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Your veteran defencemen to EDM

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Old
10-08-2012, 12:56 PM
  #126
lakai17
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post

In what world is Gagner = Stepan? They bring similar offense, but Stepan is by far the better two-way player and it's not even close. I do think Gagner gets underrated on here, but let's be surreal. He hasn't proven to be anything more than a below average, one-dimensional, slow skating, undersized centerman that doesn't put up the points to negate his deficiencies.
No kidding! Gagner > Stepan

Gagner stepped into the NHL at the age of 18 with crap linemates compared to who Stepan had the opportunity to play with. Sam Gagner has the opportunity to play with quality linemates on the second line once the lockout ends, so we'll definitely see him become an impact entering his prime.

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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
And no, Petry can not be 'just as good' as Girardi next season. That would mean that he'd log the most minutes in the league against the top lines in the league and come out with better possession ratings. To suggest he's even close is asinine.
Giradi and Petry are different type of defenceman. Petry is more of an offensive defenceman and Girardi is more of a defensive defenceman although Dan can produce as well.

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10-08-2012, 12:57 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
Seabrook for your 1st and Smid + Jones
lets fire up the paperwork!

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10-08-2012, 12:57 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Absolutely ridiculous statement. Truly ignorant.

In what world is Gagner = Stepan? They bring similar offense, but Stepan is by far the better two-way player and it's not even close. I do think Gagner gets underrated on here, but let's be surreal. He hasn't proven to be anything more than a below average, one-dimensional, slow skating, undersized centerman that doesn't put up the points to negate his deficiencies.

And no, Petry can not be 'just as good' as Girardi next season. That would mean that he'd log the most minutes in the league against the top lines in the league and come out with better possession ratings. To suggest he's even close is asinine.
Petry is very good. I feel like maybe you haven't watched him enough. Gagner is a decent 2nd line center but is terribly underrated on HF. Nuge's value is far greater than Dan Girardi's. Your proposal sucked. Hyperbole is a very weak rhetorical device.

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10-08-2012, 01:02 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
His post was pretty ridiculous as was your proposal.
What part of my post? Are you a gagner hater? Cuz Stepan is nothing special. Or maybe you don't think its possible that, given his development curve, Petry could be as good as Girardi? Do you disagree that Girardi caliber dmen are traded 10x more often than 19 year old first overall first line centers? Clarify.

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10-08-2012, 01:07 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
What part of my post? Are you a gagner hater? Cuz Stepan is nothing special. Or maybe you don't think its possible that, given his development curve, Petry could be as good as Girardi? Do you disagree that Girardi caliber dmen are traded 10x more often than 19 year old first overall first line centers? Clarify.
Stepan is a far superior 2 way player. He is excellent defensively while bringing a similar level of offense. It's possible that Gagner breaks out offensively eventually but he hasn't show any signs of that now 5 seasons into his career so it's all hopes and dreams at this point but until then, Stepan is the better player.

Girardi was an all star last season so to suggest that Petry reaches that level as early as next season is completely unreasonable. I like Petry a lot as well and feel that he is universally underrated on HF but he still has a long way to go to be on Girardi's level.

I agree with the last part. The Nuge proposal was plain silly.

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10-08-2012, 01:07 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Done, no take backsies.

Seabrook-Petry
Whitney-J. Schultz
N. Schultz-Peckham/Sutton

I love Smid but Seabrook is a pretty substantial upgrade and that move could vault the Oilers into the playoffs so the 1st wouldn't be too big of a loss.



His post was pretty ridiculous as was your proposal.
Well you aren't getting an all star shutdown defenseman for a 2nd and mid-tier prospects as one poster suggested.

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10-08-2012, 01:10 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by lakai17 View Post
No kidding! Gagner > Stepan

Gagner stepped into the NHL at the age of 18 with crap linemates compared to who Stepan had the opportunity to play with. Sam Gagner has the opportunity to play with quality linemates on the second line once the lockout ends, so we'll definitely see him become an impact entering his prime.
I'm not sure how an 18 year old season has any relevance to 5 years later. Gagner's played with plenty of quality linemates this past season, mainly Hall and Hemsky, both 1st line caliber talents.

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Giradi and Petry are different type of defenceman. Petry is more of an offensive defenceman and Girardi is more of a defensive defenceman although Dan can produce as well.
They're different types of defensemen, but I'm not sure how Petry being more 'offensive' makes him a better player.

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10-08-2012, 01:11 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Well you aren't getting an all star shutdown defenseman for a 2nd and mid-tier prospects as one poster suggested.
Agreed but you're not getting RNH and Petry for Girardi and Stepan, not even close.

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10-08-2012, 01:15 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Petry is very good. I feel like maybe you haven't watched him enough. Gagner is a decent 2nd line center but is terribly underrated on HF. Nuge's value is far greater than Dan Girardi's. Your proposal sucked. Hyperbole is a very weak rhetorical device.
Petry is very good, I definitely agree. I am a big fan of his and he should round out into a nice #3-4 defenseman.

Can he be better than Dan Girardi? Perhaps he can, crazier things have happened and Petry has the better tools than Girardi, mainly skating. But what are the chances of a sophomore defenseman being 'just as good' as an All-Star shutdown defenseman who was 2nd in the league in total TOI/pg? I'd say the chances are as good as Stepan outproducing Nugent-Hopkins next year, AKA nearly impossible.

Gagner is not a decent 2nd line center, I'd say he is a 2nd line center, but a below average one. He doesn't produce enough offensively, he isn't big, he can't skate that well and brings nothing to the defensive side of the game. He has value and I agree that he is underrated on HF. But not Stepan value.

Of course Nuge's value is far greater than Girardi's, I never hinted otherwise.

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10-08-2012, 01:19 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Agreed but you're not getting RNH and Petry for Girardi and Stepan, not even close.
I don't think it's that bad, I agree that the Oilers don't do it. IMO the difference between Stepan and Nuge is as great as the difference between Petry and Girardi, but not by much. Perhaps add in another top prospect from NYR side like a Fasth or Miller.

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10-08-2012, 01:34 PM
  #136
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I'm gonna let the Petry vs Girardi discussion die because currently Girardi is clearly better.

I will however jump back on the Stepan vs. Gagner topic. People saying Gags sucks and Stepan is awesome defensively have some work to do to convince me. I looked up their numbers and a few things jumped out. Keep in mind that Stepan had BY FAR the better supporting cast, including playing with probably the best group of dmen in the league behind him. Stats now:

Stepan Zone Start 62.9%vs. Zone Finish 50.1
Gagner Zone Start 54.1 vs. Zone Finish 51.8

Stepan was getting very favourable zone starts and ended them pretty badly, losing a whopping 12.8%. That's a bad number and sure as hell doesn't indicate good defensive play. Gagner was exactly what you'd expect for a 2nd liner.

Stepan Corsi Rel: -1.8 , one of the worst on his team

Gagner Corsi Rel: 6.3 , 4th best on team

Gagner led his team in +/-, Stepan was middle of the pack.

QoC were nearly identical.

These numbers indicate that Gagner was better than Stepan defensively.

Offensively, Gagner was 1.96 p/60. Stepan was 1.69 p/60.

Gagner was better offensively. Stepan's pdo was higher, indicating he had better puck luck.

I'm sorry, i'm just not seeing why I should consider Stepan > Gagner at all. In fact after doin a bit of research I think I was being generous in calling them a wash. Based on performance on a better team last year, I'd say that Stepan is a considerably inferior player to Sam Gagner.

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10-08-2012, 01:43 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
I don't think it's that bad, I agree that the Oilers don't do it. IMO the difference between Stepan and Nuge is as great as the difference between Petry and Girardi, but not by much. Perhaps add in another top prospect from NYR side like a Fasth or Miller.
But the difference between an all star shutdown D (ala Girardi) and a 1st overall, 19 year old, potentially elite playmaking center (ala Nuge) is massive.

Trading Nuge would be a mistake. Trading Nuge for Girardi would be inexplicable.

Under no circumstances would trading Nuge for Girardi be justifiable for Oiler brass.

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10-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Girardi + Stepan for Nuge and Petry.
You should probably stop calling other people ingnorant while making posts like this.....

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10-08-2012, 02:07 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
I'm gonna let the Petry vs Girardi discussion die because currently Girardi is clearly better.

I will however jump back on the Stepan vs. Gagner topic. People saying Gags sucks and Stepan is awesome defensively have some work to do to convince me. I looked up their numbers and a few things jumped out. Keep in mind that Stepan had BY FAR the better supporting cast, including playing with probably the best group of dmen in the league behind him. Stats now:

Stepan Zone Start 62.9%vs. Zone Finish 50.1
Gagner Zone Start 54.1 vs. Zone Finish 51.8

Stepan was getting very favourable zone starts and ended them pretty badly, losing a whopping 12.8%. That's a bad number and sure as hell doesn't indicate good defensive play. Gagner was exactly what you'd expect for a 2nd liner.

Stepan Corsi Rel: -1.8 , one of the worst on his team

Gagner Corsi Rel: 6.3 , 4th best on team

Gagner led his team in +/-, Stepan was middle of the pack.

QoC were nearly identical.

These numbers indicate that Gagner was better than Stepan defensively.

Offensively, Gagner was 1.96 p/60. Stepan was 1.69 p/60.

Gagner was better offensively. Stepan's pdo was higher, indicating he had better puck luck.

I'm sorry, i'm just not seeing why I should consider Stepan > Gagner at all. In fact after doin a bit of research I think I was being generous in calling them a wash. Based on performance on a better team last year, I'd say that Stepan is a considerably inferior player to Sam Gagner.
Hmm, I'll agree to disagree. And if you think Petry is going to play as big of a role as Girardi did? Top QUALCOMP, zone start finishes/tough starts, top CorsiRelQOC, good luck. Edmonton hasn't had a defenseman of Girardi's ilk since Pronger.

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10-08-2012, 02:32 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Hmm, I'll agree to disagree. And if you think Petry is going to play as big of a role as Girardi did? Top QUALCOMP, zone start finishes/tough starts, top CorsiRelQOC, good luck. Edmonton hasn't had a defenseman of Girardi's ilk since Pronger.
I am disappoint


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10-08-2012, 02:48 PM
  #141
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I think Girardi has a decent amount of value over Petry. Petry could become as good as or better than Girardi but he could also stagnate. We have to give up value in order to turn that possibility into a certainty.

That being said, I think RNH is worth so much more than Stepan that I wouldn't do it. I think RNH is gonna be the best out of the 4 Oiler kids

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10-08-2012, 06:53 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Agreed but you're not getting RNH and Petry for Girardi and Stepan, not even close.
That's a pretty solid deal.

The only problem is RNH is the Oilers future number one center. If the Oilers had another center coming up, like if they drafted a center instead of Galchenyuk, then that deal would be a win-win.

Stepan can be your 60 point two-way centerman, Girardi can be your minute eating number two defensemen. Petry is still a prospect, and the only hit is getting rid of RNH's 90+ point potential. Without another center to replace him, it doesn't help the Oilers.

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10-08-2012, 11:25 PM
  #143
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Petry, 24 years old, may never be quite as good defensively as a Dan Girardi, who is a pure shutdown D, but I do think the Oilers would make a mistake in trading him so early when he really turned a corner in the 2nd half of last season. He has top pairing potential.

Of course the Oilers were pretty damn bad last year so fans of other teams will think what the hell, you wouldn't trade Petry for a proven, bonafide NHLer at this point? It really depends. I don't think it's a guarantee Whitney re-signs after his deal is done, and he is clearly Edmonton's best all round, as well as offensive defenseman when healthy.

Schultz looks like he could be a stud O-Dman but he's still a bit green. If the Oilers lose Whitney, that leaves Petry as their best puck moving D and PPQB who's of an age where they're entering really good athletic and development years.

I don't think you will see the Oilers suck next season on defense if they can stay healthy. Nothing amazing but it's a solid group that's continuing to develop. If anyone gets traded it's Whitney IMO. Although I wouldn't want the Oilers to trade him either.

TBH I really like the Oilers D-corps moving forward, what I don't like is their bottom 6 forward depth and particularly their goaltending. So its even tough for the Oilers to trade away their grinder, blood and guts type players. The only reason they should overpay i.e. one of their best young D players/prospects and a 1st/2nd round pick to start, is if they're getting a legit top pairing, two way D man back.

RNH is not going anywhere short of a Weber or Malkin calibre franchise player coming in return. Future stud #1 centre >>>> #1 D-man or multiple solid centres/forwards.


Last edited by Philly85: 10-08-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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10-08-2012, 11:53 PM
  #144
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this is a fun thread

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10-09-2012, 03:27 AM
  #145
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How did this turn into Gagner vs Stepan and Petry vs Girardi.

I really like Petry. But Girardi is soooo undervalued at times. He is easily one of the best shutdown D in the league. Having both him and Staal on the same team is ridiculous.

And Gagner vs Stepan...

At this point I would take Stepan over Gagner. Both have tons of upside. But Stepan is clearly improving at a faster rate.

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10-09-2012, 03:35 AM
  #146
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Lydman for Gagner? Or Hartkainen?

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10-09-2012, 04:37 AM
  #147
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I keep hearing that Petry has top pairing potential from Edmonton fans, but I saw some of his games in Edmonton, and then again at the WC's, and I just didn't see top pairing capability in him. Hell, at the WC's, he was a fair step below Johnson, Fowler, and Faulk... and they are pretty good examples of top pairing potential D. I can't help but wonder if he's being overrated a bit by Oiler fans. He seems more like a potential good 3rd or 4th D. At least, if we're looking at playoff quality defense. At 24 years of age, I'd just expect more from him, if he was going to reach that level of play.

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10-09-2012, 11:56 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
I'm gonna let the Petry vs Girardi discussion die because currently Girardi is clearly better.

I will however jump back on the Stepan vs. Gagner topic. People saying Gags sucks and Stepan is awesome defensively have some work to do to convince me. I looked up their numbers and a few things jumped out. Keep in mind that Stepan had BY FAR the better supporting cast, including playing with probably the best group of dmen in the league behind him. Stats now:

Stepan Zone Start 62.9%vs. Zone Finish 50.1
Gagner Zone Start 54.1 vs. Zone Finish 51.8

Stepan was getting very favourable zone starts and ended them pretty badly, losing a whopping 12.8%. That's a bad number and sure as hell doesn't indicate good defensive play. Gagner was exactly what you'd expect for a 2nd liner.

Stepan Corsi Rel: -1.8 , one of the worst on his team

Gagner Corsi Rel: 6.3 , 4th best on team

Gagner led his team in +/-, Stepan was middle of the pack.

QoC were nearly identical.

These numbers indicate that Gagner was better than Stepan defensively.

Offensively, Gagner was 1.96 p/60. Stepan was 1.69 p/60.

Gagner was better offensively. Stepan's pdo was higher, indicating he had better puck luck.

I'm sorry, i'm just not seeing why I should consider Stepan > Gagner at all. In fact after doin a bit of research I think I was being generous in calling them a wash. Based on performance on a better team last year, I'd say that Stepan is a considerably inferior player to Sam Gagner.

Instead of basing your opinion on Corsi statistics, you can always just, watch Stepan play. If you have watched Steps, it would be a no-brainer who the better player is.

Corsi statistics is nice for people who don't know a damn thing about a player, but want to make pretend they do. Statistics don't tell you anything. Marek Malik lead the NHL in +/- a few years ago, but only a fool would suggest he was exceptional in any way.

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10-09-2012, 12:12 PM
  #149
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Just an outside opinion. I'd much rather have Stepan on my team than Gagner.

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10-09-2012, 12:26 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Just an outside opinion. I'd much rather have Stepan on my team than Gagner.
Most outside opinions that have watched both players play would say the same. I'd bet real human money on that.

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