum is now going to run Copps and Hamilton Place, one could summize that they "smell" somethings in water. Where I stop short of a full court press, at the moment, is Copps itself.

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10-07-2012, 03:52 PM
  #465
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[QUOTE=Killion;54826945].... JM, theres absolutely no way the NHL could possibly charge $600M/$700M in Relo/Expansion Fee's

You mis understood what I ment by 600 - 700 million for a NHL. team in markham it is the combiened costs of the team & territory rights .

Markham
Arena - 350 million
Team - 300-400 million
Teritory - 250 million

= 900 million - 1 billion

Hamilton
Renovate Copps - 150 million
Team - 300 - 400 million
Teritory rights - MLSE. = 40 million Sabres = 30 million Total = 70 million

= 550 - 650 million

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10-07-2012, 04:01 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
I'm very skeptical of any renovations, of any magnitude, lasting 40 years. Especially on a building that's already 27 years old. Not skeptical that those renovations would last that long, mind you. Where my skepticism lies is the down-the-road operating costs (increase). As a businessman, I would have to really step back a moment and evaluate the pro's and con's. First, $150 million was the estimate in 2007, managed to stay that number in Balsillie's plans, so factor in 2012 + figures to what... around $170-$180 million in renovation costs?

The renovation/upgrade plans I've seen certainly boost revenue potential and overall amenities/fan experience but show me nothing of revamping core structure, electrical, and water/sewer capabilities with regards to conservation, waste elimination, green initiatives, and the like. Now, if I want to significantly attempt to scale back my longterm costs, then I'd best plan to add another $12-$17 million on revamping those aforementioned items.

If weighing immediate benefits vs. long term, and considering that I'm estimated to be between $170 and say $210 (allowing for small cost overun) and essentially half way there towards building a whole new arena, I would have to seriously weigh my options on a whole new arena.

I'm repeatedly on record as saying that Hamilton should get a franchise. So I don't have to be sold to on that. Given that Global Spectrum is now going to run Copps and Hamilton Place, one could summize that they "smell" somethings in water. Where I stop short of a full court press, at the moment, is Copps itself.
Reason I said the renovatting Copps could make it last another 40 years Copps Coliseum was bulit with future renovations in mind because if you look at the foot print of copps coliseum it is tripled that of any other arena in country also the roof of Copps coliseum was designed to be raised to make room for addtional seats & boxes & this can be done pretty quickly .

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10-07-2012, 04:07 PM
  #467
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Please go back and read my post, in it's entirety.

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10-08-2012, 03:46 AM
  #468
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A fairly critical article on Roustan from the Star:

Quote:
In hockey parlance, Roustan comes across as both the smooth-skating centre and the designated tough guy. He has scored some goals — like becoming the chairman of Bauer Performance Sports and building outdoor rinks for the Montreal Canadiens — but has piled up plenty of penalties too — in the form of lawsuits, bitter former business partners, questionable claims and a U.S. civil court ruling of statutory fraud in a rink deal.

Through it all, Roustan sells himself as a guy with connections, who knows his way around hockey front offices and just loves the smell of Zamboni fumes. A player with pull and passion, eyeing the big score.

His sights are squarely on Markham, where council has approved a financial framework for the proposed deal in which the city would borrow the money for the 20,000-seat arena.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crim...ot-of-his-life

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10-08-2012, 09:01 AM
  #469
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Pretty soon the NHL will have a "Greater Toronto" division consisting of 2 Toronto teams, 1 Markham, and 1 Hamilton.
Similar to NewYork? Yes, I agree but the 4 GTA teams would be more successful than the 3 NY teams. Not to mention Philadelphia is 55 miles away and washington and Boston are just 200 miles away.


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10-08-2012, 10:00 AM
  #470
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A fairly critical article on Roustan from the Star:



http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crim...ot-of-his-life
If I were a taxpayer ion Markham I would be very suspect of this sham. This guy is sounding more and more like the famous coin collecting billionaire of years gone by.

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10-08-2012, 12:42 PM
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[QUOTE=JMROWE;54830209]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
.... JM, theres absolutely no way the NHL could possibly charge $600M/$700M in Relo/Expansion Fee's

You mis understood what I ment by 600 - 700 million for a NHL. team in markham it is the combiened costs of the team & territory rights .

Markham
Arena - 350 million
Team - 300-400 million
Teritory - 250 million

= 900 million - 1 billion

Hamilton
Renovate Copps - 150 million
Team - 300 - 400 million
Teritory rights - MLSE. = 40 million Sabres = 30 million Total = 70 million

= 550 - 650 million
300/400m for the team?

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10-08-2012, 01:54 PM
  #472
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[QUOTE=Faltorvo;54845811]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post

300/400m for the team?
300m - Relocation
400m - Expansion

That is why Gary Bettman & the NHL. Would rather put an expansion teams in Hamilton & or Markham than relocate teams to thoses places is because they can milk as much money as they want in expansion fees to any prospective owners . That is why I belive Hamilton has better chance than Markham of landding an NHL. team because the total costs for an NHL. team would be cheaper to do in Hamilton rather than Markham .

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10-08-2012, 03:33 PM
  #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf357 View Post
So if a team is located in Markham what would they name it?
Would it be the Markham ........... the Ontario ........... the GTA ....... or the Toronto .......... of Markham (such as the Los Angles Angles of Aneheim)?

Do people from Markham condider themselves Torontonians?
The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey but go by New York, The Phoneix Coyotes are from Glendale, Ottawa Senators play in Kanata, I'm sure there are many,many more examples in Pro Sports.

Just currious though...would the new team located in Markham have Markham, or Toronto in its name?
I've wondered this as well.... if I had to guess, if a team ever gets in there, the Leafs would likely demand that any new team in the GTA not use "Toronto" as part of their name, which would likely force the team to use either Markham or Ontario. Personally, I think Ontario would be a more sensible naming choice then a single suburb in a sea of suburbs.

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10-09-2012, 11:04 AM
  #474
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If Hamilton is too close to Buffalo, I'd like to see Markham and the Kitchener-Waterloo area get a team.

Markham could be a team for the York Region, and the KW team could be for southwestern Ontario (i.e., Guelph, Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, Brantford, London, etc.; Windsor is probably within Detroit's territory).

Southwestern Ontario has 2.4 million people and York Region has just above 1 million people. York Region is rapidly growing and is nested in the GTA.

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10-09-2012, 11:43 AM
  #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
A fairly critical article on Roustan from the Star:



http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crim...ot-of-his-life
I was convinced that the fix was in, and that Markham was getting an NHL franchise in the future.

After reading that article, I'm not so convinced anymore. Reading that article paints a new picture.

Quote:
Critics say they have serious doubts about Roustan’s pitch, his business record and assertion the arena doesn’t need a major pro sports team to become viable. They are also wary about any extra tax burden on Markham residents.

Donna Bush, vice-president of the Markham Village City Ratepayers Association, told council that her preliminary research through quick online probing shows there should be concern about Roustan’s “integrity and credibility” and business acumen in steering the project.

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