You keep making statements about the merits of what each side has offered as if you are in the room. The fact is we have no idea what is really going on in the negotiations.
I am making these statements based on the information that has come out publicly about the negotiations.
The NHL has made three seperate offers while the NHLPA has made one.
In each of the NHL offers they have made concessions. These are not blanket statements or assumptions. These are facts.
And it's the fault of A) The Players B) their agents and C) the GMs
A guy like Shea Weber didn't HAVE to sign that offer sheet with Philly, but he did, which in turn set a standard. Holmgren didn't have to put forth that offer sheet, which he did, it ergo set a standard.
It's not like the players are AT ALL free of blame from the increasing price of contracts. After all, guys like Doughty held out for more, as did Penner back in the day...and then you have things like the Weber offer sheet, the Vanek offer sheet....
Do you think these players are going to say no to more money just to preserve the health of the league? No,. Are they going to tell their agents don't get me the best deal available, instead get me a lesser money deal with a low market team. No, they do the exact opposite and then they blame the owners/GMs at a time like this. They pass the buck of responsibility and say, "Well if that contract you're offering is going to hurt the league then don't offer it to me." And then they sign it and enjoy their pay increase.
So hey man, don't give me that gun cause I might shoot someone with it. Then they shoot someone and blame the guy who handed it to them.
Both are to blame equally. The players/agents and the GMs. The NHLPA and the players are by no means as innocent in ANY of this as they like to make themselves seem.
They are just as guilty of driving up the prices as any GM is due to things like what Doughty did, and Vanek, and Weber.
The teams have to put the offer sheets on the table to be signed in the first place. It's nice and all for the players to make salary demands, there's nothing that says any team needs to meet them.
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings
They pass the buck of responsibility and say, "Well if that contract you're offering is going to hurt the league then don't offer it to me."
How exactly is this the wrong thing to do? The owners know how much they're making, what their costs are and what they can afford. It's no different for me going into a job negotiation asking for a certain salary. I ask for as much as I think I can get, and if the prospective employer offers it to me, I expect it's because they know they can afford it. It's not up to me to know if they can or not...
The teams have to put the offer sheets on the table to be signed in the first place. It's nice and all for the players to make salary demands, there's nothing that says any team needs to meet them.
How exactly is this the wrong thing to do? The owners know how much they're making, what their costs are and what they can afford. It's no different for me going into a job negotiation asking for a certain salary. I ask for as much as I think I can get, and if the prospective employer offers it to me, I expect it's because they know they can afford it. It's not up to me to know if they can or not...
For the love of god and for Nthteenth time. This is NOT every day. This is not your job, or my job. This is not like real life.
So let me ask you, at your job, are there 29 other companies competing directly with each other to win a trophy? Do you only work for 7 months out of the year? At your interview did you have an agent go in and negotiate for you? How about this, did you go in and tell the company you are applying to, "Hey guys, the place down the street wants to hire me for twice as much money..so yea...what do you think of that?"
No. You don't. Your company probably also isn't a sports organization, you are not Shea Weber, and your boss isn't Paul Holmgren, you're not making a 7-figure salary, and you have never had your face on a CCM Ad.
You also haven't been being an accountant/salesperson/construction worker/police offer/etc.etc. since age 4. Also, people don't pay good money to come watch you do taxes, arrest people, or build houses unless you are on a reality show like The Deadliest Catch, in which case my good friend you are awesome.
So can we please stop comparing the NHL, these negotiations, the NHLPA, to every day jobs and realistic things that we all go through in our collective occupations? Please? Pretty please?
It's not the same, it will never be the same, and it never has been the same. It has absolutely zero relevance to anything we are talking about here, so trying to make a case paralleling it to a job as a post man...it's not even comparing apples and oranges. It's comparing apples and the international space station.
Guys... the last thing the lockout should be doing is prompting folks to argue here. Just suffice it to say the lockout sucks and let's try not to strangle each other waiting for hockey.
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"In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened." - Vin Scully being clairvoyant in 1988.
The Los Angeles Kings - 2012 Stanley Cup Champions
For the love of god and for Nthteenth time. This is NOT every day. This is not your job, or my job. This is not like real life.
So let me ask you, at your job, are there 29 other companies competing directly with each other to win a trophy? Do you only work for 7 months out of the year? At your interview did you have an agent go in and negotiate for you? How about this, did you go in and tell the company you are applying to, "Hey guys, the place down the street wants to hire me for twice as much money..so yea...what do you think of that?"
No. You don't. Your company probably also isn't a sports organization, you are not Shea Weber, and your boss isn't Paul Holmgren, you're not making a 7-figure salary, and you have never had your face on a CCM Ad.
You also haven't been being an accountant/salesperson/construction worker/police offer/etc.etc. since age 4. Also, people don't pay good money to come watch you do taxes, arrest people, or build houses unless you are on a reality show like The Deadliest Catch, in which case my good friend you are awesome.
So can we please stop comparing the NHL, these negotiations, the NHLPA, to every day jobs and realistic things that we all go through in our collective occupations? Please? Pretty please?
It's not the same, it will never be the same, and it never has been the same. It has absolutely zero relevance to anything we are talking about here, so trying to make a case paralleling it to a job as a post man...it's not even comparing apples and oranges. It's comparing apples and the international space station.
Someone secretly switched Jay's coffee with Folger's Crystals.
For the love of god and for Nthteenth time. This is NOT every day. This is not your job, or my job. This is not like real life.
So let me ask you, at your job, are there 29 other companies competing directly with each other to win a trophy? Do you only work for 7 months out of the year? At your interview did you have an agent go in and negotiate for you? How about this, did you go in and tell the company you are applying to, "Hey guys, the place down the street wants to hire me for twice as much money..so yea...what do you think of that?"
No. You don't. Your company probably also isn't a sports organization, you are not Shea Weber, and your boss isn't Paul Holmgren, you're not making a 7-figure salary, and you have never had your face on a CCM Ad.
You also haven't been being an accountant/salesperson/construction worker/police offer/etc.etc. since age 4. Also, people don't pay good money to come watch you do taxes, arrest people, or build houses unless you are on a reality show like The Deadliest Catch, in which case my good friend you are awesome.
So can we please stop comparing the NHL, these negotiations, the NHLPA, to every day jobs and realistic things that we all go through in our collective occupations? Please? Pretty please?
It's not the same, it will never be the same, and it never has been the same. It has absolutely zero relevance to anything we are talking about here, so trying to make a case paralleling it to a job as a post man...it's not even comparing apples and oranges. It's comparing apples and the international space station.
agree - I get tired of fans (mostly on the main board) saying it's the same thing as any union worker - just cuz a NHL players' salary is a bazillion dollars doesn't make a difference. Yes, it does.
And am I the only person in America that liked the movie the Post Man? In theory at least, it could have been done better (but isn't that true about almost every movie?). Kevin Costner takes waaay too much **** for a pretty good film.
And am I the only person in America that liked the movie the Post Man? In theory at least, it could have been done better (but isn't that true about almost every movie?). Kevin Costner takes waaay too much **** for a pretty good film.
Kind of cool. Bobby Ryan played roller hockey yesterday in Vegas, and even played in a tournament:
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"It has not been a good day. I lost my glasses early this morning and I had to go buy a pair of 79 dollar reading glasses today. 79 bucks. You can literally get them at Costco, three-for-20." - Darryl Sutter's response to going up 2-0 in the series.
Also, here is Bob McKenzie's recent twitter reaction to the lockout (this is his combined tweets from yesterday): https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie
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I've purposely avoided too many lockout tweets but in honor of anniversary (1 week) of Krys Barch's salue to OV, answers to some oft asked ?
My instincts say we'll lose the whole year but we've still got a month or two to salvage a Dec or Jan start up, so we'll see. I suspect we'll see our first real movement from either side in coming week but whether that creates legit traction for talks, who knows? At this point, I don't doubt either side's resolve. That may be the problem. Owners think players will cave. Players think owners will cave. I think, like last time, we'll lose the season before anyone blinks.
I'm dismayed that the NHL is insistent on getting such a significant and immediate clawback (57 to 50 per cent). Too much, too soon. But it's equally discouraging that we are cancelling games and players are still stuck on notion of not taking any tangibe dollar reduction. Maybe it's posturing to get best deal possible at right time but if players insist on no tangible reduction to actual $, turn out the lights I don't doubt players' resolve, but I am surprised at how many players think Bettman and/or owners will blink. Maybe they will, but...
...But of all the things I've learned in 30+ yrs covering this game, Bettman, Jeremy Jacobs and Ed Snider don't strike me as bluffers. And last time I checked, Don Fehr isn't a guy who shies away from a fight. So that pretty much brings us to where we are. Fans, as angry as they are, have no voice in this dispute, at this moment. But once dispute is over, they have the only voice that matters. I'm not saying you shouldn't voice frustration/anger now, I'm saying the only real impact you have is by not spending your $$$.
Hey, I could be completely wrong. These things tend to take on a life of their own. And I do anticipate some movement in the coming week. But Fehr wasn't hired to roll over and Bettman's history suggests he doesn't play bluff poker, so...
As for most frequently asked questions: if lockout goes all year, players lose or burn that year of their contract...
...If lockout ends in mid-season, contracted NHL players playing in Europe have out clauses to come back. Biggest fear, and maybe this why it won't last all season, is if it goes whole season, prospects of 2nd season being affected are high IMO. If season is lost, I can see NHLPA putting salary cap back on table. Then we have a fight that makes this one look like Boy Scout Jamboree. Hopefully, sanity prevails and we get some movement/traction this week. We'll see. G'nite, hang in, we're merely spectators, for now, anyway
BTW, as pessimistic as I have been, still hopeful this coming week may bring actual negotiations for the first time. In the meantime, Happy Thanksgiving in Canada, and I hope Americans have a splendid Columbus Day weekend.
Kind of cool. Bobby Ryan played roller hockey yesterday in Vegas, and even played in a tournament:
I dont know how those guys do it. Before my back surgery ended my Hockey non-career, there's NO WAY I could have mixed inline and blade skating. Inline is just so much different and it screwed up my muscle memory for ice. But then again, I dont do it for a living and its not like BR is doing much ice right now.
The teams have to put the offer sheets on the table to be signed in the first place. It's nice and all for the players to make salary demands, there's nothing that says any team needs to meet them.
Except for the cap floor. Teams have to meet that, so they have to spend money. Plus, there's always the murky cloud of collusion hanging over everything if salaries don't go up.
Everyone looks for the loopholes during the lifetime of the CBA. GM's and agents try to figure out how to get around the rules every time a contract needs to be signed. Owners are required to spend at least a certain amount of money, which they themselves agreed to do. Players never sign a lower paying deal for "the good of the game", and if they so sign for less somewhere, it's not for that much less, and it probably has more to do with life outside of hockey than within it.
I still say this thing doesn't get resolved until the big market teams agree to an appropriate amount of revenue sharing. I have no idea whether or not what the NHL had in its last proposal is the appropriate amount, but they did increase it.
Also required is the players realizing that their pay is going to continue to be linked to revenue and that the piece of the pie they are going to get is something around 50%.
I am a die hard King and NHL fan for over 40 years. I don't miss it. I don't miss not getting Laker games because I have Direct TV either. There is so many things to do and at 54 years old less and less time to do it. I am enjoying the break. I hope the NHL resolves the issues and Direct TV pays up to Time Warner (I for one have no problem paying an extra $5.00 a month) - I guess what I am trying to say is were always going to run into issues based on money. That's life why would sports be any different.
I still say this thing doesn't get resolved until the big market teams agree to an appropriate amount of revenue sharing. I have no idea whether or not what the NHL had in its last proposal is the appropriate amount, but they did increase it.
Also required is the players realizing that their pay is going to continue to be linked to revenue and that the piece of the pie they are going to get is something around 50%.
It's that simple.
Oh yeah, and f Donald Fehr.
Yep
I think the NHL's cba is going to end up about the NBA's did.
I am a die hard King and NHL fan for over 40 years. I don't miss it. I don't miss not getting Laker games because I have Direct TV either. There is so many things to do and at 54 years old less and less time to do it. I am enjoying the break. I hope the NHL resolves the issues and Direct TV pays up to Time Warner (I for one have no problem paying an extra $5.00 a month) - I guess what I am trying to say is were always going to run into issues based on money. That's life why would sports be any different.
Good post...I am also 54 and I am tired of these morons.
Do I miss it? Not really...guess probably because hockey lasted two months longer for me than it usually does. However, I do want to take advantage of having a competitive Kings team out there and the possibility of taking one or more Cups in the near future...in this age of parity, every moment does count.
I think the NHL's cba is going to end up about the NBA's did.
Except that there's sooo much more money in the NBA than the NHL. tix prices, tv deals, advertisements, etc. it's not even close.
And NHL players think they're special for some reason. Some leagues pay their players 50% of HRR or less - well, the NHLPA will have none of that! they're worth more!
What idiots!! Do they not see basketball everywhere during the season?
NBA $$$$$ >>>> NHL $ - ainec (yet the NHLPA can't see that)
