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Brunner Signing

View Poll Results: Was Damien Brunner a good or bad signing?
Good signing 39 92.86%
Bad signing 3 7.14%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-02-2012, 12:29 AM
  #51
Winger98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I know... I know... If Eaves is healthy, Detroit I think is going to be forced to cut either Miller or Eaves, or trade a forward. I don't think Detroit goes into the seasons without at least one of Brunner or Nyquist in the lineup

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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Bert was signed knowing those two guys were having good AHL years and improving. Brunner was signed knowing all of this as well. Now maybe the Wings really thought Eaves was finished. But I think the signing points towards doom for someone else and that has been planned all along. We like to look at Bert's signing as overloading the roster, but the move really just locked him into the picture and pushed someone else out of favor. You can argue it is wrong, but until I see who is tossed out I am not going to get really worked up over it. I understand what he brings when I am not yelling at him to bring more of it more often. Sorry it is just hard for me to argue the value of keeping all of or a couple of Eaves, Miller, Emmerton, Mursak over Bert. Sure keep a couple of those four, but they really should be where we are trimming the fat in my opinion. They are all just a little too similar, Bert is more unique even if declining.
If the Wings had a different recent track record, I'd agree more about signing Bert while cutting Miller and/or Eaves. The Wings just haven't shown a willingness to do that, though - regardless of how well a guy plays in camp. When the Wings sign a vet to multiple years, they tend to stand with that contract and let it play out. I hope I'm wrong but, if everyone is healthy, I think GR is just going to have a very good forward group.

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10-02-2012, 01:10 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
It didn't prevent the Wings from going after UFA forwards, though. They made the right decision in letting Hudler walk. I think they also made the right decision in revamping the right side of their forward group. Where they went wrong was thinking they needed Bertuzzi, and that's it.
Parise... and who else for the top six who is capable of replacing Hudler?

If it was just Parise, then the Bertuzzi and Hudler decisions are not the problem, they're a symptom.

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10-02-2012, 01:37 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Parise... and who else for the top six who is capable of replacing Hudler?

If it was just Parise, then the Bertuzzi and Hudler decisions are not the problem, they're a symptom.
Hudler was one dimensional and had no long term future in Detroit. No point in signing him for that many years and that price. Sammy is garbage, but two years of garbage>four years of garbage. Especially with the cap going down.

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10-02-2012, 10:32 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Parise... and who else for the top six who is capable of replacing Hudler?

If it was just Parise, then the Bertuzzi and Hudler decisions are not the problem, they're a symptom.
Sammy would likely put up similar production in the top6. Plus he's bigger, stronger, a better skater, and better defensively. Still, I'd rather roll with Nyquist and Brunner in the top6 than Bert and Hudler. Sacrifice the points and polish now to develop them for later.

edit: unless we had signed Parise, of course.

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10-02-2012, 01:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Hudler was one dimensional and had no long term future in Detroit. No point in signing him for that many years and that price. Sammy is garbage, but two years of garbage>four years of garbage. Especially with the cap going down.
Four years for $4m per for a guy who just scored 23-17 at ES, and would probably have put up another 25 points on the PP had he been playing forward? Yeah, he's not a two-way hero. But Filppula was not much better two-way last year. He's also just entering his prime. That means he's getting BETTER. Sammy is getting near retirement.

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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Sammy would likely put up similar production in the top6.
Sammy's career high is 30-23-53. He posted 18-32-50 the next year. He played a little more than half of those two years with the Sedins, who combined for 118-277-395 and a Ross each, despite Daniel having missed 19 games the first season. That's 31-74-105 per 82 games. It's like playing with two linemates who scored that. And he posted comparable stats in THAT situation as Hudler did last season, with most of Hudler's scoring coming at ES. Hudler actually scored as many ES goals last year as Daniel Sedin did in his Ross year.

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Plus he's bigger, stronger, a better skater, and better defensively. Still, I'd rather roll with Nyquist and Brunner in the top6 than Bert and Hudler. Sacrifice the points and polish now to develop them for later.

Because Nyquist with his 22 total NHL games by age 23 and Brunner with his zero North American games by age 26 are completely reliable replacements for a proven top-six forward who is only 28.

edit: unless we had signed Parise, of course.
So in other words, Parise was the forward(s) Holland went after, aside from Parise?

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10-02-2012, 02:36 PM
  #56
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Sammy's averaged at least a .5 ppg every year since the last lockout except for one season he averaged .49. He and Hudler have produced at a remarkably similar rate over the past four or five years.

And Sammy didn't play with the Sedins the majority of the time in 2011. Sammy's top three line combos that year were:

MASON RAYMOND RYAN KESLER MIKAEL SAMUELSSON 10.25%
RAFFI TORRES MANNY MALHOTRA MIKAEL SAMUELSSON 5.39%
DANIEL SEDIN HENRIK SEDIN MIKAEL SAMUELSSON 4.57%

I couldn't find numbers from 09/10,but I think Burrows was on Sedin's line that year, too. I think Sammy's production jumped a bit because he was given a slightly larger, and more offensive, of a role. You know, sort of like Hudler last year.

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10-02-2012, 02:53 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Four years for $4m per for a guy who just scored 23-17 at ES, and would probably have put up another 25 points on the PP had he been playing forward? Yeah, he's not a two-way hero. But Filppula was not much better two-way last year. He's also just entering his prime. That means he's getting BETTER. Sammy is getting near retirement.
You have to understand that the team was trying to change the dynamic of the personnel they wanted to have at forward, which naturally coincides with the choices they made in the off-season. Hudler was a good and productive player, but what he brought to the table was in surplus on the wings and in the wings system. He is a smaller, below-average skating, left-handed playmaker. The Wings have a ton of those on their team and in their system. What type of players did they get after they cut Hudler loose? Brunner and Samuelsson. Good skaters, right-handed, shoot-first players. Jordin Tootoo a right handed pest who hits and fights. Gustav Nyquist who is also a left-handed playmaker, but is and will be one of the best skaters on the Detroit Red Wings. Plus he is 23 years and and can play this season in the top 6 potentially for $875,000.

We all know, and you have beat to absolute death, that Hudler was a productive player on the Wings. Like him or hate him, I don't think anyone really questions that. To evaluate the decision to not keep him for the money that he wanted, you have to look at the big picture and the entire dynamic of the offense and team. Not just his point totals/minutes played.

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10-03-2012, 12:26 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Sammy's averaged at least a .5 ppg every year since the last lockout except for one season he averaged .49. He and Hudler have produced at a remarkably similar rate over the past four or five years.

And Sammy didn't play with the Sedins the majority of the time in 2011. Sammy's top three line combos that year were:

MASON RAYMOND RYAN KESLER MIKAEL SAMUELSSON 10.25%
RAFFI TORRES MANNY MALHOTRA MIKAEL SAMUELSSON 5.39%
DANIEL SEDIN HENRIK SEDIN MIKAEL SAMUELSSON 4.57%

I couldn't find numbers from 09/10,but I think Burrows was on Sedin's line that year, too. I think Sammy's production jumped a bit because he was given a slightly larger, and more offensive, of a role. You know, sort of like Hudler last year.
Ok. I was going based on production (and frequency thereof) throughout the seasons. Sammy got around half of his points with the involvement of one or more Sedins.

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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
You have to understand that the team was trying to change the dynamic of the personnel they wanted to have at forward, which naturally coincides with the choices they made in the off-season. Hudler was a good and productive player, but what he brought to the table was in surplus on the wings and in the wings system.
Because top-six scoring forwards who can play all three spots are something the Wings just have in spades, right?

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He is a smaller, below-average skating, left-handed playmaker.
Who was the team's most effective goal scorer last season. If you say he's a playmaker, that means you think he's better at setting others up to score than he is at doing it himself. Which is probably accurate. But consider how well he scores goals before you dismiss his offensive ability. He was one of only three players last season to score 20 ES goals while averaging less than 14 mins per game at ES, and one of only three to hit 25 while averaging under 16 total. And the only one to do both.

Quote:
The Wings have a ton of those on their team and in their system. What type of players did they get after they cut Hudler loose? Brunner and Samuelsson. Good skaters, right-handed, shoot-first players. Jordin Tootoo a right handed pest who hits and fights.
So a Swiss league maybe, an aging second liner whose inflated best years are comparable to Hudler's recent years - but were done with more PP input and more total time. Hudler is only getting better. Samuelsson is only getting worse.

Quote:
Gustav Nyquist who is also a left-handed playmaker, but is and will be one of the best skaters on the Detroit Red Wings. Plus he is 23 years and and can play this season in the top 6 potentially for $875,000.
Him being on the top two lines doesn't make him Hudler's equal. That's like saying "Starting goalies are better than backup goalies." which, while true on its face, isn't entirely true. The worst starting goalies are not better than the best backup goalies.

Quote:
We all know, and you have beat to absolute death, that Hudler was a productive player on the Wings. Like him or hate him, I don't think anyone really questions that. To evaluate the decision to not keep him for the money that he wanted, you have to look at the big picture and the entire dynamic of the offense and team. Not just his point totals/minutes played.
Ok, let's look at it another way. The team's offensive dynamic.

Last season, the line Hudler was on as the "goal-scorer" produced more offense than any other line on the team.

Hudler's two best seasons coincide with Filppula's two best seasons. And even more coincidentally, they played on the same line all year those years. Filppula is considered a core offensive piece; is it not a good idea to keep around a similarly productive player with whom he has shown tremendous chemistry?

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10-03-2012, 02:28 AM
  #59
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5 games, 9 points over here in Switzerland. Playing far better than his linemate Linus Omark.

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10-03-2012, 05:51 AM
  #60
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5 games, 9 points over here in Switzerland. Playing far better than his linemate Linus Omark.
I guess that's nice to know for them, but it doesn't REALLY change that much.

First: Europe/Switzerland is not the NHL
It's nice to know, that Brunner can play well on a wide rink. It's nice to know, that Brunner can outscore a former NHL-3rd liner on a wide rink. You surely know, that exactly this Linus Omark dominated the SEL and was hyped like crazy, before he came to the NHL. And it surely doesn't look like he made the transition over there, doesn't it?

Second: The Red Wings still have a very promising prospect in Nyquist, who can't play because of the current situation.
There is not much more to add, you can see the discussion in this thread.

So him dominating the NLA is nice, but not relevant right now

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10-03-2012, 03:27 PM
  #61
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Ok, let's look at it another way. The team's offensive dynamic.

Last season, the line Hudler was on as the "goal-scorer" produced more offense than any other line on the team.

Hudler's two best seasons coincide with Filppula's two best seasons. And even more coincidentally, they played on the same line all year those years. Filppula is considered a core offensive piece; is it not a good idea to keep around a similarly productive player with whom he has shown tremendous chemistry?
If I had known that we would use our cap space for pretty much absolutely nothing, and would bring in a player that potentially blocks Nyquist from being on the team (Samuelsson, Brunner), then I probably would have been in favor of us keeping Hudler. But at the same time I can respect their decision for wanting to bring elements to the team that Hudler didn't bring. Having one less one-dimensional, undersized, playmaker may make the entire team better. Even if not one player comes in and puts up Hudler's production. All you mention is Hudler's point totals, but there is more at play that went into the decision that you fail to acknowledge.

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10-03-2012, 03:55 PM
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We have a stable full of Huds-esque prosepcts on the cusp who will be able to come in for a fraction on his cap-hit and they might be young/hungry enough to actually physically compete and play hard defensivley. Despite his hands and brains hes a very 1 dimensional player. Id rather see Pukkinen/Jurco/Jarnkrok given his spot in a few years. In the meantime the old dogs can keep the team competitive and the dressing room in check.

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10-04-2012, 06:56 AM
  #63
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Ok. I was going based on production (and frequency thereof) throughout the seasons. Sammy got around half of his points with the involvement of one or more Sedins.



Because top-six scoring forwards who can play all three spots are something the Wings just have in spades, right?



Who was the team's most effective goal scorer last season. If you say he's a playmaker, that means you think he's better at setting others up to score than he is at doing it himself. Which is probably accurate. But consider how well he scores goals before you dismiss his offensive ability. He was one of only three players last season to score 20 ES goals while averaging less than 14 mins per game at ES, and one of only three to hit 25 while averaging under 16 total. And the only one to do both.



So a Swiss league maybe, an aging second liner whose inflated best years are comparable to Hudler's recent years - but were done with more PP input and more total time. Hudler is only getting better. Samuelsson is only getting worse.



Him being on the top two lines doesn't make him Hudler's equal. That's like saying "Starting goalies are better than backup goalies." which, while true on its face, isn't entirely true. The worst starting goalies are not better than the best backup goalies.



Ok, let's look at it another way. The team's offensive dynamic.

Last season, the line Hudler was on as the "goal-scorer" produced more offense than any other line on the team.

Hudler's two best seasons coincide with Filppula's two best seasons. And even more coincidentally, they played on the same line all year those years. Filppula is considered a core offensive piece; is it not a good idea to keep around a similarly productive player with whom he has shown tremendous chemistry?

Would you like to borrow some chap stick?

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10-06-2012, 02:21 PM
  #64
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11 points in 6 games now, beast mode.

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10-06-2012, 02:53 PM
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And for the love of god re: Sammy ... He played with Kesler and Raymond or Higgins 80% of the time. Hed get put the Sedins for a game or two ONLY when Burrows was hurt or they were slumping. Enough of this coasting off the Sedins rhetoric - any Canuck fan would tell you its ********.

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10-06-2012, 06:12 PM
  #66
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And for the love of god re: Sammy ... He played with Kesler and Raymond or Higgins 80% of the time. Hed get put the Sedins for a game or two ONLY when Burrows was hurt or they were slumping. Enough of this coasting off the Sedins rhetoric - any Canuck fan would tell you its ********.
If that's the case, then his stats really are padded; they are in on about half of his points.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../scoring/2010/
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../scoring/2011/

Look it over for yourself.

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10-06-2012, 11:09 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If that's the case, then his stats really are padded; they are in on about half of his points.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../scoring/2010/
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play.../scoring/2011/

Look it over for yourself.
I was aware of those stats - I'm just saying he wasn't a fixture with the Sedins like some people seem to think he was. He was the plan B for Burrows under-performing. Obviously playing on the Presidents trophy winners in a division softer than a soggy hotdog bun isn't going to hurt a top-6 players stats either. While I don't ever see him hitting 30 goals again I dont see his overall production in Vancouver as unrealistic here given his ppg last year coming off a major surgery with a partial training camp, and some rehab complications that required several missed games early in the season. I think hes capable of producing effectively while keeping the seat warm for a few years before a Jarnkrok/Pukkinen/Jurco etc is ready to become a Wing.

I prefer that idea to another 4 years of pulling my hair out watching Hudler getting physically smothered and skated down on odd-man rushes like hes stuck in quicksand. With his recent release from his KHL team I cant help but wonder if he has been playing through an injury for a while ... watching the 08/09 cup runs recently on NHL channel he clearly had better wheels - in only 3 years his 3 step quickness and top-speed has regressed as though its been a decade. Partial groin/adductor tear that never healed correctly? The team trainers/therapists work with these guys day in and day out - I cant help but wonder if health status/concerns was an issue in negotiations as well.

End of the day in my "oppinion" is that I prefer a guy thats going to put up 40-45 points while being bigger, stronger, faster, and more defensivley responsible.

Huds at 50+ points being the smallest guy on the ice and slower than the speed of smell for another 4 years doesn't appeal to me. To be fair though, if PAvel goes home in 2 years, Bert/Sammy/Cleary are gone in 2 years, Franzen and Z drop off, and no kids become top 6'ers then I might have to swallow my pride and say "ah crap, really wish we had Hudler right now". Until that happens Ill stick with Sammy being an effective cheaper/shorter stopgap to faciliate our "log-jam" of fwds situation.

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10-07-2012, 04:36 PM
  #68
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I was aware of those stats - I'm just saying he wasn't a fixture with the Sedins like some people seem to think he was.
It's pretty clear just from numbers that there are stretches throughout his first season there where he was the regular RW on the line, and that he started his second year there on their line. He may not have played the majority, but he certainly got a huge chunk of time and it affected his numbers in an upward fashion.

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He was the plan B for Burrows under-performing. Obviously playing on the Presidents trophy winners in a division softer than a soggy hotdog bun isn't going to hurt a top-6 players stats either. While I don't ever see him hitting 30 goals again I dont see his overall production in Vancouver as unrealistic here given his ppg last year coming off a major surgery with a partial training camp, and some rehab complications that required several missed games early in the season. I think hes capable of producing effectively while keeping the seat warm for a few years before a Jarnkrok/Pukkinen/Jurco etc is ready to become a Wing.
Samuelsson also played in the EC last year, which is more offense-friendly; only five (Vancouver, Chicago, Detroit, Nashville, San Jose) of the top seventeen offenses last year were in the West. By the same token, only five of the top sixteen defensive teams (NYR, Boston, New Jersey, Montreal, Florida) were from the East. Eastern teams averaged offenses that scored 15.6 goals more on the season, or 0.2 GPG. Given that there are approximately 1.5 assists for every goal (as an average), and scoring is generally handled by 4-8 skaters on a team depending how deep they are, that works out to a 5-10 point difference (average). Which should put Sammy down to 40-45 points in the West... which is where he was before he left Detroit.

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I prefer that idea to another 4 years of pulling my hair out watching Hudler getting physically smothered and skated down on odd-man rushes like hes stuck in quicksand. With his recent release from his KHL team I cant help but wonder if he has been playing through an injury for a while ... watching the 08/09 cup runs recently on NHL channel he clearly had better wheels - in only 3 years his 3 step quickness and top-speed has regressed as though its been a decade. Partial groin/adductor tear that never healed correctly? The team trainers/therapists work with these guys day in and day out - I cant help but wonder if health status/concerns was an issue in negotiations as well.

End of the day in my "oppinion" is that I prefer a guy thats going to put up 40-45 points while being bigger, stronger, faster, and more defensivley responsible.

Huds at 50+ points being the smallest guy on the ice and slower than the speed of smell for another 4 years doesn't appeal to me. To be fair though, if PAvel goes home in 2 years, Bert/Sammy/Cleary are gone in 2 years, Franzen and Z drop off, and no kids become top 6'ers then I might have to swallow my pride and say "ah crap, really wish we had Hudler right now". Until that happens Ill stick with Sammy being an effective cheaper/shorter stopgap to faciliate our "log-jam" of fwds situation.
So you're fully recognizing that it would have been a good idea to keep Hudler, while saying it was a bad idea? Sammy is less effective, much older, and not much cheaper. Hudler in two years might be an 80-point forward, while Sammy might be retired.

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10-07-2012, 05:21 PM
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It's pretty clear just from numbers that there are stretches throughout his first season there where he was the regular RW on the line, and that he started his second year there on their line. He may not have played the majority, but he certainly got a huge chunk of time and it affected his numbers in an upward fashion.
And when that argument is made against Hudler (playing with Z and Filppula, or Datsyuk) you come up with some BS to defend him. You hate Sammy and love Hudler, we get it. Become a Flames fan if you miss Hudler so bad, he's a bum.

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10-07-2012, 09:51 PM
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Hudler in two years might be an 80-point forward, while Sammy might be retired.
I'd bet A LOT of money he's not.

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10-07-2012, 10:12 PM
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And when that argument is made against Hudler (playing with Z and Filppula, or Datsyuk) you come up with some BS to defend him. You hate Sammy and love Hudler, we get it. Become a Flames fan if you miss Hudler so bad, he's a bum.
I don't hate Sammy, I actually like him because he's a reliable secondary scorer who is decent defensively and a solid skater. I am just realistic about the fact that he's a downgrade from Hudler.

As I've said before, Sammy would likely have been available later in the UFA process. Holland should have signed Hudler, and then signed Sammy later after Parise said no. Not having Bert signed would have helped further.

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10-07-2012, 11:21 PM
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. Hudler in two years might be an 80-point forward, while Sammy might be retired.
Not even a slight chance, you're love affair with Hudler is pretty ridiculous.

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10-07-2012, 11:59 PM
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Not even a slight chance, you're love affair with Hudler is pretty ridiculous.
Thomas Vanek has scored 80 points. Jiri Hudler outscored him at ES, along with other top scorers like Teemu Selanne. Others like Eric Staal were close to Hudler's ES production. And Hudler played far less ES time; he'd have needed an additional 2-3 minutes (15-20% more) at ES. So add the high end (20%) to his ES numbers and you see 28-20-48, which is almost identical to Phil Kessel's actual ES production (27-22-49). And Kessel's ESTOI was just a little bit over 20% more than Hudler's.

So Hudler as an 80-point forward is very realistic if he's given the chance.

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10-08-2012, 01:21 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Thomas Vanek has scored 80 points. Jiri Hudler outscored him at ES, along with other top scorers like Teemu Selanne. Others like Eric Staal were close to Hudler's ES production. And Hudler played far less ES time; he'd have needed an additional 2-3 minutes (15-20% more) at ES. So add the high end (20%) to his ES numbers and you see 28-20-48, which is almost identical to Phil Kessel's actual ES production (27-22-49). And Kessel's ESTOI was just a little bit over 20% more than Hudler's.

So Hudler as an 80-point forward is very realistic if he's given the chance.
I could have seen an 70-80 point season in Detroit, with Zetterberg or Datsyuk as his center and a good role on the PP.

But I don't see it in Calgary. They lack puck possession centers. They lack puck possession forwards.

If you were to ask me to name the worst three possible teams Hudler could go to, Calgary would be on my list.

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10-08-2012, 01:58 AM
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pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I could have seen an 70-80 point season in Detroit, with Zetterberg or Datsyuk as his center and a good role on the PP.

But I don't see it in Calgary. They lack puck possession centers. They lack puck possession forwards.

If you were to ask me to name the worst three possible teams Hudler could go to, Calgary would be on my list.
Cammalleri? Tanguay? They are absolutely puck possession guys. Iginla totally has the skill to play that game. Even Stajan can play the puck possession game.

Don't know much about Cervenka, but from what I've heard he's supposed to have the skill to play that kind of game.

And Bob Hartley is the new coach there, so that's the game they'll be playing.

Hudler should be just fine in Calgary. I just wonder about Calgary's center issue; will it be Cammalleri, Tanguay, Hudler, or Stajan who centers the first line? Very interesting question there.

Of course that's waaaay off topic from Damien Brunner.

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