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Old
10-08-2012, 01:11 AM
  #151
Homesick
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[QUOTE=supert;54820717][QUOTE=monkeywrench;54809789]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Let's look at 2011-12. Not the previous seasons because Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.

Turris had 29 points in 49 games for the Sens. Good for a 0.592 points per game.

Gagner had 47 points in 75 games. Good for 0.627 points per game.

Negligible difference offensively. Turris put up these numbers while being the Senators most important defensive forwardand playing shutdown against the likes of Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux and Malkin. If he only had offense to focus on, he could have easily scored more than Gagner. Turris has no 11 points in 2 games to fall back on either, which quite inflated Gagner's numbers above where they should be.


Take out the fluke 11 points in 2 games and Gagner goes down to 36 points in 73 games, less than 0.50 ppg.
I do not know why people always discount Gagner 8 point game . He put up the points ,he earn them playing a very good team . While you are at it why not discount a goalie who post back to back shutouts or a player that scores 4 goals in a game . Also how the hell do you call Turris a late bloomer and yet you will not say the same about Gagner when his dad never broke out until his mid 20s . I would bet anything at the end of their careers Gagner is consider the better player . I do not post much in the way i think a player will do , but i bet the next full season Gagner plays he is close to 60 points . The kid always works hard and has improved every year in some way . I think he would be putting up more points now if he did not work on his weakness every year and only focus on Offence only
I am an Oiler fan that would like a big second line centre only because we have a small top 6 . Gager has done fine for his age ,some player do not even get a call up to the NHL at his age .
Also by the sound of it you think Turris is some kind of stud by what he did in Ottawa . Brule ring any bells . He did a good job in Edmonton for a year then went back to his same old ways . Lot of player take off when they are traded only to come back down
Thats a load of ****. If he was the Sens most important "shut down" forward he would of played more than 6 seconds on the PK a game

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Old
10-08-2012, 03:01 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by untouchable21 View Post
You lose all credibility with that statement alone and I am no Senators fan or a fan of Turris for that matter.

Turris absolutely trumps Omark (bust) and from what I've seen, MPS who has also accomplished nothing, is about where Turris was one year ago. Sure he has the higher points total in a single season, but Turris' 29 pts in 49 games played last year puts that argument to rest.

Also worth mentioning is that Turris toiled in a stifling Coyotes defensive system where as MPS played for the more free wheeling style the Oilers deploy.
So 29 points in 49 games proves what exactly? That he played on a team that was 4th in goals for but he still couldn't break 30 points.

Akim Aliu had 3 points in 2 games! That must mean he is better than every player aside from Crosby right?

Even Belanger managed 40 points in that "Stifling defensive system". Phoenix was 14th in goals for that year, right behind Pittsburgh.

Paajarvi as a rookie was better than Turris in any year he has played. Try eating 3rd/4th line minutes with nearly all defensive zone starts and see how many points you put up. Everyone knows about Edmonton's goaltending and D issues. Yet still Ottawa was worse off for Goals against.

I would still rather have Paajarvi or Gagner over Turris. Has Paajarvi demanded a trade because of his reduced ice time? Has Gagner ever asked to be traded to a contending team instead of grinding through 5 bad years? Turris is just whiny and self entitled. I hope Zibanejad takes every minute he can from that kid.

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10-08-2012, 06:48 AM
  #153
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I'd rather the Oilers not make this trade.

For all the talk about Gagner not being a 60 pt forward, he seems to be a very important guy on the team. He's nearly a grizzled vet at age 23. Let him continue playing in Edmonton. It's not like the Oilers appear to have anyone that will push him down the depth chart.

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Old
10-08-2012, 07:23 AM
  #154
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I have on concern and it will be a concern you either get or don't

Runblad was draft by the blues, traded to the sens and now traded to the dogs--so in four years in has been in three organizations. He has spent just about a year in each organization before being traded, I find that odd

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Old
10-08-2012, 09:57 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
So 29 points in 49 games proves what exactly? That he played on a team that was 4th in goals for but he still couldn't break 30 points.

Akim Aliu had 3 points in 2 games! That must mean he is better than every player aside from Crosby right?

Even Belanger managed 40 points in that "Stifling defensive system". Phoenix was 14th in goals for that year, right behind Pittsburgh.

Paajarvi as a rookie was better than Turris in any year he has played. Try eating 3rd/4th line minutes with nearly all defensive zone starts and see how many points you put up. Everyone knows about Edmonton's goaltending and D issues. Yet still Ottawa was worse off for Goals against.

I would still rather have Paajarvi or Gagner over Turris. Has Paajarvi demanded a trade because of his reduced ice time? Has Gagner ever asked to be traded to a contending team instead of grinding through 5 bad years? Turris is just whiny and self entitled. I hope Zibanejad takes every minute he can from that kid.


Here is a perfect example of someone who knows nothing about the Senators. You have looked at stats and made judgements.

- 29 games is a much better indication to a team than 3. The Sens brass know a hell of alot more than you.

"Akim Aliu had 3 points in 2 games! That must mean he is better than every player aside from Crosby right?" ---This comment makes you look like a fool of fools.

- Paajarvi can't stick on one of the worst teams in the league and Turris sticks as second line center on a playoff team. You can't even read the stats page properly! How is 34pts in 80 games better than 29 pts in 49 games?

- Try to learn something about Ottawa's style of play. Why do you think they scored so many goals? It is alot easier for an NHL team to cut down on their GA, if you don't try to score. Sens try to score.

- According to you, if you demand a trade, your a ****** hockey player.

- Zibanejad is not in a position to take a spot fom Turris. They are not in competition. Again you are looking at the stats page (position) to get information for your arguement.


Last edited by TMI: 10-08-2012 at 11:14 AM.
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Old
10-09-2012, 04:52 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
Here is a perfect example of someone who knows nothing about the Senators. You have looked at stats and made judgements.

- 29 games is a much better indication to a team than 3. The Sens brass know a hell of alot more than you.

"Akim Aliu had 3 points in 2 games! That must mean he is better than every player aside from Crosby right?" ---This comment makes you look like a fool of fools.

- Paajarvi can't stick on one of the worst teams in the league and Turris sticks as second line center on a playoff team. You can't even read the stats page properly! How is 34pts in 80 games better than 29 pts in 49 games?

- Try to learn something about Ottawa's style of play. Why do you think they scored so many goals? It is alot easier for an NHL team to cut down on their GA, if you don't try to score. Sens try to score.

- According to you, if you demand a trade, your a ****** hockey player.

- Zibanejad is not in a position to take a spot fom Turris. They are not in competition. Again you are looking at the stats page (position) to get information for your arguement.
I really don`t see how you proved anything. It is hilarious when people have to resort to picking apart my arguments instead of making a case themselves.

Turris stuck as your 2nd line center because that was a positional need at the time. Hence trading for him....

Paajarvi lost his spot because Smyth came back. And also because the coach managed his time poorly. Why waste 3rd/4th line minutes on him when he could develop with a top 6 role on the Barons. Which he absolutely did.

It is alot easier for an NHL team to cut down on their GA, if you don't try to score. Sens try to score.
???? what????

No....the idea is to score while preventing them from scoring on you...

Look at Detroit's puck possession style. It is both defensive and offensive.

And no, if you demand a trade because you are impatient and haven't proven anything then you are just an ass. That is what he did.

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Old
10-09-2012, 07:36 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
I have on concern and it will be a concern you either get or don't

Runblad was draft by the blues, traded to the sens and now traded to the dogs--so in four years in has been in three organizations. He has spent just about a year in each organization before being traded, I find that odd
...or maybe the other way around. Teams wanted him! Tarasenko had the Russian factor and the Sens weren't going to deal with that. The 'Yotes feel that Rundblad is in their long term plans.

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Old
10-09-2012, 12:20 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I really don`t see how you proved anything. It is hilarious when people have to resort to picking apart my arguments instead of making a case themselves.

Turris stuck as your 2nd line center because that was a positional need at the time. Hence trading for him....

Paajarvi lost his spot because Smyth came back. And also because the coach managed his time poorly. Why waste 3rd/4th line minutes on him when he could develop with a top 6 role on the Barons. Which he absolutely did.

It is alot easier for an NHL team to cut down on their GA, if you don't try to score. Sens try to score.
???? what????

No....the idea is to score while preventing them from scoring on you...

Look at Detroit's puck possession style. It is both defensive and offensive.

And no, if you demand a trade because you are impatient and haven't proven anything then you are just an ass. That is what he did.

I made 5 points in my last post and you have reponded to 2 of them. The second of which is your opinion! I will not take you seriously if you pick and choose parts of my post. You didn't answer the questions or respond to my comments.

You say Turris stuck at 2nd line center because it was a team need??? What?
They could have gotten you to be the second line center for much cheaper. Why did they do that?

So Paajarvi lost his spot because Smith came back. It had nothing to do with 8pts in 41 games? BS!

Teams cannot play both offensive and defensive style. You can play a balanced system, but many teams play a defensive style which affects their offense and vice versa. Oiler fans above anyone else should understand this.

Now, explain how Paajarvi's rookie season was better than Turris time with the Sens?
Again, you Zibby comment proves you are commenting about a team and players you know very little about.

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Old
10-09-2012, 01:42 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
So? Not all players develop at the same rate, with Gagner you already know what he is, Turris has always been viewed as a long term project
I'm no Gagner fan by any means but i absolutely hate this argument. How do we know what Gagner already is? He's freaking 22 years old and i know that his offense has stagnated through his first 5 years and he's still way too weak on the puck but how can you say that he's basically a finished product at this juncture? Pure silliness.
I would take Turris long term because i feel that he has a better overall skillset but lets not act like Gagner has no more room for growth at the ripe old age of 22.

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Old
10-09-2012, 03:00 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
I made 5 points in my last post and you have reponded to 2 of them. The second of which is your opinion! I will not take you seriously if you pick and choose parts of my post. You didn't answer the questions or respond to my comments.

You say Turris stuck at 2nd line center because it was a team need??? What?
They could have gotten you to be the second line center for much cheaper. Why did they do that?

So Paajarvi lost his spot because Smith came back. It had nothing to do with 8pts in 41 games? BS!

Teams cannot play both offensive and defensive style. You can play a balanced system, but many teams play a defensive style which affects their offense and vice versa. Oiler fans above anyone else should understand this.

Now, explain how Paajarvi's rookie season was better than Turris time with the Sens?
Again, you Zibby comment proves you are commenting about a team and players you know very little about.
You talk about not watching a team you are commenting on. Perhaps you may wish to take your own advice. There is no doubt that Paajarvi lost his spot because Smyth came back. Renney's plan from the beginning was to have Smyth and Horcoff eat up tons of minutes. And early on Smyth played great. But even after he and Horcoff struggled they still received huge minutes.

Had Smyth not come back Paajarvi would have almost for sure been one of the top two left wingers, and who knows how things might of gone. Instead he ended up on the third line with Belanger who was an absolute black hole offensively last year. No one he played with all year scored. This is why the phrase "The Belanger Triangle" was coined.

The line was frustrating to watch. But I am not giving Paajarvi a pass. He played well defensively, but instead of taking the bull by the horns and becoming more assertive, his game became more tentative as he lost confidence. By the time he went down he was no where near the player he had been the year before.

Going down to the AHL really helped. In his last call-up he played much better. He drove to the net like he did in his rookie year and he started to generate points. He even got a chance to play a game on the first line and looked very good.

After he returned to the AHL he continued to improve. He was the best player on the team in the playoffs.

As for comparing Paajarvi's first year vs Turris last year what you really have is an apples to oranges situation. Paajarvi was a 19 year old kid playing for the first time on NA ice. He also played in a role that was not familiar to him. BUt he really did have a very good season. Turris on the other hand finally got a chance to play in a system and role suited to his talents. No doubt he played quite well. But being 3 years older and a former #2 over all if he had not he may have put a major dent in his hockey career.

For the record, I like Turris. I was someone who would have been fine with a Gagner for Turris deal from the Oilers perspective. I felt Turris was more the type of player who could be the right guy for the Oilers #2 C spot than Gagner. I'd still trade Gagner for Turris. But that does not change the fact that at this point Gagner has done more in the league than Turris has.

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Old
10-09-2012, 03:13 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
You should know better than this. It's really inaccurate. Sam Gagner played the 2nd toughest competition of all centers on the Oilers and outshot the other team by a fair margin despite only having a modest 54% or so ozone start. Turris and Gagner according to the player usage charts were used in almost exactly the same scenario. Turris and Gagner last year shared very similar QoC rating, ZS%, and CorsiRel. The difference is that Gagner played on a worse team and not always with quality players where as Turris was on a playoff team. Gagner still managed to have the better ppg this season as he has every season thus far since their draft year. Hilariously one poster even made up the argument that Turris is better in the dot despite the fact that Gagner actually had a slightly better FO percentage last season. So tell me exactly how Gagner was sheltered when he played literally the exact same minutes as Turris and actually had better results in almost every tangiable stat? Turris only has him beat in +/- and it's not by much despite being on the much better team (+5 compared to +10).

At the end of the day Gagner scored better and had a similar +/- and Corsi rating on a worse team while facing very similar level competion and ZS%. Even in terms of faceoffs Gagner has the edge, and Gagner is also clearly the grittier tougher player. So i would have to argue claims of Turris' superiority in terms of everything not to do with offense is rather ridiculously overstated. Turris is a better skater with a better shot but outside of that there isn't anything tangiable to support claims of his superiority.

Also Gagner has been forced to play the tough minutes before. In the 2009-10 season the Penner-Gagner-Brule line was relied upon very heavily for two way play and was easily the teams best forward unit, albeit the team was just putrid. Penner and Brule for the record enjoyed career seasons playing with Gagner, despite the often tough minutes (Horcoff was hurt at times that year with a bum shoulder, he played through it but in the second half of the year was used more sparingly iirc). Gagner didn't always get the toughest forward matchups that year but as the #1 center he got the other teams top defenseman matched against him. Gagner for his age has been nothing short of very solid in his NHL career and has done everything Turris every has and then some, and it's not even debatable as it's a fact according to the stats. Turris may be the better player but any claims of proof to validate such claims are either fabricated, like this doozy, or overvalued to a ridiculous notion.
How people still attempt to argue Turris is better than Gagner is mind boggling. Homerism at its finest.

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10-09-2012, 07:48 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
I made 5 points in my last post and you have reponded to 2 of them. The second of which is your opinion! I will not take you seriously if you pick and choose parts of my post. You didn't answer the questions or respond to my comments.

You say Turris stuck at 2nd line center because it was a team need??? What?
They could have gotten you to be the second line center for much cheaper. Why did they do that?

So Paajarvi lost his spot because Smith came back. It had nothing to do with 8pts in 41 games? BS!

Teams cannot play both offensive and defensive style. You can play a balanced system, but many teams play a defensive style which affects their offense and vice versa. Oiler fans above anyone else should understand this.

Now, explain how Paajarvi's rookie season was better than Turris time with the Sens?
Again, you Zibby comment proves you are commenting about a team and players you know very little about.
Way to contradict yourself...

You are the one that picked apart my comments. I chose to respond. And yes SMYTH not Smith took his roster spot. Renney was openly criticized for over playing the vets instead of giving minutes to the kids.

You clearly know nothing of the Oiler's system and it shows. And you say teams can't play both offensive and defensive systems?? Yet you then say they can. Detroit is easily the best example of offensive defense. Through puck possession, zone control, drawing penalties etc...

Or how about Vancouver? 5th in goals for and 4th in goals against...

And yes Zibanejad is a center. He can also play both RW/LW. The Sens were planning on using him as a LW this year to get him more time with the club. But like I said, he will eventually surpass Turris...what then? What about Daugavins and Latendresse? Like it or not, Turris will end up as a 3rd line center.

Paajarvi in his rookie season went from playing in the SEL to the worst team in the NHL. He still managed to land more points than Seguin, Johansson, Burmistov, Backlund...

Turris in his rookie year had 20 points in 63 games and was -15.

And you say his production on the Sens was attributed to him? Nope. I would say the Norris winner and All star team captain linemate had more to do with it.

At least with Gagner you know what you get. Turris hasn't proven a thing.

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10-10-2012, 10:43 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Way to contradict yourself...

You are the one that picked apart my comments. I chose to respond. And yes SMYTH not Smith took his roster spot. Renney was openly criticized for over playing the vets instead of giving minutes to the kids.

You clearly know nothing of the Oiler's system and it shows. And you say teams can't play both offensive and defensive systems?? Yet you then say they can. Detroit is easily the best example of offensive defense. Through puck possession, zone control, drawing penalties etc...

Or how about Vancouver? 5th in goals for and 4th in goals against...

And yes Zibanejad is a center. He can also play both RW/LW. The Sens were planning on using him as a LW this year to get him more time with the club. But like I said, he will eventually surpass Turris...what then? What about Daugavins and Latendresse? Like it or not, Turris will end up as a 3rd line center.

Paajarvi in his rookie season went from playing in the SEL to the worst team in the NHL. He still managed to land more points than Seguin, Johansson, Burmistov, Backlund...

Turris in his rookie year had 20 points in 63 games and was -15.

And you say his production on the Sens was attributed to him? Nope. I would say the Norris winner and All star team captain linemate had more to do with it.

At least with Gagner you know what you get. Turris hasn't proven a thing.


I think you have trouble with reading comprehension. Yes I picked apart your comments. You tried to pick apart two of five comments I made. You had no response to the others because I was right.
Smyth taking his spot or not, 8pts in 41 games is ****! I agree he probably would have done better with better linemates but to say he is better than Turris is wrong. I don't care what he did in the AHL, if he was better than Turris he would have stayed in the NHL, Smyth or no Smyth.
Yes, I said teams cannot play both offensive and defensive system. Ofcourse the best teams in the league can do well in both areas, but it begins with a system that has a focus. Can you play a two way system, yes. Does that mean you will go all out offensively and be stingy defensively, no. If you don't understand that, I don't know what to say.
You said Paajarvi's rookie season was better the the season Turris had last year. Now you are changing your tune and comparing their rookie years. Stick with the original discussion instead of changing your tune when someone calls you on it.
Your post that I originally responded to was full of inaccuracies and you are defending it by changing the details to fit your need.
You are not worth discussing anything with if you wont stay with the same details that you started.
Daugavins () or Latendresse?!?! Neither are centers. How will they take Turris spot? Again you are showing your ignorance about the Sens. Then you bring in Gagner.....when were we taking about Gagner?

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10-11-2012, 06:15 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Prajna View Post
I hear ya. I just don't expect ZBad to play center since all indications are the Sens want him to play wing. What the big team wants Bingo does. But I could be totally wrong!
If he does play wing who does he replace in the top two lines? For a 19 year old playing his first year in NA, I think third line is fine until he proves he can knock another winger down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prajna View Post




I think you have trouble with reading comprehension. Yes I picked apart your comments. You tried to pick apart two of five comments I made. You had no response to the others because I was right.
Smyth taking his spot or not, 8pts in 41 games is ****! I agree he probably would have done better with better linemates but to say he is better than Turris is wrong. I don't care what he did in the AHL, if he was better than Turris he would have stayed in the NHL, Smyth or no Smyth.
Yes, I said teams cannot play both offensive and defensive system. Ofcourse the best teams in the league can do well in both areas, but it begins with a system that has a focus. Can you play a two way system, yes. Does that mean you will go all out offensively and be stingy defensively, no. If you don't understand that, I don't know what to say.
You said Paajarvi's rookie season was better the the season Turris had last year. Now you are changing your tune and comparing their rookie years. Stick with the original discussion instead of changing your tune when someone calls you on it.
Your post that I originally responded to was full of inaccuracies and you are defending it by changing the details to fit your need.
You are not worth discussing anything with if you wont stay with the same details that you started.
Daugavins () or Latendresse?!?! Neither are centers. How will they take Turris spot? Again you are showing your ignorance about the Sens. Then you bring in Gagner.....when were we taking about Gagner?
Thank you for proving yourself wrong.

And Gagner was the original topic.... learn to pay attention.

Your arguments have so many contradictions. We provide the facts and stats and you choose to read whatever suits you. Come back with a solid argument and some stats to support it. Fact is without Karlsson, Turris would have had like 10 points. Put him on the Jackets and see how well he does...

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10-11-2012, 06:35 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
Way to contradict yourself...

You are the one that picked apart my comments. I chose to respond. And yes SMYTH not Smith took his roster spot. Renney was openly criticized for over playing the vets instead of giving minutes to the kids.

You clearly know nothing of the Oiler's system and it shows. And you say teams can't play both offensive and defensive systems?? Yet you then say they can. Detroit is easily the best example of offensive defense. Through puck possession, zone control, drawing penalties etc...

Or how about Vancouver? 5th in goals for and 4th in goals against...

And yes Zibanejad is a center. He can also play both RW/LW. The Sens were planning on using him as a LW this year to get him more time with the club. But like I said, he will eventually surpass Turris...what then? What about Daugavins and Latendresse? Like it or not, Turris will end up as a 3rd line center.

Paajarvi in his rookie season went from playing in the SEL to the worst team in the NHL. He still managed to land more points than Seguin, Johansson, Burmistov, Backlund...

Turris in his rookie year had 20 points in 63 games and was -15.

And you say his production on the Sens was attributed to him? Nope. I would say the Norris winner and All star team captain linemate had more to do with it.

At least with Gagner you know what you get. Turris hasn't proven a thing.
Ah yes when losing an argument on HF resort to the spelling/grammar police defense. (this one always works )

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Old
10-11-2012, 04:41 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by SilverHaireDevil View Post
Ah yes when losing an argument on HF resort to the spelling/grammar police defense. (this one always works )
In his defence people always spell Smyth Smith and Gagner Gagne and its slightly annoying

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10-12-2012, 05:06 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by SilverHaireDevil View Post
Ah yes when losing an argument on HF resort to the spelling/grammar police defense. (this one always works )
He was criticizing my knowledge of his team...

He then spelled Smyth's name as Smith. If that didn't bother you at all than I assume you were never a fan of him.

And how was I losing?

By all means, prove your point. That guy certainly did not...

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