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Old
10-09-2012, 10:49 PM
  #26
Hugo Sham
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another reason Subban is untouchable is the massive fail in the MacD trade. Bergevin is in no position to trade away great young D men right now. Habs brass would be gun-shy

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10-09-2012, 11:12 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Another thing - three current Islanders are absolutely untouchable, in as much as any player is 'untouchable'. Those three are:
Tavares, Hamonic, Martin
I understand that in the Isles CURRENT situation makes martin untouchable but is he really that necessary a few years down the road?

I mean with a beefed up D
Streit-Hamonic
Subban-Macdonald/Dehaan
Not to mention that beast Carkner they just signed

On offense Nino, Okposo, and Boulton(he's a big dude as far as I know) add grit. There's also some pretty tall prospects that could learn to throw their body around once they mature and fill out. There are also several FA's that could be signed to fill his role that no one but Garth Snow can predict.
Sure Martin led the NHL in hits (a very subjective stat by the way) by a significant amount but I wouldn't say he's untouchable, Important yes, but as untouchable as Tavares? Seems like an awfully big stretch to me.


Last edited by eastonhockey22*: 10-09-2012 at 11:18 PM.
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Old
10-09-2012, 11:32 PM
  #28
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I'd take Reinhart and call it a deal. Subban isn't signing in Montreal anytime soon anyway.

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Old
10-10-2012, 12:07 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakawaka View Post
I understand that in the Isles CURRENT situation makes martin untouchable but is he really that necessary a few years down the road?

I mean with a beefed up D
Streit-Hamonic
Subban-Macdonald/Dehaan
Not to mention that beast Carkner they just signed

On offense Nino, Okposo, and Boulton(he's a big dude as far as I know) add grit. There's also some pretty tall prospects that could learn to throw their body around once they mature and fill out. There are also several FA's that could be signed to fill his role that no one but Garth Snow can predict.
Sure Martin led the NHL in hits (a very subjective stat by the way) by a significant amount but I wouldn't say he's untouchable, Important yes, but as untouchable as Tavares? Seems like an awfully big stretch to me.
With the Isles, you MUST take salary into account. While I agree with others that the proposed deal is around the mark in terms of value, it doesn't make much sense realistically.

As Chapin stated, the 3 most untouchables on the Isles are JT, Hamonic, and Martin. For the money that Hammer and Matty Marts make (Wang LOVES this fact), they are key pieces to the team makeup. While Martin seems to be just a 3rd/4th liner, he brings a lot of other intangibles that make him a fan favorite and a well-liked member of the team. He's a quintessential 'glue guy' as he sticks up for his teammates and he plays the game the right way. He's a homegrown and CHEAP. The same applies to Hamonic who has all the makings of a stalwart on the blue line for a long time.

The Isles committed to a full on rebuild. Their whole system was a mess when they started it. Not much talent on the NHL roster, the AHL roster, and prospects. No premium FA's are going to sign on LI with all the uncertainty surrounding the team so they are going all in with their kids. They kind of have no other choice really. While adding Subban would be great, Snow has shown that he WON'T part with anyone that the organization deems a part of the young core and their premium draft picks. Snow has stocked the cupboard and Wang loves it because he doesn't have to pay them big dollars until much, much later... when things will be settled which centers around a new arena.

The only deals have been of the salary dump variety and they are usually for draft picks as demonstrated by the deals for Vishnovsky and Wisniewski in the past. You could probably count Rolston in there too, but he's the Isles version of Voldemort as he is someone that shall not be named eventhough I already did, haha. That's just the reality of the state of the Isles.

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Old
10-10-2012, 12:09 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
I'd take Reinhart and call it a deal. Subban isn't signing in Montreal anytime soon anyway.
Glad as hell you are not the GM.

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Old
10-10-2012, 12:16 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Glad as hell you are not the GM.
Because Subban would already be signed if I was?

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Old
10-10-2012, 05:45 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Glad as hell you are not the GM.
I would say most Habs fans agree with you.
Imagine willing to trade P.K for Reinhart .
Probably one of those fans that have a few favorite teams.


Last edited by mytor4*: 10-10-2012 at 05:48 AM. Reason: add on
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Old
10-10-2012, 10:15 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Value is solid, my compliments to the OP.

Still wouldn't do it, though. Subban is damn near untouchable.
meh...

it's the proven #1 defensemen (lower end and depending on your version of what a #1 is) for a small-speedy-as-of-now-a-one-year-wonder winger and two good prospects?

edit: martin is not really a prospect anymore but my point stand

i'd rather keep what i got. but good value i'll say that

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Old
10-10-2012, 10:31 AM
  #34
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If subban refuses to sign in Montreal, it's worth looking at.

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Old
10-10-2012, 10:42 AM
  #35
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I'd probably swap out Martin for Nelson. Granted one is proven and the other isn't, I just think the upside Nelson has makes him more valuable and fills more of a need for Montreal than Martin would. It'll give them another center to build around with Galchenyuk, which could make it easier for them to deal Plekanec if it comes down to it.

Reinhart, Grabner and Nelson for Subban. As an Isles fan I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Subban is everything this team could use. Another big, top-pairing defenseman with a RH shot. Provides offense and plays a physical game. IMO he'd be a perfect fit. Even with the loss of Reinhart our defense will still be set going forward with Subban, Hamonic, MacDonald, deHaan and/or Donovan and hopefully Streit(if he wants to re-sign). Then you still have guys like Mayfield, Pokka, Pelech, Pedan, Kichton, and a 1st rounder on the way.

The salary coming back isn't as big of a factor as it might look thanks to Grabner's salary going the other way. His cap hit is $3M, but his salary is $2M this year, and then $3M, $4M and $5M the final year. Chances are whatever contract Subban gets won't exceed that by too much.

Obviously Montreal has no need to trade Subban, even if they decide to clean house at some point, but in the hypothetical HF world of proposals I would make this trade all day long.

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Old
10-10-2012, 11:29 AM
  #36
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I commented above, but I've noticed that I haven't yet seen a post here giving any logical explanation as to why Subban would considered a player who the Islanders would even be interested in?

I know the boy has some goods and some pizazz. And there is of course the connection between him and Tavares on the friend/former teammate front. Still, he's far from a finished product and there are a number of kinks in his overall game that may not be ironed out any time soon, even if the jump in +/- despite a poor team was a good, good sign. In addition, he's not without his maturity issues and degree of general unpopularity around the league outside of Montreal. There's also been little talk here about his current contract situation.

Still, his calling card is that of an offensive-oriented defenseman, something the Isles already have (at least on paper) in Streit and Visnovsky with each of Hamonic and MacDonald showing a tendency to be very good in this capacity in the near future. Then the team was looking into entering the season with one of de Haan, Donovan or Ness (my money was on de Haan) being force-fed (uhhh, Islanderspeak for 'introduced') to the line-up. Regardless of who would make it, they are all three Dmen who are good skaters and move the puck, with Donovan being a guy who is dangerous from the blueline in while Ness and de Haan are the solid first pass types. Then on top of it all, the team not only added Mayfield, Pedan, Russo and Kichton (each offering skills more akin to a puckmoving Dman) to the stable in the '11 draft, but also just took seven(!!!) Dmen in this past draft, no less than three of them also being considered strong in the two-way, puckmoving game (ironically, Pelech was the defensive Dman, yet leads all these picks in points thus far).

Thus, there's truly very, very little reason to think the Isles would have any interest whatsever in moving the types of pieces mentioned by the OP for - a third year offensive RFA Dman who hasn't broken the 40 point barrier and is looking for goodddddd money?

Do Habs fans think he's Drew Doughty or something?

Sorry, but if Montreal is shopping Subban, they need to be looking at Philly or a western conference team. I'm aware that the Isles have some pretty pieces of interest for suitors, but offering a guy like Subban is a mundane proposition in Islanderville.

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Old
10-10-2012, 11:33 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
If subban refuses to sign in Montreal, it's worth looking at.
And his probable trade value likely immediately diminishes...

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10-10-2012, 01:16 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
And his probable trade value likely immediately diminishes...
No it doesn't cause Bergevin would get about 20 calls the 1st day he's available. And Subban said a million times tha he wants to sign a very long term contract to secure his future here. It's just about finding the right numbers that go between his potential, experience and current value.

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10-10-2012, 01:22 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
And his probable trade value likely immediately diminishes...
I think if Subban goes anywhere it will be Toronto or Boston and even if his value diminishes his value will be a lot higher than what you think he's worth.

Other than Tavares, you have some okay players and prospects, just nothing I'm interested in if we're trading Subban.

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10-10-2012, 01:24 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
No it doesn't cause Bergevin would get about 20 calls the 1st day he's available. And Subban said a million times tha he wants to sign a very long term contract to secure his future here. It's just about finding the right numbers that go between his potential, experience and current value.
Of course it does, theres a difference between him becoming available because the Canadiens feel as though they need to retool and trading him because he refuses to sign there. Granted a bidding war would probably regain some, if not all or even more of the value, but he does lose value the moment that happens

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Old
10-10-2012, 01:26 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
No it doesn't cause Bergevin would get about 20 calls the 1st day he's available. And Subban said a million times tha he wants to sign a very long term contract to secure his future here. It's just about finding the right numbers that go between his potential, experience and current value.
And 22 yr old Hamonic, who the isles think is developing into a young stud for them, wouldn't get a ton of interest from around the league?

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10-10-2012, 01:27 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I think if Subban goes anywhere it will be Toronto or Boston and even if his value diminishes his value will be a lot higher than what you think he's worth.

Other than Tavares, you have some okay players and prospects, just nothing I'm interested in if we're trading Subban.
There isn't a player on the Habs roster or prospect in the Habs system, I'd want badly enough, to trade Tavares for.

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10-10-2012, 01:44 PM
  #43
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There isn't a player on the Habs roster or prospect in the Habs system, I'd want badly enough, to trade Tavares for.
That's okay. I'm not a fan of these kind of deals, where you start off with 1 player going to another team and the other team trades back 3 or 4 pieces to make the value even.

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10-10-2012, 04:21 PM
  #44
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And 22 yr old Hamonic, who the isles think is developing into a young stud for them, wouldn't get a ton of interest from around the league?
What's your point?

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Old
10-10-2012, 04:47 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
What's your point?
The poster pointed out that if the Habs shopped Subban, they'd get 20 calls.

I pointed out that 22 yr old Hamonic, would also be highly in demand.

No point in trashtalking each other's youngster.
Isles love how Hamonic is developing and Habs love how Subban is developing.
The majority of fans from each fanbase, wants to keep the youngster they have.

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Old
10-10-2012, 05:10 PM
  #46
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personally if subban was available the only player i would want from NYI would be Hamonic + wich i dont think isles fans would do,truth is has fans we get too attached to our best players to let them go without an overpayment.BTW i have no clue where some of u guys come up with Subban not wanting to sign with the Habs,he wants a longggggggg term contract while MB wanted a 2years contract,its obvious hes gonna re-sign with us,with no cba Bergevin is in no rush to sign him but hes going nowhere hes way too valuable for us on and off the ice to let him go UNLESS of course one team goes bananas and overpays for him

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10-10-2012, 06:01 PM
  #47
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I would rather package subban with desharnais for jamie benn

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Old
10-10-2012, 08:13 PM
  #48
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
No it doesn't cause Bergevin would get about 20 calls the 1st day he's available.
This is very possible. Competition between bidders naturally raises the stock.

However, my statement was in response to someone stating "What if Subban refuses to sign?"

One way or another, if the bidders know that the player refuses to sign with his respective club, that changes the entire landscape of any possible deal.

It certainly puts the dealer between more of a rock and a hard place.

Case in point, Columbus with Rick Nash:
He asked/demanded to be moved. He made it known through the media. Everybody and their mother knew he no longer planned on suiting up for Columbus. The GM was then dealing from a position of weakness. I was actually shocked at how much Columbus got for Nash - while a number of experts felt the Rangers robbed Columbus in that deal.

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Old
10-10-2012, 08:15 PM
  #49
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I think if Subban goes anywhere it will be Toronto or Boston and even if his value diminishes his value will be a lot higher than what you think he's worth.
Wouldn't there be like a riot in Montreal if they dealt him to one of their two biggest rivals???

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10-10-2012, 08:45 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
This is very possible. Competition between bidders naturally raises the stock.

However, my statement was in response to someone stating "What if Subban refuses to sign?"

One way or another, if the bidders know that the player refuses to sign with his respective club, that changes the entire landscape of any possible deal.

It certainly puts the dealer between more of a rock and a hard place.

Case in point, Columbus with Rick Nash:
He asked/demanded to be moved. He made it known through the media. Everybody and their mother knew he no longer planned on suiting up for Columbus. The GM was then dealing from a position of weakness. I was actually shocked at how much Columbus got for Nash - while a number of experts felt the Rangers robbed Columbus in that deal.
The reason Nash got so little was because of his God awful contract and lack of production for that contract.Also there were few teams interrested in Nash.
Yes P.K. value would drop only if a few teams were interrested but if say 10 teams were really interrested in P.K than they alone would drive up P.K's value by trying to outbid each other. PS I believe teams would be lining up to get a shot to get P.K. which would drive his value up up up.

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