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10-08-2012, 09:28 PM
  #351
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I disagree with everything in your post, I read it twice just to try to find something I can agree on, and the bolded is as close as I could agree with. Even that, this is a stretch. His best points totals are significantly less than Richard's or Bergeron's career years. Furthermore more I don't understand the Grabo is the best this team is gonna get, that god Fletcher didn't think this way when he acquired Sundin and Gilmour. If Grabo is the best we are going to get, we may as well pack up are bags, and start watch the Marlies for some real winning hockey.
Dude you gotta stop living in the past, clarks and gilmores are a rare commodity. We can't just wait for one to magically appear and tell all the decent players we have no to take a hike because they aren't a Clarke or a Gilmore. First if all, its debatable whether those two coughs even make that big of an impact in today's game. Second of all nobody says Grabo is or ever will be one of those two, he's a second line center not a top 5 drafted elite caliber first liner,not sure what you expect of him. 3rd I'm not sure how any sane person could disagree that bergeron and Richards play with much higher caliber player, better D, better goal tending and better coaching, than Grabo, than compare the threes stats and be genuinely impressed with Grabo and happy he fell into our laps for some schmuck and a 2nd

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10-08-2012, 09:30 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
You asked for tangible stats showing Grabo is better than them. I can't come across tangible stats for things like peer respect or command in the dressing room. I said faceoff percentage was the only one with tangible stuff to back it up so that is why it is the only thing I replied to, I mentioned that in my post, I guess you missed it.

The only other one you could look at for possible tangible evidence is track record of winning. No Grabo doesn't beat them in that but he also hasn't been on as good of teams.
That's because no one can make a case Grabo is in the same league as these 2 Stanley Cup winning top 6 Center's. That's my point, Grabo as a top 6 C can't even help this team out of a lottery team position, how is he going to compare to 2 of the best 2 way players that bring the intangible these guys bring. No one or GM would say Grabo is close to these 2, and that's where we got to get to. Not be sentimental and delude ourselves into believing he's part of the solution when clearly the evidence points to changes are needed in the core.

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10-08-2012, 09:36 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
That's because no one can make a case Grabo is in the same league as these 2 Stanley Cup winning top 6 Center's. That's my point, Grabo as a top 6 C can't even help this team out of a lottery team position, how is he going to compare to 2 of the best 2 way players that bring the intangible these guys bring. No one or GM would say Grabo is close to these 2, and that's where we got to get to. Not be sentimental and delude ourselves into believing he's part of the solution when clearly the evidence points to changes are needed in the core.
If we can't make a case that Grabo isn't in the same league as these 2 players then how can we make a case that they are better players? You mention the obvious Stanley Cup ring, were either of these players the MVP of the playoffs? Nope. Now we are back to square one of not being able to prove their intangibles are better than Grabo's.

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10-08-2012, 09:37 PM
  #354
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Dude you gotta stop living in the past, clarks and gilmores are a rare commodity. We can't just wait for one to magically appear and tell all the decent players we have no to take a hike because they aren't a Clarke or a Gilmore. First if all, its debatable whether those two coughs even make that big of an impact in today's game. Second of all nobody says Grabo is or ever will be one of those two, he's a second line center not a top 5 drafted elite caliber first liner,not sure what you expect of him. 3rd I'm not sure how any sane person could disagree that bergeron and Richards play with much higher caliber player, better D, better goal tending and better coaching, than Grabo, than compare the threes stats and be genuinely impressed with Grabo and happy he fell into our laps for some schmuck and a 2nd
BTW It's Gilmour not Gilmore, Dougie is a Leafs great, atleat give him the respect by spelling his name correctly.

I just hope the rest of our fanbase doesn't take to mediocrity as easily as you do. Maybe you are too young to remember, and no one is living in the past, but having experience of what truly great players are to having Grabo as the best #2C of our time does have it's advantages. Maybe Grabo is all you know, for this I feel sorry for you he is your context of what a good C is.

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10-08-2012, 09:42 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
If we can't make a case that Grabo isn't in the same league as these 2 players then how can we make a case that they are better players? You mention the obvious Stanley Cup ring, were either of these players the MVP of the playoffs? Nope. Now we are back to square one of not being able to prove their intangibles are better than Grabo's.
Then which 2 C's would you rather have if you had a choice to build a team?

Grabo
Richards
Bergeron

Let's clear this up once and for all, if you answer the way a knowledgable hockey fan would, then we are in agreement. Grabo is not in the same league as those 2.

1. Both have superior offensive seasons than Grabo
2. One is a Selke winner
3. Both Gold medal winners in multiple levels
4. Stanley cup winners
5 Captain and former captain of nhl teams

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10-08-2012, 09:49 PM
  #356
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Grabo's accomplishements Grant:

Well he is a 58 pt guy on his best team finish 21st.
51 pt season on a 25th team season.

That's the best I can come up with.

No international awards or medals. Not sure how you can compare Grabo to Richards and Bergeron.

3rd or 4th Alternatate captain on the team when Komi and Army went down, on a team without leadership.

Not much winning has followed Grabo around, I like having a team full of winners, no coincidence winning follows good players around and vice versa.

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10-08-2012, 09:51 PM
  #357
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That's because no one can make a case Grabo is in the same league as these 2 Stanley Cup winning top 6 Center's. That's my point, Grabo as a top 6 C can't even help this team out of a lottery team position, how is he going to compare to 2 of the best 2 way players that bring the intangible these guys bring. No one or GM would say Grabo is close to these 2, and that's where we got to get to. Not be sentimental and delude ourselves into believing he's part of the solution when clearly the evidence points to changes are needed in the core.
What? Your the one who compared them! Haha dude your loopy.
The bottom line is bergeron is not available, Richards is not available. Krijci is not available. Jordan staal is not available, who else is an nhl second line C that is potentially available and is significantly better then Grabo? Not many. You may want to live in your world of no excuses, but I prefer to live in the world of the realistic. Grabo is realistically one of the top (but not the top) 2nd line Cs in the game,
Does what he needs to and competes and puts up good numbers on a subpar team. He's a winner just waiting for the team to rise to his level of compete and skill, and then it will be fair to compare him to those two, and I think he will stack up rather well. And based on his contract BB feels that way too...but then again that probably means nothing to you since you appear to have some odd Fletcher fetish.

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10-08-2012, 09:58 PM
  #358
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What? Your the one who compared them! Haha dude your loopy.
The bottom line is bergeron is not available, Richards is not available. Krijci is not available. Jordan staal is not available, who else is an nhl second line C that is potentially available and is significantly better then Grabo? Not many. You may want to live in your world of no excuses, but I prefer to live in the world of the realistic. Grabo is realistically one of the top (but not the top) 2nd line Cs in the game,
Does what he needs to and competes and puts up good numbers on a subpar team. He's a winner just waiting for the team to rise to his level of compete and skill, and then it will be fair to compare him to those two, and I think he will stack up rather well. And based on his contract BB feels that way too...but then again that probably means nothing to you since you appear to have some odd Fletcher fetish.
Short memory, wasn't Richards just traded last year? Meaning he was available. You are too willing to make excuses for players and scenarios. Seriously are you one of those apathetic fans, we are not going to get good players, let's just not do anything and stick with the status quo.

The status quo got us Rielly last year, maybe this is your plan. Keeping mediocre overrated players so we draft high?

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10-08-2012, 10:02 PM
  #359
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BTW It's Gilmour not Gilmore, Dougie is a Leafs great, atleat give him the respect by spelling his name correctly.

I just hope the rest of our fanbase doesn't take to mediocrity as easily as you do. Maybe you are too young to remember, and no one is living in the past, but having experience of what truly great players are to having Grabo as the best #2C of our time does have it's advantages. Maybe Grabo is all you know, for this I feel sorry for you he is your context of what a good C is.
Thanks mom. Its called auto correct, and no I remember that time very well and I also don't remember winning much more then a conference final once. Maybe your too old and can't remember the "good old" days so well anymore. They weren't that great. But regardless,that's the past, and unless you know how to resurrect some leaf classics hockey careers, we have to stop comparing our players to glamorized memories of leafs allstars and let them develop and play their game and appreciate them for the skill and ability they show and Grabo most definitely shows

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10-08-2012, 10:03 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
That's because no one can make a case Grabo is in the same league as these 2 Stanley Cup winning top 6 Center's. That's my point, Grabo as a top 6 C can't even help this team out of a lottery team position, how is he going to compare to 2 of the best 2 way players that bring the intangible these guys bring. No one or GM would say Grabo is close to these 2, and that's where we got to get to. Not be sentimental and delude ourselves into believing he's part of the solution when clearly the evidence points to changes are needed in the core.
Last time I checked they all played in the same league. ..

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10-08-2012, 10:06 PM
  #361
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Thanks mom. Its called auto correct, and no I remember that time very well and I also don't remember winning much more then a conference final once. Maybe your too old and can't remember the "good old" days so well anymore. They weren't that great. But regardless,that's the past, and unless you know how to resurrect some leaf classics hockey careers, we have to stop comparing our players to glamorized memories of leafs allstars and let them develop and play their game and appreciate them for the skill and ability they show and Grabo most definitely shows
I must have missed it, but we were comparing Grabo with the last 2 No. 2 C's on cup winners. Not Gilmour or Clark.

Just so that you remember you mentioned Grabo's huge heart, I mentioned present player Brown had the biggest one on the leafs team, does that mean he is irreplacable also?

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10-08-2012, 10:09 PM
  #362
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Last time I checked they all played in the same league. ..
You already said you no one is comparing Grabo to Bergy and Richie. So I guess we can agree Grabo is not in the same league as these 2. We are done, thanks for the chat. Mission accomplished.

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10-08-2012, 10:14 PM
  #363
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I still consider Richards a #1 center, only a handful of teams in the league where he isn't one. Richards is better than Grabo in my opinion and out of his league. Bergeron I still consider a #2 guy and I would choose him over Grabo as well given the choice. However the gap separating Bergreon from Grabo isn't nearly as big as Grabo and Richards in my opinion. I would say Richards is out of Bergeron's league too. Also it's hard for Grabo to win gold medals at multiple levels and Stanley Cups when he plays on vastly inferior teams.

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10-08-2012, 10:26 PM
  #364
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I still consider Richards a #1 center, only a handful of teams in the league where he isn't one. Richards is better than Grabo in my opinion and out of his league. Bergeron I still consider a #2 guy and I would choose him over Grabo as well given the choice. However the gap separating Bergreon from Grabo isn't nearly as big as Grabo and Richards in my opinion. I would say Richards is out of Bergeron's league too. Also it's hard for Grabo to win gold medals at multiple levels and Stanley Cups when he plays on vastly inferior teams.
This is a good honest answer, and I respect you for it.

Grabo was not good enough to make the International teams Bergeron and Richards played for in the Olympics and National Juniors. If he had we may not have won gold both times. This is what I am saying, the other 2 are on a different level than him, can you say Grabo would have made any of those teams? Or the Stanley Cup teams? If he had and you took Bergy and Richie our of the lineup I doubt Boston and LA win the cup.

I'm a believer in success leaves clues, ever notice how winning follows the good players around? Conversely losing follows the mediocre players's around.

If I want to win, I would surround myself with winners, that's the name of the game. Right now I don't see any evidence Grabo is a winner, that's another strike against him. Not a huge difference maker. The best trade in NHL history Leafs acquiring a winner in Gilmour for essentially 5 losers and we know what happened after that trade. That's what having a culture of winning can do. Draft, trade for winners. It's no secret, Burke signed Neidermayer, a renouned winner and Anaheim did just that in 06. We are not reinventing the wheel here.

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10-08-2012, 10:43 PM
  #365
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This is a good honest answer, and I respect you for it.

Grabo was not good enough to make the International teams Bergeron and Richards played for in the Olympics and National Juniors. If he had we may not have won gold both times. This is what I am saying, the other 2 are on a different level than him, can you say Grabo would have made any of those teams? Or the Stanley Cup teams? If he had and you took Bergy and Richie our of the lineup I doubt Boston and LA win the cup.

I'm a believer in success leaves clues, ever notice how winning follows the good players around? Conversely losing follows the mediocre players's around.

If I want to win, I would surround myself with winners, that's the name of the game. Right now I don't see any evidence Grabo is a winner, that's another strike against him. Not a huge difference maker. The best trade in NHL history Leafs acquiring a winner in Gilmour for essentially 5 losers and we know what happened after that trade. That's what having a culture of winning can do. Draft, trade for winners. It's no secret, Burke signed Neidermayer, a renouned winner and Anaheim did just that in 06. We are not reinventing the wheel here.
National juniors, no, I don't think Grabo would have made those teams, he is more of a late bloomer, Richards and Bergeron have been at this level for pretty much their entire careers while it is only in the last few years Grabo has found his game.

International teams it's even debatable if Bergeron should have made the team. If I remember correctly (and I'm not sure if I do) I believe their was some controversy with Bergeron making the team since there were other great players who didn't make it (Spezza comes to mind). Bergeron I think was more of a utility player (his faceoff percentage which was brought up earlier). Grabo no wouldn't make team Canada now but there are many other players who wouldn't make it either. To make it you basically need to have a great camp or fill a role.

Replacing Richards or Bergeron with Grabo and asking if they win a cup still is too hard to answer because we never know. I still think they do personally, both teams were dominant in their playoff runs, but we will honestly never know the answer. For this I will use Kaberle as an example. He got some points during the playoff run but for the most part was invisible and did very little. Does Boston wish that they never traded for him since we got Colborne + Liles (who is better than Kaberle at this point) from that package? Of course they still make that trade because they won the cup. Replacing him with someone else and you simply don't know if you still win it.

Winning does tend to follow good players but it isn't necessarily always the case. There will always be exceptions (such as Nash who has 4 playoff games, all loses, in his career of 674 NHL games) and Grabo so far in my opinion is one of them.

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10-08-2012, 10:50 PM
  #366
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This is a good honest answer, and I respect you for it.

Grabo was not good enough to make the International teams Bergeron and Richards played for in the Olympics and National Juniors. If he had we may not have won gold both times. This is what I am saying, the other 2 are on a different level than him, can you say Grabo would have made any of those teams? Or the Stanley Cup teams? If he had and you took Bergy and Richie our of the lineup I doubt Boston and LA win the cup.

I'm a believer in success leaves clues, ever notice how winning follows the good players around? Conversely losing follows the mediocre players's around.

If I want to win, I would surround myself with winners, that's the name of the game. Right now I don't see any evidence Grabo is a winner, that's another strike against him. Not a huge difference maker. The best trade in NHL history Leafs acquiring a winner in Gilmour for essentially 5 losers and we know what happened after that trade. That's what having a culture of winning can do. Draft, trade for winners. It's no secret, Burke signed Neidermayer, a renouned winner and Anaheim did just that in 06. We are not reinventing the wheel here.
Which national team? Belarus isn't gonna win regardless, that's probably why Grabo has no national exposure. Nobody has said Grabo was better than those2,and the original comparison Came out of your mouth, the issue is is that those are 2 good players on good teams, there are 28 other teams. You do the math and figure out why bb believes that Grabo is the best 2nd line C he can get and signed him on a contract worthy of a top 2C. Its really simple. Because Grabo is a very good 2C, he does what he is supposed to do well, he wants to play here. And bb has moved on to address more pressing needs than finding a slight improvement at 2C when we utterly lack so many other things... Sounds way more reasonable.

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10-08-2012, 10:54 PM
  #367
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National juniors, no, I don't think Grabo would have made those teams, he is more of a late bloomer, Richards and Bergeron have been at this level for pretty much their entire careers while it is only in the last few years Grabo has found his game.

International teams it's even debatable if Bergeron should have made the team. If I remember correctly (and I'm not sure if I do) I believe their was some controversy with Bergeron making the team since there were other great players who didn't make it (Spezza comes to mind). Bergeron I think was more of a utility player (his faceoff percentage which was brought up earlier). Grabo no wouldn't make team Canada now but there are many other players who wouldn't make it either. To make it you basically need to have a great camp or fill a role.

Replacing Richards or Bergeron with Grabo and asking if they win a cup still is too hard to answer because we never know. I still think they do personally, both teams were dominant in their playoff runs, but we will honestly never know the answer. For this I will use Kaberle as an example. He got some points during the playoff run but for the most part was invisible and did very little. Does Boston wish that they never traded for him since we got Colborne + Liles (who is better than Kaberle at this point) from that package? Of course they still make that trade because they won the cup. Replacing him with someone else and you simply don't know if you still win it.

Winning does tend to follow good players but it isn't necessarily always the case. There will always be exceptions (such as Nash who has 4 playoff games, all loses, in his career of 674 NHL games) and Grabo so far in my opinion is one of them.
Put Grabo on Boston and who knows what happens, but for how good Boston was Grabo sure liked playing them. He played better against them than bergeron played against us.

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10-08-2012, 10:55 PM
  #368
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Grabo is not as good as Richards or Bergeron, but that shouldn't really say anything about Grabo, in the same way that Richards and Bergeron are no where near as good as Crosby but that doesn't say anything about them.

To blame him for any of the Leafs' woes is as ridiculous as blaming Phil Kessel. He works his ass off every single game, does in fact have the respect of his peers, including his coaches and most Toronto fans, and refuses to say die. No one can know what he's like in the dressing room, but he leads by example, and was the only cog of a previously extremely successful KGM line that actually continued his offensive production this past season. He has no control over who his teammates are, the fact that he is not part of a line-up that can win a Stanley Cup has no bearing on who he is as a player. He has no control over what country he's from, the fact that Belarus isn't Canada when it comes to International hockey has no bearing on who he is as a player.





This is not the player we should be worried about.

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10-08-2012, 10:57 PM
  #369
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National juniors, no, I don't think Grabo would have made those teams, he is more of a late bloomer, Richards and Bergeron have been at this level for pretty much their entire careers while it is only in the last few years Grabo has found his game.

International teams it's even debatable if Bergeron should have made the team. If I remember correctly (and I'm not sure if I do) I believe their was some controversy with Bergeron making the team since there were other great players who didn't make it (Spezza comes to mind). Bergeron I think was more of a utility player (his faceoff percentage which was brought up earlier). Grabo no wouldn't make team Canada now but there are many other players who wouldn't make it either. To make it you basically need to have a great camp or fill a role.

Replacing Richards or Bergeron with Grabo and asking if they win a cup still is too hard to answer because we never know. I still think they do personally, both teams were dominant in their playoff runs, but we will honestly never know the answer. For this I will use Kaberle as an example. He got some points during the playoff run but for the most part was invisible and did very little. Does Boston wish that they never traded for him since we got Colborne + Liles (who is better than Kaberle at this point) from that package? Of course they still make that trade because they won the cup. Replacing him with someone else and you simply don't know if you still win it.

Winning does tend to follow good players but it isn't necessarily always the case. There will always be exceptions (such as Nash who has 4 playoff games, all loses, in his career of 674 NHL games) and Grabo so far in my opinion is one of them.
Kaberle was awful in the top 4, and it was only when Julien moved him to the bottom pairing with Mcquade that Boston came back to beat Montreal and then win the cup. This is a key distinction. Grabo does not have the same games as Richards and Bergeron, in my opinion, Boston and LA would have been up against it had they lost those 2 players. Definitely the Vancouver series the Canucks would have won. Alot of people forget Bergeron was the team's second leading scorer to Krejci with 20 pts in the playoffs, this and being the team's best defensive fwd. Richards had 15 pts in his playoff run and has always been a strong playoff performer since coming 1 game from winning the cup with the Flyers. On the otherhand Grabo dissapeared the last couple of months of last season when the games got tougher, he has no playoff history, to me his play suffers when the games get more important. He doesn't have much in reserves to elevate his game. Perhaps this is more to do because he is always trying, there is no level higher for him to push for when games get more intense. This has been a common theme for him. These are all things that point to LA and Boston if they lost Bergy and Richards and replaced them with Grabo, their chances of winning the cup would have been negatively affected.


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10-08-2012, 10:58 PM
  #370
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So we are going to win the cup then?
I said that as part of a discussion about draft lottery results should we lose the entire season to lockout.

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10-08-2012, 11:05 PM
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Put Grabo on Boston and who knows what happens, but for how good Boston was Grabo sure liked playing them. He played better against them than bergeron played against us.
One is a fact and a sure thing, but funny how the Grabo fans are all about what if's and excuses. As it's the team's fault, Kule's fault, Mac's fault, or Wilson's fault. Funny it's always someone else other than Grabo.

Nope, Boston and LA would have been severely downgraded had they lost Bergy/Richie for a one dimensional player like Grabo.

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10-08-2012, 11:11 PM
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One is a fact and a sure thing, but funny how the Grabo fans are all about what if's and excuses. As it's the team's fault, Kule's fault, Mac's fault, or Wilson's fault. Funny it's always someone else other than Grabo.

Nope, Boston and LA would have been severely downgraded had they lost Bergy/Richie for a one dimensional player like Grabo.
Which one of the bolded did their job as well as Grabo did last year?

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10-08-2012, 11:14 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
Grabo is not as good as Richards or Bergeron, but that shouldn't really say anything about Grabo, in the same way that Richards and Bergeron are no where near as good as Crosby but that doesn't say anything about them.

To blame him for any of the Leafs' woes is as ridiculous as blaming Phil Kessel. He works his ass off every single game, does in fact have the respect of his peers, including his coaches and most Toronto fans, and refuses to say die. No one can know what he's like in the dressing room, but he leads by example, and was the only cog of a previously extremely successful KGM line that actually continued his offensive production this past season. He has no control over who his teammates are, the fact that he is not part of a line-up that can win a Stanley Cup has no bearing on who he is as a player. He has no control over what country he's from, the fact that Belarus isn't Canada when it comes to International hockey has no bearing on who he is as a player.





This is not the player we should be worried about.
I would be more impressed if you had the video of his bar room fight in Whistler, when Burke publically called him stupid or something to that effect.

Really I prefer players dishing out the hits, rather than the one's on the receiving end. That however was a memorable game. Sad that it is still a highlight for this sad mediocre era.

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10-08-2012, 11:20 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
Which one of the bolded did their job as well as Grabo did last year?
What's your point, who did a better job than Komi logic? Franson? You mean who was less mediocre than Grabo was. Considering one is getting paid 5.5M this year, he should be better than Kessel and Lupul this year nevermind Mac or Kule.

Mac scored 1 goal less than the year before playing 9 games less. He had a pretty good season. +3 also.

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10-08-2012, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
What's your point, who did a better job than Komi logic? Franson? You mean who was less mediocre than Grabo was. Considering one is getting paid 5.5M this year, he should be better than Kessel and Lupul this year nevermind Mac or Kule.

Mac scored 1 goal less than the year before playing 9 games less. He had a pretty good season. +3 also.
Kessel's first season under his current contract he was signed at 9.5% of the salary cap.

Lupul's first season under his current contract he was signed at 7.5% of the salary cap.

Grabo (assuming 70.2m) will be 7.8% of the salary cap.

Grabo had 2 consecutive better seasons than Lupul did when he was signed for his current amount.

Just because Grabo is our highest paid forward I'm not expecting the most out of him. Montreal isn't expecting Gomez to be their best forward. Edmonton isn't expecting Horcoff to be their best forward.

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