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#1 defenseman to Detroit

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Old
10-08-2012, 09:49 AM
  #276
irishtemper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
Except their prospects haven't exactly shown all that much outside the NHL, with the exception of Smith, Jurco, Spruoul, and Oullet.

Tomas Tatar, who's from the same draft year as "already labelled bust" Nazem Kadri hasn't improved much over his three years in the AHL (57 points in 70 games in the 2010 - 2011 season, 58 points in 76 games in the 2011 - 2012 season).

Gustav Nyquist, and Joakim Andersson are both 23 years old, and if they can't crack an NHL roster in the next year or two will be busts.

After scoring 54 points in 55 games in the SM-liiga in the 2010 - 2011 season, Teemu Pulkkinen put up only 37 points in 56 games in the 2011 - 2012 season, and this season has only 3 points in 10 games.

Their only non-junior prospect with much value at this point is Smith.
Well that's just proof you have not watched any of them play (namely Tatar).

He has improved every year in Grand Rapids, last year the wings wanted him to work on the defensive side of the puck and his strength in his own zone. As a regular viewer of the Griffins he was always one of the bright spots amongst the ****** career AHL-ers the previous coach loved to put out there all the time.

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Old
10-08-2012, 09:55 AM
  #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
Except their prospects haven't exactly shown all that much outside the NHL, with the exception of Smith, Jurco, Spruoul, and Oullet.

Tomas Tatar, who's from the same draft year as "already labelled bust" Nazem Kadri hasn't improved much over his three years in the AHL (57 points in 70 games in the 2010 - 2011 season, 58 points in 76 games in the 2011 - 2012 season).

Gustav Nyquist, and Joakim Andersson are both 23 years old, and if they can't crack an NHL roster in the next year or two will be busts.

After scoring 54 points in 55 games in the SM-liiga in the 2010 - 2011 season, Teemu Pulkkinen put up only 37 points in 56 games in the 2011 - 2012 season, and this season has only 3 points in 10 games.

Their only non-junior prospect with much value at this point is Smith.
Slightly OT:

Tatar has completely reworked his game in the 3 years he has been with the wings. From when he made Grand Rapids out of training camp his first year, to completely altering parts of his game, Tatar has been anything but a disappointment.

When Tatar joined Grand Rapids he was pretty much the prototypical skilled wings prospect (he was a perimeter player). He stayed that way until last year when he realized that in order to make the wings you have to understand how to play in both ends of the ice, he worked heavily on his play away from the puck and now he will be able to succeed in a 3rd/4th line role on the wings. Also have a look at his WC stats & how he's doing right now, on any other team Tatar would be penciled on to a 3rd
line.

Nyquist just played his first full season of pro hockey and was a P/G player. He came up and in his limited time in the NHL showed flashes of why he should be a mainstay on Datsyuk's wing for the next couple of year.

I don't see why you bring up Andersson as his max ceiling is a 3rd liner, he just has lower risk for not reaching it.

It looks like you're using Stats to back up all of your arguments, if you don't follow another teams prospects then just using stats will make you look like a fool as their can be other things happened that may affect a prospects overall score sheet.

ie: You say Pulkkinen only had 37 points in 56 games (it was a disappointing year, no doubt about it) but it's not as bad as you make it seem as Pulkkinen was still 2nd or 3rd on Jokerit in scoring.

(I also don't see why you brought up Kadri who was a top 10 pick. Kadri being a top 10 pick has a higher amount of expectations than Tatar who was the 60th. he doesn't have the same kind of expectations as Kadri to contribute right away)


Last edited by DatsyukToZetterberg: 10-08-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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Old
10-08-2012, 10:02 AM
  #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Slightly OT:

Tatar has completely reworked his game in the 3 years he has been with the wings. From when he made Grand Rapids out of training camp his first year, to completely altering parts of his game, Tatar has been anything but a disappointment.

When Tatar joined Grand Rapids he was pretty much the prototypical skilled wings prospect (he was a perimeter player). He stayed that way until last year when he realized that in order to make the wings you have to understand how to play in both ends of the ice, he worked heavily on his play away from the puck and now he will be able to succeed in a 3rd/4th line role on the wings. Also have a look at his WC stats & how he's doing right now, on any other team Tatar would be penciled on to a 3rd
line.

Nyquist just played his first full season of pro hockey and was a P/G player. He came up and in his limited time in the NHL showed that he showed flashes of why he should be a mainstay on Datsyuk's wing for the next couple of year.

I don't see why you bring up Andersson as his max ceiling is a 3rd liner, he just has lower risk for not reaching it.

It looks like you're using Stats to back up all of your arguments, if you don't follow another teams prospects then just using stats will make you look like a fool as their can be other things happened that may affect a prospects overall score sheet.

ie: You say Pulkkinen only had 37 points in 56 games (it was a disappointing year, no doubt about it) but it's not as bad as you make it seem as Pulkkinen was still 2nd or 3rd on Jokerit in scoring.

(I also don't see why you brought up Kadri who was a top 10 pick. Kadri being a top 10 pick has a higher amount of expectations than Tatar who was the 60th. he doesn't have the same kind of expectations as Kadri to contribute right away)
Excellent points are made here. I kind of want to put it all in bold and red just so people read it.

The only issue I have is the "on any other team" part. Developmentality speaking, Detroit isn't "every other team" (though there are others who take great care in how they develop prospects), but I think talent-wise Detroit is "any other team" at the moment. They haven't yet had to melt down their throne for money, but they also haven't been sitting in it for a little bit.

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Old
10-08-2012, 10:18 AM
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Slightly OT:

Tatar has completely reworked his game in the 3 years he has been with the wings. From when he made Grand Rapids out of training camp his first year, to completely altering parts of his game, Tatar has been anything but a disappointment.

When Tatar joined Grand Rapids he was pretty much the prototypical skilled wings prospect (he was a perimeter player). He stayed that way until last year when he realized that in order to make the wings you have to understand how to play in both ends of the ice, he worked heavily on his play away from the puck and now he will be able to succeed in a 3rd/4th line role on the wings. Also have a look at his WC stats & how he's doing right now, on any other team Tatar would be penciled on to a 3rd
line.

Nyquist just played his first full season of pro hockey and was a P/G player. He came up and in his limited time in the NHL showed that he showed flashes of why he should be a mainstay on Datsyuk's wing for the next couple of year.

I don't see why you bring up Andersson as his max ceiling is a 3rd liner, he just has lower risk for not reaching it.

It looks like you're using Stats to back up all of your arguments, if you don't follow another teams prospects then just using stats will make you look like a fool as their can be other things happened that may affect a prospects overall score sheet.

ie: You say Pulkkinen only had 37 points in 56 games (it was a disappointing year, no doubt about it) but it's not as bad as you make it seem as Pulkkinen was still 2nd or 3rd on Jokerit in scoring.

(I also don't see why you brought up Kadri who was a top 10 pick. Kadri being a top 10 pick has a higher amount of expectations than Tatar who was the 60th. he doesn't have the same kind of expectations as Kadri to contribute right away)
I'm not saying I'm the biggest follower of Detroit's prospects, but if these prospects were in any other organization people would have a way different (lesser) opinion of them. Simply because they're Red Wings prospects, people place a higher value on them than other prospects. None of those prospects are particularly great prospects (IMO of course), but because they're Red Wings prospects people view them differently.

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10-08-2012, 10:29 AM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Excellent points are made here. I kind of want to put it all in bold and red just so people read it.

The only issue I have is the "on any other team" part. Developmentality speaking, Detroit isn't "every other team" (though there are others who take great care in how they develop prospects), but I think talent-wise Detroit is "any other team" at the moment. They haven't yet had to melt down their throne for money, but they also haven't been sitting in it for a little bit.
I meant that because of all the veterans that Detroit has signed he won't be able to play this year. On any other team he would atleast have the chance to make the Wings but because we're too loyal to our veterans (Bert,Sammy,Cleary,etc) he won't be giving the chance (thus the any other team mention).

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10-08-2012, 10:50 AM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
I meant that because of all the veterans that Detroit has signed he won't be able to play this year. On any other team he would atleast have the chance to make the Wings but because we're too loyal to our veterans (Bert,Sammy,Cleary,etc) he won't be giving the chance (thus the any other team mention).
Fair enough, and I agree. My fault. I should've picked up on that earlier.

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10-08-2012, 11:22 AM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
I'm not saying I'm the biggest follower of Detroit's prospects, but if these prospects were in any other organization people would have a way different (lesser) opinion of them. Simply because they're Red Wings prospects, people place a higher value on them than other prospects. None of those prospects are particularly great prospects (IMO of course), but because they're Red Wings prospects people view them differently.
This has nothing to do with it. Why is that unless a player improves statistically on here that they are considered "regressing" if they dont improve? Why cant it be a fact that his offense took a small hit or stayed consistent if he re-worked his game? Maybe its also the fact the Griffins roster is pretty weak in terms of quality depth over the years to work with. Ugh

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10-08-2012, 12:24 PM
  #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
I'm not saying I'm the biggest follower of Detroit's prospects, but if these prospects were in any other organization people would have a way different (lesser) opinion of them. Simply because they're Red Wings prospects, people place a higher value on them than other prospects. None of those prospects are particularly great prospects (IMO of course), but because they're Red Wings prospects people view them differently.
Agree with the bolded part.

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10-08-2012, 01:11 PM
  #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
I'm not saying I'm the biggest follower of Detroit's prospects, but if these prospects were in any other organization people would have a way different (lesser) opinion of them. Simply because they're Red Wings prospects, people place a higher value on them than other prospects. None of those prospects are particularly great prospects (IMO of course), but because they're Red Wings prospects people view them differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Agree with the bolded part.
There is that whole 20 year track record thing they have going for them. I am not going to say that they might not be a touch overrated. Seems every fan-base makes this claim, that so and so's team is overrated and they don't get the right amount of love.

I think the Wings being rated highly is fairly dead on right now. They have had nice answers as far as D and goalie over the last year so the weakness points have really gone away. Are all these kids going to make it? Of course not, but what I can say is this is honestly the deepest the Wings prospect pool has been since the late 80's and early 90's. They have a lot of talent in it, they have a lot of bullets to fire and see who pans out. I know you are a fan of a different team and as pointed out don't know a ton about each guy. However, the fact you didn't list Jarnkrok who played for the Swedish WC team and helped win the SEL at a point a game in the postseason as a guy playing well in the pros is also pretty funny. In my opinion he is the Wings second best prospect, as in better than Nyquist, Tatar and Jurco.

The whole Detroit's prospects are always overrated angle by other teams fan-bases is actually what I think is blinding them to admission of what is going on here. The Wings aren't trading as many draft picks or prospects, this has been the plan since the last lockout. They wanted to load the pipeline and have talked at length about how much more valuable it is now. They have done it, what scares me is they will trade a bunch of these guys. You cannot believe and that is fine, but the Wings prospect pool runs very deep on talent and potential.

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10-09-2012, 11:48 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
Except their prospects haven't exactly shown all that much outside the NHL, with the exception of Smith, Jurco, Spruoul, and Oullet.

Tomas Tatar, who's from the same draft year as "already labelled bust" Nazem Kadri hasn't improved much over his three years in the AHL (57 points in 70 games in the 2010 - 2011 season, 58 points in 76 games in the 2011 - 2012 season).

Gustav Nyquist, and Joakim Andersson are both 23 years old, and if they can't crack an NHL roster in the next year or two will be busts.

After scoring 54 points in 55 games in the SM-liiga in the 2010 - 2011 season, Teemu Pulkkinen put up only 37 points in 56 games in the 2011 - 2012 season, and this season has only 3 points in 10 games.

Their only non-junior prospect with much value at this point is Smith.
Somebody clearly didn't watch Nyquist in 2011-12 and has apparently never even heard of Jarnkrok...

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01-04-2013, 02:28 PM
  #286
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E. Johnson for Filppula?

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01-04-2013, 02:31 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by jphizzleruzbizzle View Post
E. Johnson for Filppula?
Way to bring back an old thread. That trade makes zero sense for Colorado at all. The need a LH defenseman to play with Johnson. Filppula fills no need for the Avs while creating a huge hole one the team.

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01-04-2013, 02:38 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobloblawLeaf View Post
I'm not saying I'm the biggest follower of Detroit's prospects, but if these prospects were in any other organization people would have a way different (lesser) opinion of them. Simply because they're Red Wings prospects, people place a higher value on them than other prospects. None of those prospects are particularly great prospects (IMO of course), but because they're Red Wings prospects people view them differently.
I really like Nyquist and Tatar myself, but I think this is true to an extent.

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01-04-2013, 04:28 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Way to bring back an old thread. That trade makes zero sense for Colorado at all. The need a LH defenseman to play with Johnson. Filppula fills no need for the Avs while creating a huge hole one the team.
I agree the trade doesn't work well for each team, but I don't see the problem bringing back an old thread.

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01-04-2013, 05:29 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The Wings' current defense looks something like this:

Niklas Kronwall/Ian White
Kyle Quincey/Jonathan Ericsson
Jakub Kindl/Brendan Smith
Carlo Colaiacovo

What/who would be the trade to get a #1 defenseman added on, someone who can play the shut-down role well 20+ minutes a night and has offensive skills?

Off-limits are:
Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard

Ideally off-limits:
Filppula, Nyquist, Smith

I'm going to start with a baseline:

Johan Franzen + Kyle Quincey = Tobias Enstrom + Kyle Wellwood + WPG 2nd
I consider this deal to be AWFUL for the Jets

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01-04-2013, 10:22 PM
  #291
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Isn't 34 the right side of 30?just wondering
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Lol?? 30 goal scorer? Franzen has scored 30 goals ONCE and sure he's on a 3.9M cap hit, but that's until 2020. Datsyuk is good but he's 34, how long can he keep it up? Smith and Nyquist are good prospects for sure, I think our two prospects equate that or are better especially if you're including Ennis in the deal. Our first we'll ignore cause who knows what it will be.

Datsyuk is a beast and I woubld love him on our team, but this deal makes no sense for Buffalo AT ALL. We're basically trading our future #1 defenseman for 2 guys on the wrong side of 30.

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01-04-2013, 11:24 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
What/who would be the trade to get a #1 defenseman added on, someone who can play the shut-down role well 20+ minutes a night and has offensive skills?

Off-limits are:
Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard

Ideally off-limits:
Filppula, Nyquist, Smith

I'm going to start with a baseline:

Johan Franzen + Kyle Quincey = Tobias Enstrom + Kyle Wellwood + WPG 2nd
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
I consider this deal to be AWFUL for the Jets
It is also a non-starter for the Jets as, of their top 4 D, Enstrom (#1or2) and Bogosian (#3) are off the table. But Byfuglien (#2or1) and Hainsey (#4) are potentially in play.
In addition to the above top-4, the Jets have an additional 5 NHL-calibre defencemen in their orbit, not to mention Jacob Trouba in the wings. The Jets are looking 2-3 years out before they make a serious run and are in need of a top-6 forward. They could give up current talent for future potential. I am also assuming Wpg will draft significanly higher than Det in 2013.

So, how about: Buff, Postma, Wellwood and a Wpg 2nd = Smith, Ouellet, Filppula and a Det first.

Hainsey could also be part of a different package.

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01-05-2013, 12:05 AM
  #293
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It is also a non-starter for the Jets as, of their top 4 D, Enstrom (#1or2) and Bogosian (#3) are off the table. But Byfuglien (#2or1) and Hainsey (#4) are potentially in play.
In addition to the above top-4, the Jets have an additional 5 NHL-calibre defencemen in their orbit, not to mention Jacob Trouba in the wings. The Jets are looking 2-3 years out before they make a serious run and are in need of a top-6 forward. They could give up current talent for future potential. I am also assuming Wpg will draft significanly higher than Det in 2013.

So, how about: Buff, Postma, Wellwood and a Wpg 2nd = Smith, Ouellet, Filppula and a Det first.

Hainsey could also be part of a different package.
That's a ton to give up. It doesn't even make sense for Detroit anyways as we need a defensive guy, not another offensive dman.

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01-05-2013, 12:16 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
It is also a non-starter for the Jets as, of their top 4 D, Enstrom (#1or2) and Bogosian (#3) are off the table. But Byfuglien (#2or1) and Hainsey (#4) are potentially in play.
In addition to the above top-4, the Jets have an additional 5 NHL-calibre defencemen in their orbit, not to mention Jacob Trouba in the wings. The Jets are looking 2-3 years out before they make a serious run and are in need of a top-6 forward. They could give up current talent for future potential. I am also assuming Wpg will draft significanly higher than Det in 2013.

So, how about: Buff, Postma, Wellwood and a Wpg 2nd = Smith, Ouellet, Filppula and a Det first.

Hainsey could also be part of a different package.
For what they're getting back, Detroit gets utterly ran over in that trade.

Buff is the type of defender we don't need. We give up our top two defensive prospects for him. We give up the only part of our top six under 30 for him. And we give up a 1st for him.

Utterly steamrolled.

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01-05-2013, 02:29 AM
  #295
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Green for Filpulla, Kindl, Nyquist, Ericsson. As a framework at least.

Green's put up some dominant seasons before and Kronwall would be by far the best partner Green's ever had on D.

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01-05-2013, 02:35 AM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Green for Filpulla, Kindl, Nyquist, Ericsson. As a framework at least.

Green's put up some dominant seasons before and Kronwall would be by far the best partner Green's ever had on D.
Yikes. As someone who wants to see Detroit make this kind of move... Yikes.

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01-05-2013, 02:40 AM
  #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Green for Filpulla, Kindl, Nyquist, Ericsson. As a framework at least.

Green's put up some dominant seasons before and Kronwall would be by far the best partner Green's ever had on D.
God this is awful. Again, Green isn't what we need anyways.

What is so hard about understanding that Detroit needs a defensive defenseman?

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01-05-2013, 08:38 AM
  #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Green for Filpulla, Kindl, Nyquist, Ericsson. As a framework at least.

Green's put up some dominant seasons before and Kronwall would be by far the best partner Green's ever had on D.
Let's make proposals for Yandle and Karlsson too, then maybe when those are both rejected people will figure out Detroit wants somebody who can actually play defense...

And Detroit gets hosed in that proposal anyways.

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01-05-2013, 12:16 PM
  #299
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Let's make proposals for Yandle and Karlsson too, then maybe when those are both rejected people will figure out Detroit wants somebody who can actually play defense...

And Detroit gets hosed in that proposal anyways.
yah exactly and when will people realize detroit wants a true #1 dman, of which maybe only 15-20 exist in the entire NHL, who not only can log 25 plus mins a game and put up 45plus pts but is also steadfast in his own zone and demands said player for nothing more then the likes of 2nd or 3rd line at best players, B prospects or players 32 years of age and older.

Come on down NHL GM's, your chance to be screwed by detroit is waiting...

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01-05-2013, 12:40 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
yah exactly and when will people realize detroit wants a true #1 dman, of which maybe only 15-20 exist in the entire NHL, who not only can log 25 plus mins a game and put up 45plus pts but is also steadfast in his own zone and demands said player for nothing more then the likes of 2nd or 3rd line at best players, B prospects or players 32 years of age and older.

Come on down NHL GM's, your chance to be screwed by detroit is waiting...
Phaneuf+MacArthur

Datsyuk+Franson

Phaneuf hits all of your marks.

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