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12/13' Offseason/Trades/Proposals: Leafs players and picks for a 1st. line ...

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10-08-2012, 11:08 AM
  #326
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It's no secret what my position is on the core of this team, after 4 years of not making the playoffs and 2 lottery picks, the evidence is we need to add and subtract from this group. Kessel is an elite talent, he can help someone who is a lot closer than we are, I have stated the Burke trade will yield a win if he can obtain another core piece via Kessel. Kessel was just the wrong player at this point in time for The Leafs. But he will be a valuable piece as a trade commodity for Burke to parlay into the ultimate win.

Dion is a very good piece to start with, after coming back from his calve cut he has at times been dominant, he visibly tired last year being the player that played the toughest mins on the team. If he gets more support from guys like Finn, Rielly, Percy and Reimer, Leafs nation will be happy we never let this guy go.

As for Grabo, I think I have I have said my peace on him. Mark my words, the day this guy is traded, we will be a better team, my measurement, wins and losses. Not the pretty figure 8's he does on the ice while accumulating 50 so odd meaningless points. It will not be a coincidence we are a better team when we add players that have more intangible substance.
I think the Leafs have some intangible substance in the system, Biggs and D'Amigo immediately come to mind.

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10-08-2012, 11:24 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I think the Leafs have some intangible substance in the system, Biggs and D'Amigo immediately come to mind.
With the style that is required to win and we are deviating towards. I am expecting Mike Richards type numbers from top 6 players, if we win, I don't think anyone will be unhappy with this. He had 44 points last year? But a boatload of intangibles.

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10-08-2012, 11:33 AM
  #328
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After the first pre-season game Eakins called out Naz for good play right away, and called him the teams most talented player.

This means one of 2 things:
1. Damage control, and Eakins just made a split of the tongue, and has likely already apologized to Kadri
2. Eakins thinks to get Kadri to the next level he has to motivate him differently, and if that means being more open to the media, so be it, but the key is that he is doing it to help the kid

IMO the Leafs arent stupid. If they can get Kadri to fix some holes in his game (and Im not talking about fitness or backchecking or turnovers) they know he has potential. I mean how fickle is everyone, I have seen Kadri take over NHL games (the game vs Buffallo late 2 seasons ago and this december, game against New Jersey. This kid has real NHL skill
i've never seen Kadri "take over" a game past jr.

maybe the leafs could land their 1C from Washington.

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10-08-2012, 11:51 AM
  #329
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i've never seen Kadri "take over" a game past jr.

maybe the leafs could land their 1C from Washington.
Unless he's shipped in a mighty package for Backstrom, I don't see one on the team or their prospects. Johansson might have more potential, but he has a long way to go to be considered a 1C. I think you'd be better off to keep Kadri who has incredible skill, then to move him for a 2C.

I suppose if you think he's done here, I'd move him and a 2nd for Tom Wilson and a 1st.

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10-08-2012, 11:53 AM
  #330
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Unless he's shipped in a mighty package for Backstrom, I don't see one on the team or their prospects. Johansson might have more potential, but he has a long way to go to be considered a 1C. I think you'd be better off to keep Kadri who has incredible skill, then to move him for a 2C.

I suppose if you think he's done here, I'd move him and a 2nd for Tom Wilson and a 1st.
Please slap yourself, hard.

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10-08-2012, 04:47 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
It's no secret what my position is on the core of this team, after 4 years of not making the playoffs and 2 lottery picks, the evidence is we need to add and subtract from this group. Kessel is an elite talent, he can help someone who is a lot closer than we are, I have stated the Burke trade will yield a win if he can obtain another core piece via Kessel. Kessel was just the wrong player at this point in time for The Leafs. But he will be a valuable piece as a trade commodity for Burke to parlay into the ultimate win.

Dion is a very good piece to start with, after coming back from his calve cut he has at times been dominant, he visibly tired last year being the player that played the toughest mins on the team. If he gets more support from guys like Finn, Rielly, Percy and Reimer, Leafs nation will be happy we never let this guy go.

As for Grabo, I think I have I have said my peace on him. Mark my words, the day this guy is traded, we will be a better team, my measurement, wins and losses. Not the pretty figure 8's he does on the ice while accumulating 50 so odd meaningless points. It will not be a coincidence we are a better team when we add players that have more intangible substance.
Worst judge of talent ever. Grabo is not berezin. Grabo plays more of a Canadian style than most of our forwards and has proven to be extremely utile and durable while putting up points. If the leafs need anything its 2 or 3 more guys like grabo

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10-08-2012, 05:55 PM
  #332
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Worst judge of talent ever. Grabo is not berezin. Grabo plays more of a Canadian style than most of our forwards and has proven to be extremely utile and durable while putting up points. If the leafs need anything its 2 or 3 more guys like grabo
Grabo plays a Canadian style? Were you talking about yourself in the bolded lol? He plays a european free flowing style, nothing Canadian in his style. Leafs definitely do not need another 2 or 3 5.5M, low intangible, 50 meaningless points guys on the team. We will agree to disagree.

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10-08-2012, 05:58 PM
  #333
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And why I came here to post, if Matt Petgrave continues his play this season, Burke should take a flyer and sign this kid to a contract in the offseason. Will cost us absolutely nothing, no risk.

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10-08-2012, 07:19 PM
  #334
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Grabo plays a Canadian style? Were you talking about yourself in the bolded lol? He plays a european free flowing style, nothing Canadian in his style. Leafs definitely do not need another 2 or 3 5.5M, low intangible, 50 meaningless points guys on the team. We will agree to disagree.
There are definitely Canadian centers who play a possession game very similar to grabo and gain praise as good old Canadian boys . The kinda of heart and tenacity he shows on the ice is very north American. His style has morphed incredibly since his beginnings. His style is definitely a hybrid, but his ability to be used effectively in many situations is a testiment to his NA adaptation and also his corsi is pretty good. 2 or 3 more of him would be a huge upgrade.

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10-08-2012, 07:35 PM
  #335
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also his corsi is pretty good.
His Rel. Corsi was twice as good as anybody else on the team, and top 20 in the league for forwards last year

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10-08-2012, 08:12 PM
  #336
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His Rel. Corsi was twice as good as anybody else on the team, and top 20 in the league for forwards last year
What do Corsi numbers measure when when the best player in the game Sid Crosby was only 8th in Corsi on his own team?

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10-08-2012, 08:18 PM
  #337
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There are definitely Canadian centers who play a possession game very similar to grabo and gain praise as good old Canadian boys . The kinda of heart and tenacity he shows on the ice is very north American. His style has morphed incredibly since his beginnings. His style is definitely a hybrid, but his ability to be used effectively in many situations is a testiment to his NA adaptation and also his corsi is pretty good. 2 or 3 more of him would be a huge upgrade.
We are trying to get to the point of having players with more intangibles as in Patrice Bergeron or Mike Richards, 44 pts the later scored in the regular season, even less than Corsi Grabo's 51, who would we rather have? Further the so called heart and tenacity of Grabo is a far cry from players I have witnessed wear the blue and white of the past, if this is the heart and soul type of player this team needs, then I wonder why we have been so awful the past 4 years. Mike Brown has more heart on this team than any player, doesn't mean we shouldn't upgrade his position either. Keeping Grabo and placing him on a pedestal makes no sense for a fanbase that has seen this core player part of the 25th place team last year, a frequent placing with him being one of our top 6 fwds.

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10-08-2012, 08:34 PM
  #338
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We are trying to get to the point of having players with more intangibles as in Patrice Bergeron or Mike Richards, 44 pts the later scored in the regular season, even less than Corsi Grabo's 51, who would we rather have? Further the so called heart and tenacity of Grabo is a far cry from players I have witnessed wear the blue and white of the past, if this is the heart and soul type of player this team needs, then I wonder why we have been so awful the past 4 years. Mike Brown has more heart on this team than any player, doesn't mean we shouldn't upgrade his position either. Keeping Grabo and placing him on a pedestal makes no sense for a fanbase that has seen this core player part of the 25th place team last year, a frequent placing with him being one of our top 6 fwds.
What intangibles does each of those players bring specifically that Grabo doesn't?

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10-08-2012, 08:41 PM
  #339
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What intangibles does each of those players bring specifically that Grabo doesn't?
Better leadership, better defensive play, a winning attitude, grit, intangible faceoff skill, they make team mates better, peer respect, command respect in the dressing room, will do anything to win, play bigger than their size, a track record of winning.

Besides that, they are just much better 2way players.

Do you disagree with any of this assessment?

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10-08-2012, 08:43 PM
  #340
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We are trying to get to the point of having players with more intangibles as in Patrice Bergeron or Mike Richards, 44 pts the later scored in the regular season, even less than Corsi Grabo's 51, who would we rather have? Further the so called heart and tenacity of Grabo is a far cry from players I have witnessed wear the blue and white of the past, if this is the heart and soul type of player this team needs, then I wonder why we have been so awful the past 4 years. Mike Brown has more heart on this team than any player, doesn't mean we shouldn't upgrade his position either. Keeping Grabo and placing him on a pedestal makes no sense for a fanbase that has seen this core player part of the 25th place team last year, a frequent placing with him being one of our top 6 fwds.
Yes hang all the faults of the te am on the one bright point we have. Man leafs fans can be brutal. Our terrible seasons couldnt have anything to do with a coach that didn't like to coach and ran all around poor systems, a goalie coach that ruined at least one promising goalie and set us back a couple seasons, a GM and a coach on separate pages, no number one C, and in the throws of a youth led rebuild that means we should have no business making the playoffs in a competitive league for a few years. So yeah,one of our most skilled and reliable player is the problem, just because his play some times shows his roots as a European... Kinda prejudiced sounding...

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10-08-2012, 08:44 PM
  #341
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Better leadership, better defensive play, a winning attitude, grit, intangible faceoff skill, they make team mates better, peer respect, command respect in the dressing room, will do anything to win, play bigger than their size, a track record of winning.

Besides that, they are just much better 2way players.

Do you disagree with any of this assessment?
Not all if it, but most of it.

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10-08-2012, 08:46 PM
  #342
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Yes hang all the faults of the te am on the one bright point we have. Man leafs fans can be brutal. Our terrible seasons couldnt have anything to do with a coach that didn't like to coach and ran all around poor systems, a goalie coach that ruined at least one promising goalie and set us back a couple seasons, a GM and a coach on separate pages, no number one C, and in the throws of a youth led rebuild that means we should have no business making the playoffs in a competitive league for a few years. So yeah,one of our most skilled and reliable player is the problem, just because his play some times shows his roots as a European... Kinda prejudiced sounding...
The opposite of your statement is let's just keep making excuses for our players. This is worse IMO, I'd rather be in my world, than to keep making excuses for the Grabo's in year 5, 6, 7, ect... and keep being mediocre in team personnel, missing the playoffs season after season.

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10-08-2012, 08:50 PM
  #343
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Not all if it, but most of it.
Please give me some tangible evidence on why not all of it, or what exactly Grabo does better than Mike Richards or Patrice Bergeron?

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10-08-2012, 09:03 PM
  #344
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With our luck, we'll be drafting 30th
So we are going to win the cup then?

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10-08-2012, 09:06 PM
  #345
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The opposite of your statement is let's just keep making excuses for our players. This is worse IMO, I'd rather be in my world, than to keep making excuses for the Grabo's in year 5, 6, 7, ect... and keep being mediocre in team personnel, missing the playoffs season after season.
There is no excuses necessary for grabo, he's a great 2nd line C on an incomplete team, a central piece to an unfinished puzzle. I really don't see why you dislike him so much and how you could possibly justify it. Is he a Bergeron or a Richards? In some ways he is, in some ways he falls short, in some ways he might be or can be better. Does Grabo play with the same talent surrounding him as Richards our bergeron? Not at all, yet still he puts up close numbers, a good corsi, and is comparable. The problem is that we don't have bergeron or Richards and we probably never will, but we do have the next best thing, and you wanna Chase him outta town. Makes no sense at all. Grabo is one if the five or so roster players that cannot be blamed for our seasons and should be the core going forward.

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10-08-2012, 09:12 PM
  #346
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Please give me some tangible evidence on why not all of it, or what exactly Grabo does better than Mike Richards or Patrice Bergeron?
Of the intangibles you listed, only one can really use tangible stats to say if a player is better than the other or not and that is faceoff percentage. Grabo was 51.5% last year while Richards was 50.5%. Bergeron was much higher at near 60%, he is one of the best faceoff guys in the league. I wish we had someone of his faceoff capabilities in our top 6 but we don't, we do however have some of that capability on our team.

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10-08-2012, 09:15 PM
  #347
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There is no excuses necessary for grabo, he's a great 2nd line C on an incomplete team, a central piece to an unfinished puzzle. I really don't see why you dislike him so much and how you could possibly justify it. Is he a Bergeron or a Richards? In some ways he is, in some ways he falls short, in some ways he might be or can be better. The problem is that we don't have bergeron or Richards and we probably never will, but we do have the next best thing, and you wanna Chase him outta town. Makes no sense at all. Grabo is one if the five or so roster players that cannot be blamed for our seasons and should be the core going forward.
I disagree with everything in your post, I read it twice just to try to find something I can agree on, and the bolded is as close as I could agree with. Even that, this is a stretch. His best points totals are significantly less than Richard's or Bergeron's career years. Furthermore more I don't understand the Grabo is the best this team is gonna get, that god Fletcher didn't think this way when he acquired Sundin and Gilmour. If Grabo is the best we are going to get, we may as well pack up are bags, and start watch the Marlies for some real winning hockey.

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10-08-2012, 09:19 PM
  #348
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Of the intangibles you listed, only one can really use tangible stats to say if a player is better than the other or not and that is faceoff percentage. Grabo was 51.5% last year while Richards was 50.5%. Bergeron was much higher at near 60%, he is one of the best faceoff guys in the league. I wish we had someone of his faceoff capabilities in our top 6 but we don't, we do however have some of that capability on our team.
Winning faceoffs is a tangible and intangible stat. Faceoffs are part of the game some ignore, I also listed a whole list off the top of my head that you somehow missed, you don't think Bergeron or Richards on the Leafs would be a better influence in the dressing room than grabo? You don't think being winners, and more so proving to be key players in cup run supercede what grabo has to offer? Be realistic, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it is.

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10-08-2012, 09:23 PM
  #349
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Winning faceoffs is a tangible and intangible stat. Faceoffs are part of the game some ignore, I also listed a whole list off the top of my head that you somehow missed, you don't think Bergeron or Richards on the Leafs would be a better influence in the dressing room than grabo? You don't think being winners, and more so proving to be key players in cup run supercede what grabo has to offer? Be realistic, you know it, I know it, everyone knows they would.
You asked for tangible stats showing Grabo is better than them. I can't come across tangible stats for things like peer respect or command in the dressing room. I said faceoff percentage was the only one with tangible stuff to back it up so that is why it is the only thing I replied to, I mentioned that in my post, I guess you missed it.

The only other one you could look at for possible tangible evidence is track record of winning. No Grabo doesn't beat them in that but he also hasn't been on as good of teams.

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10-08-2012, 09:25 PM
  #350
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Better leadership, better defensive play, a winning attitude, grit, intangible faceoff skill, they make team mates better, peer respect, command respect in the dressing room, will do anything to win, play bigger than their size, a track record of winning.

Besides that, they are just much better 2way players.

Do you disagree with any of this assessment?
Please explain.

I for one think Grabo brings many of those things, except the bolded, don't know what that means so I can't comment on that.

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