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Kessel to the ducks

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Old
10-09-2012, 11:44 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
I can only imagine the numbers Kessel would put up playing with Perry and Getzlaf.
You can go on imagining that. It's a lot less abstract to imagine Ryan's numbers in a usual year for him, while finally getting PP1 time.

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10-09-2012, 04:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
No, and I didn't say that, you did. But he is better than Ryan -- that is what I said. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

Yet opposing players relive past glory of 3-4 years ago.


Thats what you said.

Same difference.

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10-09-2012, 04:20 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ducks get incredibly worse at center in this trade unless Kadri pans out soon. If you make it Perry + 1st for Kessel + Kadri, that's probably closer to value and gets the Ducks younger and the Leafs more physical.
Corey Perry's better than Kessel at every facet of the game (probably not as good of a shot, but he's a much more proven goal scorer). Kadri won't get us a 1st, so this deal is literally us ripping the Ducks off.

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Old
10-09-2012, 06:17 PM
  #79
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No from the Leafs. Only way I might do it is if you take out Kessel and Ryan, and do it only with a guaranteed extension for Getzlaf.

Even then, it's questionable that this even makes the Leafs better.

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10-09-2012, 06:27 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Any evidence for this or is it based on subjectivity?

Take a look at Bobby's production on the PP:
'11-'12: 11 PP points averaging 2:09 PP TOI/game (4th amongst Duck forwards)
'10-'11: 10 PP points averaging 2:24 PP TOI/game (4th amongst Duck forwards)
'09-'10: 21 PP points averaging 2:52 PP TOI/game (4th amongst Duck forwards)
'08-'09: 23 PP points averaging 2:42 PP TOI/game (4th amongst Duck forwards)

Kessel in his breakout season with Boston:
'08-'09: 15 PP points averaging 2:22 PP TOI/game (7th amongst Bruin forwards)
Kessel last season:
'11-'12: 23 PP points averaging 3:20 PP TOI/game (1st amongst Leaf forwards)

Bobby's efficiency on the PP has been decreasing over the years even though he's been mainly used on the 2nd PP unit. Kessel's production rose by a whopping 8 PP points by playing 1st PP unit minutes on the Leafs (it's not exactly a slam dunk Bobby will see a dramatic increase in production if he saw 1st PP unit minutes on the Leafs).

While, in Phil's case, replacing Crabb/Versteeg with Lupul on his line has led him to produce 99 points in the 94 games Lupul's been a Leaf.
GEE Do ya think it's because the guys he plays with on the 2nd unit have constantly gotten worse over the years? Ryan just had by far the worst year of his career, and still put up over 30, while constantly being shuffled around and little quality PP minutes.

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Old
10-09-2012, 07:46 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
Yet opposing players relive past glory of 3-4 years ago.


Thats what you said.

Same difference.
Are you talking about the last 4 years when Kessel put up 30+ each of?

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10-09-2012, 08:19 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Are you talking about the last 4 years when Kessel put up 30+ each of?
No, I think we're talking about the one year that Kessel put up a PPG, having greater significance than the three other years he didn't.

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10-09-2012, 08:22 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
The comparison wasn't Getzlaf versus Kessel -- Getzlaf ha intangibles. The point was and is Kessel > Ryan. Kessel had a breakout year -- to suggest he'll never approach that again is nonsense -- he's only 25. And his "breakout year" was better than any year Ryan has had.

I can only imagine the numbers Kessel would put up playing with Perry and Getzlaf.
At no time did I say Kessel would never approach his career year numbers. What I said, and what I've always said, is that Kessel needs to prove that he can reproduce his PPG numbers before we start extrapolating an entire career of him as a PPG player... which is exactly what you've been trying to do.

Your entire argument can be summarized by saying "Kessel had a PPG season, which means he's better than Ryan, who didn't."

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10-09-2012, 08:30 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
No, I think we're talking about the one year that Kessel put up a PPG, having greater significance than the three other years he didn't.
He put up 82 points as a 24 year old last season. He was always significant on the Leafs and carried the offense with little help from his linemates. Last season he had Lupul who was the first legitimate top 3 forward that Kessel had play with him. If you watched the Leafs in the past you'd know that his playmaking abilities really took off last season and towards the middle he also started playing acceptable defensively. He's a maturing player and is still improving his overall game. Kessel is one of the leagues top young players.

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10-09-2012, 10:35 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
He's a maturing player and is still improving his overall game. Kessel is one of the leagues top young players.
Crosby, Toews, Giroux, Backstrom, Pietrangelo, Tavares, Stamkos etc are among the leagues top young players. Kessel is an above average first liner.

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10-09-2012, 11:46 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
He put up 82 points as a 24 year old last season. He was always significant on the Leafs and carried the offense with little help from his linemates. Last season he had Lupul who was the first legitimate top 3 forward that Kessel had play with him. If you watched the Leafs in the past you'd know that his playmaking abilities really took off last season and towards the middle he also started playing acceptable defensively. He's a maturing player and is still improving his overall game. Kessel is one of the leagues top young players.
Based on what? He's not in the elite category of young players. A real good one, without a doubt, but compared to list of players Paul named, I really don't think he matches up. Neither does Bobby Ryan, for that matter.

No one is denying Kessel is a great young player, but I see some Toronto fans trying to put him into a category that, somehow, makes it seem like Ryan couldn't even tie Kessel's jock. I doubt you'd see many fans who don't cheer for the Leafs agree. Kessel definitely had the better season, but I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of people who would happily take Ryan over Kessel.

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Old
10-09-2012, 11:51 PM
  #87
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this trade was based upon getzlaf not signing and not based on if kessel is better then ryan but on the leafs getting tougher

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10-10-2012, 12:43 AM
  #88
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I think Toronto overpays. Kessel is worth at least as much as Ryan if not more. Getzlaf is going to be a UFA in a year iirc. To give up your best center who's a high quality top 6 center in Grabovski is alot considering Getzlaf may not resign. The added incentive of Kadri, losing the Kessel-Ryan swap and a 1st rounder is alot for a UFA IMO. Franson is a potential throw in but he doesn't have too much impact in terms of value in a deal like this. Getzlaf is unreal but Toronto shouldn't gut their top 6 and prospect pool to get a chance at resigning him, it's foolish IMO.

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10-10-2012, 01:41 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Love how Kadri is considered a bust. You know Ryan, yes the Ryan in this thread that some are saying=Kessel, well he was kept down for the most part until his 3rd or 4th season. Busted? No, only a 30 goal scorer. Maybe go a bit back to Spezza, he was brought up and down for his 3rd year since drafted, and then made it iirc. Then he was kept down in the A for lockout, and after came out shining. Kadri is a bust, because he is a Leaf
Spezza made the NHL full time in his 3rd year and put up 55 points. He didn't make the team as a 19yo full time because they were the Presidents Trophy winners.

Bobby Ryan made it full time in his 4the year and put up 31 goals and 57 points in 64 games. He likely had difficulty making the team the before in part because they were the defending Stanley Cup champs.

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10-10-2012, 04:42 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Based on what? He's not in the elite category of young players. A real good one, without a doubt, but compared to list of players Paul named, I really don't think he matches up. Neither does Bobby Ryan, for that matter.

No one is denying Kessel is a great young player, but I see some Toronto fans trying to put him into a category that, somehow, makes it seem like Ryan couldn't even tie Kessel's jock. I doubt you'd see many fans who don't cheer for the Leafs agree. Kessel definitely had the better season, but I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of people who would happily take Ryan over Kessel.
Look sometimes your just wasting your time.Just last week i disagreed that Kulemin was an elite player with no avail.The word elite is used by some in here very loosely.

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10-10-2012, 05:10 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Spezza made the NHL full time in his 3rd year and put up 55 points. He didn't make the team as a 19yo full time because they were the Presidents Trophy winners.

Bobby Ryan made it full time in his 4the year and put up 31 goals and 57 points in 64 games. He likely had difficulty making the team the before in part because they were the defending Stanley Cup champs.
That and cap reasons.

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10-10-2012, 05:11 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I think Toronto overpays. Kessel is worth at least as much as Ryan if not more. Getzlaf is going to be a UFA in a year iirc. To give up your best center who's a high quality top 6 center in Grabovski is alot considering Getzlaf may not resign. The added incentive of Kadri, losing the Kessel-Ryan swap and a 1st rounder is alot for a UFA IMO. Franson is a potential throw in but he doesn't have too much impact in terms of value in a deal like this. Getzlaf is unreal but Toronto shouldn't gut their top 6 and prospect pool to get a chance at resigning him, it's foolish IMO.
How does Toronto overpay? they get 2 first liners for 1 and a second liner, with some throw ins. one of those first liners was a PPG center for 4 years straight until last year and has a proven track record of playoff success, the other first liner is 25 and has 4 30 goal years to start his career.

Toronto would be a much better team with Getzlaf and Ryan, it's not even close!

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10-10-2012, 07:40 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
At no time did I say Kessel would never approach his career year numbers. What I said, and what I've always said, is that Kessel needs to prove that he can reproduce his PPG numbers before we start extrapolating an entire career of him as a PPG player... which is exactly what you've been trying to do.

Your entire argument can be summarized by saying "Kessel had a PPG season, which means he's better than Ryan, who didn't."
No argument there. What I'm trying to say is based on the last few years and largely last year Kessel's value is greater than that of Ryan. Kessel had a great season and his value went up as a result of that.

It happens all the time when players break out. Kessel is no different.

As for the trade I can understand if Duck fans wouldn't want to do it. I was only responding to Kadri is a bust and Ryan is better than Kessel. Both of which are untrue.

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10-10-2012, 08:03 AM
  #94
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I'd take Ryan over Kessel any day. Both are mid-30 goal scorers, but Ryan has many other elements to his game that Kessel lacks. When Kessel isn't scoring goals, he has little to no impact on the game whatsoever. It drives Leaf fans 'mad' when he's in the middle of a scoring drought, because he does nothing else. Kessel is a very good goal scorer, but mediocre at every other facet of the game.

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10-10-2012, 10:29 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
I'd take Ryan over Kessel any day. Both are mid-30 goal scorers, but Ryan has many other elements to his game that Kessel lacks. When Kessel isn't scoring goals, he has little to no impact on the game whatsoever. It drives Leaf fans 'mad' when he's in the middle of a scoring drought, because he does nothing else. Kessel is a very good goal scorer, but mediocre at every other facet of the game.
Except Kessel has been our most consistent player the past three seasons...

The only knock I have on Kessel is his commitment to taking a hit. He's progressed in the d-zone and on the back check. He's never going to be a Toews/Bergeron type player.

What he does do, he does at an elite level. That's puck movement, transitional play, playmaking, and scoring. Yes he is mediocre (average, but I'm sure most Leaf fans will read that with a negative connotation) with some facets of the game, but no ones ever gonna claim Kessel's the American Crosby...right? He is what he is...which is an elite RW who can playmake and score with the best in the league, has blinding speed and rarely will take a game off.

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10-10-2012, 12:24 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
I'd take Ryan over Kessel any day. Both are mid-30 goal scorers, but Ryan has many other elements to his game that Kessel lacks. When Kessel isn't scoring goals, he has little to no impact on the game whatsoever. It drives Leaf fans 'mad' when he's in the middle of a scoring drought, because he does nothing else. Kessel is a very good goal scorer, but mediocre at every other facet of the game.
There was never any doubt in who the Bruins biggest homer would take.

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10-10-2012, 01:15 PM
  #97
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If the Leafs could get Getzlaf to agree to a contract extension this is a deal I would like to see happen, although it would be hard seeing Kessel leave.

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10-10-2012, 03:39 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
If the Leafs could get Getzlaf to agree to a contract extension this is a deal I would like to see happen, although it would be hard seeing Kessel leave.
If we were getting Getzlaf AND Ryan, it wouldn't be hard to see Phil go at all. Estabilshed #1 center + "physical" 1st line winger for sniping 1st line winger + 2nd line center + potential top 4 D + 1st.

I'll take Getzlaf and Ryan. We'd be set up front for a while. While Grabo's an amazing 2nd line center, they are much easier to replace. I'd take this deal and run.

edit: That being said, knowing our luck with draft picks, I'd prefer if the 1st was conditional on Getzlaf's production. If he scores more than 70 points per say, even if it is top 5, they take it. If he doesn't break 50 and we're at the bottom of the barrel, it's next year's. Of course this all depends on whether or not it's an "extend and trade". If Getzlaf doesn't sign with us, we get completely shafted.

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10-10-2012, 03:51 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post
There was never any doubt in who the Bruins biggest homer would take.
He'd take the better player. Both average the same amount of goals, similar points.. Same age, same position. So now we get into intangibles. That's where Ryan takes Kessel hands down. Homer or not, Ryan > Kessel.

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10-10-2012, 04:15 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
He'd take the better player. Both average the same amount of goals, similar points.. Same age, same position. So now we get into intangibles. That's where Ryan takes Kessel hands down. Homer or not, Ryan > Kessel.
****in' lol

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