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Old
10-08-2012, 11:08 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Clearly superior? Lets put it that way ; would you trade Emelin to acquire O'Byrne?
Without a doubt.

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10-08-2012, 12:54 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
oh I see... he LOOKS better ok...

and at 24, 25, he kept improving...


really...
Yeah, really. Weber is not the first possible bust in the NHL and St. Denis is not the first undrafted guy that could end up reaching the NHL in his mid twenties. There is nothing exceptional about that.

I'm very concerned about Weber's development, or lack thereof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD
To be honest, Frédérick St-Denis wouldn't have been in my starting lineup if there would have been a season, because there is no room for him at this point. Diaz and Bouillon are both ahead of him.

First call up? Possibly, due to the fact that he's pretty versatile.
I agree. St. Denis is not spectacular but he's reliable which is good on a team that can't afford to screw up often.

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Originally Posted by LeMAD
Without a doubt.
I'm very glad you are not GM then. Emelin is younger, improving and has much better puck skills, is more physical (he doesn't fight but hits much more and better than O'Byrne ever did) and will probably end up being more effective in every aspect. Emelin is also a better troll.

Other team's fans talk about Emelin because he annoys them and kills their players with monster hits. Other team's fans talk about O'Byrne because he's taller than the others, steals purses and scored in his own net.

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10-08-2012, 01:42 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I'm very glad you are not GM then. Emelin is younger, improving and has much better puck skills, is more physical (he doesn't fight but hits much more and better than O'Byrne ever did) and will probably end up being more effective in every aspect. Emelin is also a better troll.

Other team's fans talk about Emelin because he annoys them and kills their players with monster hits. Other team's fans talk about O'Byrne because he's taller than the others, steals purses and scored in his own net.
But O'Byrne can play defense.

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10-08-2012, 02:12 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
But O'Byrne can play defense.
It took him a long time just not be a constant liability, i wouldn't say it's his forte. Emelin should be given time before throwing him under the bus.

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10-09-2012, 09:19 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Yeah, really. Weber is not the first possible bust in the NHL and St. Denis is not the first undrafted guy that could end up reaching the NHL in his mid twenties. There is nothing exceptional about that.

I'm very concerned about Weber's development, or lack thereof.



I agree. St. Denis is not spectacular but he's reliable which is good on a team that can't afford to screw up often.
and most of them become 6/7th D por 12/13 F AT BEST, true there'S nothing exceptionnal about that

funny to see people willing to give away a player with higher potential just cause a guy looked decent for a short strech as a 6th D.

maybe if we were a PO team, a good one, we"d need the reliability... but we're not

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10-09-2012, 10:42 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
But O'Byrne can play defense.
It took him until he was like 26 to be able to do that.

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10-09-2012, 08:01 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and most of them become 6/7th D por 12/13 F AT BEST, true there'S nothing exceptionnal about that

funny to see people willing to give away a player with higher potential just cause a guy looked decent for a short strech as a 6th D.

maybe if we were a PO team, a good one, we"d need the reliability... but we're not
...Not exceptional is better than non-nhler or "no progress whatsoever in the last 3 seasons".

Besides, next season, we'll have guys like Beaulieu and Ellis (possibly Bennett?) knocking at the door. All of those guys have the potential to be better than Yannick Weber is at this point.


Last edited by MXD: 10-09-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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10-09-2012, 08:22 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and most of them become 6/7th D por 12/13 F AT BEST, true there'S nothing exceptionnal about that
At best? Not really. At best they can be very useful NHLers, very rarely they can even become NHL stars (and thats at best). Usually they'd make 6-7th D or utility forwards, true, but a useful undrafted or late pick no6 defensemen or fourth liner is infinitely more useful than a highly drafted good AHLer that can't manage to get find a place in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
funny to see people willing to give away a player with higher potential just cause a guy looked decent for a short strech as a 6th D.

maybe if we were a PO team, a good one, we"d need the reliability... but we're not
And we were a bad team in good part because we completely lacked reliability on defense. I believe St. Denis is a good no7-8 defensemen precisely because thats not a role you want defensemen with potential to have.

Having Weber as a no7 makes no sense because he won't gain confidence or get better if he barely plays and has no set role (a no7's role depends on who is benched or injured). If we keep Weber he has to show he has a place in the top6. He has to outperform at least one of our top6 defensemen otherwise we should trade him for his own sake (and while he might still have some value). I'm all for Weber if he manages to convince people that he needs to be kept.

Potential is only worth something if the player uses it. Pouliot has more raw potential than Moen and is much younger yet I'd take Moen on my team every time. The same way a guy like Mathieu Darche is more useful as a 13th forward than Corey Locke, a much more skilled but far less versatile guy, would be. There is a point were you realize the guy with the lowest potential is actually a better player than the high potential guy. Think Shawn Belle (big first round pick that had ''top4 potential'' and turned out to be a complete failure) vs Josh Gorges (undrafted, a bit older that had ''no6-7, AHL potential'' and became a solid top4 defensive D )


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 10-09-2012 at 08:31 PM.
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10-09-2012, 09:40 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
At best? Not really. At best they can be very useful NHLers, very rarely they can even become NHL stars (and thats at best). Usually they'd make 6-7th D or utility forwards, true, but a useful undrafted or late pick no6 defensemen or fourth liner is infinitely more useful than a highly drafted good AHLer that can't manage to get find a place in the NHL.



And we were a bad team in good part because we completely lacked reliability on defense. I believe St. Denis is a good no7-8 defensemen precisely because thats not a role you want defensemen with potential to have.

Having Weber as a no7 makes no sense because he won't gain confidence or get better if he barely plays and has no set role (a no7's role depends on who is benched or injured). If we keep Weber he has to show he has a place in the top6. He has to outperform at least one of our top6 defensemen otherwise we should trade him for his own sake (and while he might still have some value). I'm all for Weber if he manages to convince people that he needs to be kept.

Potential is only worth something if the player uses it. Pouliot has more raw potential than Moen and is much younger yet I'd take Moen on my team every time. The same way a guy like Mathieu Darche is more useful as a 13th forward than Corey Locke, a much more skilled but far less versatile guy, would be. There is a point were you realize the guy with the lowest potential is actually a better player than the high potential guy. Think Shawn Belle (big first round pick that had ''top4 potential'' and turned out to be a complete failure) vs Josh Gorges (undrafted, a bit older that had ''no6-7, AHL potential'' and became a solid top4 defensive D )
wow... we didnt have a reliable -> 7TH D... that's why we were bad...

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10-09-2012, 09:51 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
wow... we didnt have a reliable -> 7TH D... that's why we were bad...
Again : And we were a bad team in good part because we completely lacked reliability on defense.

That was our defense last year :

injured Markov
Gorges
Subban
rookie Diaz
rookie Emelin
unspectacular Weber
slumpling Kaberle/Spacek
''I have no idea what I'm doing, but its not working'' Campoli
aging Hal Gill
call-up St-Denis

Conclusion = we completely lacked reliability last year. If you read my quoted post again you'll see I was talking about our defense, not our no7 defensemen.

Having a good or bad 7th D won't ever make the difference between a perennial contender and a draft lottery team but its part of the equation in making a defense group more solid and reliable if players are injured, which always happen.

A poor guy suddenly won't become rich if he stops eating at the restaurant all the time but its certainly a good start in being able to pay the bills. See what I mean?

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10-09-2012, 10:17 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by LeMAD View Post
Without a doubt.
There were many nights last year, when O'byrne could have helped
our defense. Hell, Paul Mara would have improved our D last year. But
not by much, in either case.
Emelin might soon, possibly by next season, contribute something to a
competative team.
And it is more likely that O'Byrne has reached his ceiling, than Emelin,
the season after that.

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10-09-2012, 11:42 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Again : And we were a bad team in good part because we completely lacked reliability on defense.

That was our defense last year :

injured Markov
Gorges
Subban
rookie Diaz
rookie Emelin
unspectacular Weber
slumpling Kaberle/Spacek
''I have no idea what I'm doing, but its not working'' Campoli
aging Hal Gill
call-up St-Denis

Conclusion = we completely lacked reliability last year. If you read my quoted post again you'll see I was talking about our defense, not our no7 defensemen.

Having a good or bad 7th D won't ever make the difference between a perennial contender and a draft lottery team but its part of the equation in making a defense group more solid and reliable if players are injured, which always happen.

A poor guy suddenly won't become rich if he stops eating at the restaurant all the time but its certainly a good start in being able to pay the bills. See what I mean?
you said it yourself, St Denis is a 7th/8th D, whatever you wrote after the first bolded part is B.S...

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10-10-2012, 07:35 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you said it yourself, St Denis is a 7th/8th D, whatever you wrote after the first bolded part is B.S...
Why are you so adamant on keeping a 24 years old 10th D-Men (which is not an NHL roster spot), and on sending down a 26 years old 7th D-Men (...which is an NHL roster spot)?

Potential? Pah! If that'S the only criteria, we'd better be keeping Nathan Beaulieu with the team instead.

The truth is : Head Coaches actually want to win hockey games. They can be "forced" by contracts and CBA stipulations, but they'll chose the player they consider the most useful. Actually, if Therrien wants to win games, both Weber and St-Denis will start the next season (... or this season) elsewhere than in the NHL, unless one of the Top-7 (that is, Subban, Markov, Gorges, Emelin, Kaberle, Bouillon, Diaz) is injured.

And, come to think of it, for that very reason, I'd be extremely surprised if Weber comes back in NA this season. One full year in Europe could help him, to a certain extent. Mainly on improving his confidence.


Last edited by MXD: 10-10-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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10-10-2012, 08:45 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Why are you so adamant on keeping a 24 years old 10th D-Men (which is not an NHL roster spot), and on sending down a 26 years old 7th D-Men (...which is an NHL roster spot)?

Potential? Pah! If that'S the only criteria, we'd better be keeping Nathan Beaulieu with the team instead.

The truth is : Head Coaches actually want to win hockey games. They can be "forced" by contracts and CBA stipulations, but they'll chose the player they consider the most useful. Actually, if Therrien wants to win games, both Weber and St-Denis will start the next season (... or this season) elsewhere than in the NHL, unless one of the Top-7 (that is, Subban, Markov, Gorges, Emelin, Kaberle, Bouillon, Diaz) is injured.

And, come to think of it, for that very reason, I'd be extremely surprised if Weber comes back in NA this season. One full year in Europe could help him, to a certain extent. Mainly on improving his confidence.
stop that BS, even you, you put it in the middle (sorta) of 10th D men in your last post... AND above St Denis in your list...

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10-10-2012, 08:48 AM
  #140
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Diaz is the 7th dman, Weber is the 8th, and St-Denis is the 9th.

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10-10-2012, 11:19 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you said it yourself, St Denis is a 7th/8th D, whatever you wrote after the first bolded part is B.S...
Why do I even bother making more than one liner posts with thought out opinions, I wonder.

Weber sucks and is a bust. There you go, answer that so I can proclaim everything you say is be BS.

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10-10-2012, 07:13 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
stop that BS, even you, you put it in the middle (sorta) of 10th D men in your last post... AND above St Denis in your list...
Why you bother reading message boards? I'm not even the author of that list!

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Diaz is the 7th dman, Weber is the 8th, and St-Denis is the 9th.
Well, in terms of "effectiveness and overall usefulness", St-Denis and Weber must be switched, at least, if we give any weight to the advanced stats. Weber basically did everything to make sure he wouldn't play defense last season.

Of course, if Markov or Subban or even Kaberle goes down, the call up would obviously be Weber.

In other words, I took the "terminology" of ECWHSWI, who categorized St-Denis as a 7th D-Men. With the Habs, that "spot" on the depth is occupied by Diaz. Actually, if would be occupied by Bouillon if our 5th D wasn't an offensive-minded D-Men with some serious defensive shortcomings (Kaberle).

Still, I'd be willing to give a chance to Weber at the end of the lockout. He's playing QUITE a lot in Switzerland,with good results, and, who knows, maybe it's only a thing of confidence. IF he wants to come back, that is. We'd have to consider as extremely possible the fact that Weber remains in Europe when the lockout ends, even if it ends this season.

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10-10-2012, 07:24 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Why you bother reading message boards? I'm not even the author of that list!



Well, in terms of "effectiveness and overall usefulness", St-Denis and Weber must be switched, at least, if we give any weight to the advanced stats. Weber basically did everything to make sure he wouldn't play defense last season.

Of course, if Markov or Subban or even Kaberle goes down, the call up would obviously be Weber.

In other words, I took the "terminology" of ECWHSWI, who categorized St-Denis as a 7th D-Men. With the Habs, that "spot" on the depth is occupied by Diaz. Actually, if would be occupied by Bouillon if our 5th D wasn't an offensive-minded D-Men with some serious defensive shortcomings (Kaberle).

Still, I'd be willing to give a chance to Weber at the end of the lockout. He's playing QUITE a lot in Switzerland,with good results, and, who knows, maybe it's only a thing of confidence. IF he wants to come back, that is. We'd have to consider as extremely possible the fact that Weber remains in Europe when the lockout ends, even if it ends this season.
Yeah and even that is not a guarantee. St. Denis is so much better with the puck that I'd rather him in an offensive role too.. which is sad for Weber. I still cheer for the guy obviously, but no question, we've gotta upgrade him.

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10-10-2012, 07:51 PM
  #144
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I think Weber is a good player who did not respond well to the uncertainty and rapid changes that coaches demanded of him in Montreal.

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10-10-2012, 08:15 PM
  #145
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Why you bother reading message boards? I'm not even the author of that list!
He must be referring to my list which wasn't a top to bottom thing, it was just a list. It makes little sense to rank them since a lot of them moved up and down the ladder during the year. Weber however was quite clearly not a top6 defensemen at anytime last year, he was probably lower than even Campoli...

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10-11-2012, 01:32 AM
  #146
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He must be referring to my list which wasn't a top to bottom thing, it was just a list. It makes little sense to rank them since a lot of them moved up and down the ladder during the year. Weber however was quite clearly not a top6 defensemen at anytime last year, he was probably lower than even Campoli...
and the last player you thought of while making that list was...

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10-11-2012, 01:33 AM
  #147
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Yeah and even that is not a guarantee. St. Denis is so much better with the puck that I'd rather him in an offensive role too.. which is sad for Weber. I still cheer for the guy obviously, but no question, we've gotta upgrade him.
Yeah, the guy's so good, one has to wonder why he isnt top 4 yet!

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10-11-2012, 01:34 AM
  #148
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Why you bother reading message boards? I'm not even the author of that list!



Well, in terms of "effectiveness and overall usefulness", St-Denis and Weber must be switched, at least, if we give any weight to the advanced stats. Weber basically did everything to make sure he wouldn't play defense last season.

Of course, if Markov or Subban or even Kaberle goes down, the call up would obviously be Weber.

In other words, I took the "terminology" of ECWHSWI, who categorized St-Denis as a 7th D-Men. With the Habs, that "spot" on the depth is occupied by Diaz. Actually, if would be occupied by Bouillon if our 5th D wasn't an offensive-minded D-Men with some serious defensive shortcomings (Kaberle).

Still, I'd be willing to give a chance to Weber at the end of the lockout. He's playing QUITE a lot in Switzerland,with good results, and, who knows, maybe it's only a thing of confidence. IF he wants to come back, that is. We'd have to consider as extremely possible the fact that Weber remains in Europe when the lockout ends, even if it ends this season.
and we'd lose him trough waiver...

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10-11-2012, 08:07 AM
  #149
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and we'd lose him trough waiver...
The same way we could end up losing Diaz, St-Denis.

And in Weber's case, it would be a big surprise to see him get claimed on waivers. I can't name a team on which Weber would be an undisputed Top-6.

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10-12-2012, 01:48 AM
  #150
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The same way we could end up losing Diaz, St-Denis.

And in Weber's case, it would be a big surprise to see him get claimed on waivers. I can't name a team on which Weber would be an undisputed Top-6.
no need to, every team needs D in case of injury. Besides, him playing him in the AHL pretty much guarantees he wont play for the Habs ever, guy is on his last year, at half the price (re-call) pretty sure he gets claimed... at worst, he'll find work on a sucky team next year or go back to Europe. End of the line, we'll lose him for nothing... he'll go at the bottom of a very long list.

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