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Old
10-09-2012, 06:20 PM
  #26
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Here's the thing.... Brayden Schenn isn't a first line centre no matter how you slice it...

JvR is a big winger with 1st line potential who addresses a need for us immediately.

Furthermore, JvR and L. Schenn were the guys in need of a change of scenery.
Brayden Schenn is also big, and addresses a bigger need and has 1st line potential. The Leafs also need right side defensemen more than left(Gunnarsson, Liles, Gardiner, and possibly Phaneuf if Carlyle gets his way).

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10-09-2012, 06:20 PM
  #27
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Didn't you hear? Everybody with stats like Brayden Schenn is a bust. Probably fat too.

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10-09-2012, 06:53 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
It's debatable.
No, it really isn't - especially when you factor in their contracts.

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10-09-2012, 07:03 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
No, it really isn't - especially when you factor in their contracts.
Kadri = B.Schenn

or is that not true because because?

It's very debatable, to sit there and say it isn't is quite hilarious.

Schenn has proven just as much as Kadri, no more, no less. But B.Schenn is one of the most overrated young players on the planet and Kadri one of the most ridiculed.

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10-09-2012, 07:09 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Brayden Schenn is also big, and addresses a bigger need and has 1st line potential. The Leafs also need right side defensemen more than left(Gunnarsson, Liles, Gardiner, and possibly Phaneuf if Carlyle gets his way).
Sure, but size at centre is nowhere near as important as size on the wing, especially when talking about linemates for Kessel.

Brayden Schenn actually addresses zero needs for the Leafs. They've got plenty of 3rd line centres including one of Tyler Bozak/Tim Connolly, Matt Lombardi, and Jay McClement.

As for the right side / left side crap... most defencemen in the NHL are perfectly capable of playing both without any adverse affects on their game. Yeah, all other things being equal the Leafs would prefer a right shot, but not all other things are equal.

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10-09-2012, 09:42 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
Kadri = B.Schenn

or is that not true because because?

It's very debatable, to sit there and say it isn't is quite hilarious.

Schenn has proven just as much as Kadri, no more, no less. But B.Schenn is one of the most overrated young players on the planet and Kadri one of the most ridiculed.
Impressive anger, but the comparison being quoted was B.Schenn and JvR, not Kadri.

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10-09-2012, 10:16 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
I think the Brayden Schenn phase in Toronto ended with the Luke Schenn era.
Agreed 100% with that comment.

When Luke was still a Maple Leaf obviously a lot of Leafs fans wanted the Leafs to move up and select Brayden because he was his brother and since he's a Centre you can make the arguement he could have been playing on the Leafs today.

However I have long got over the Leafs not being able to draft him or trying to trade for him.

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10-09-2012, 10:17 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishManSam View Post
Kadri = B.Schenn

or is that not true because because?

It's very debatable, to sit there and say it isn't is quite hilarious.

Schenn has proven just as much as Kadri, no more, no less. But B.Schenn is one of the most overrated young players on the planet and Kadri one of the most ridiculed.
Schenn has certainly proven more than Kadri to this point. He played in the NHL on one of the deepest offenses in the league last season while Kadri was producing modestly at the AHL level. He could only crack the Leaf's roster for about twenty games. That's not to say he won't be a good NHL player, but at this point Schenn has proven more.

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Old
10-09-2012, 10:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Sure, but size at centre is nowhere near as important as size on the wing, especially when talking about linemates for Kessel.

Brayden Schenn actually addresses zero needs for the Leafs. They've got plenty of 3rd line centres including one of Tyler Bozak/Tim Connolly, Matt Lombardi, and Jay McClement.

As for the right side / left side crap... most defencemen in the NHL are perfectly capable of playing both without any adverse affects on their game. Yeah, all other things being equal the Leafs would prefer a right shot, but not all other things are equal.
This is why Leafs fans get a bad rep around here. Schenn addresses zero Leaf needs? Well then, they must be the only team in the league that has no need for a potential top six center who's game has been compared to some of the great two way players in the game.

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10-09-2012, 10:51 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
This is why Leafs fans get a bad rep around here. Schenn addresses zero Leaf needs? Well then, they must be the only team in the league that has no need for a potential top six center who's game has been compared to some of the great two way players in the game.
Actually, there are many teams with no need for a potential top 6 centre... Toronto's one of them. They have Grabovski signed long term, Bozak, Colborne, and McKegg. Nice to have Schenn? Sure, need? not at all.

Furthermore, what a team like Toronto needs is to eradicate the culture of losing. When you've got as much depth as the Leafs have, you don't eradicate the culture of losing by adding a guy who scored less than 20 points in over 50 games last year.... no matter where he was drafted. In the case of Toronto, you do so by converting some of that depth into a top line centre, or transitioning middle-of-the-lineup depth on the wing (strong point) to middle-of-the-lineup depth on the blueline (weak point), or acquiring an upgrade in goal. You don't trade for another depth forward.

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Old
10-09-2012, 10:55 PM
  #36
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This thread is full of win.

Philly gave up on jvr and Toronto on schenn, now both sides take them back and on top of that also switch top prospects who the teams are very happy with

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Old
10-09-2012, 11:01 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Actually, there are many teams with no need for a potential top 6 centre... Toronto's one of them. They have Grabovski signed long term, Bozak, Colborne, and McKegg. Nice to have Schenn? Sure, need? not at all.

Furthermore, what a team like Toronto needs is to eradicate the culture of losing. When you've got as much depth as the Leafs have, you don't eradicate the culture of losing by adding a guy who scored less than 20 points in over 50 games last year.... no matter where he was drafted. In the case of Toronto, you do so by converting some of that depth into a top line centre, or transitioning middle-of-the-lineup depth on the wing (strong point) to middle-of-the-lineup depth on the blueline (weak point), or acquiring an upgrade in goal. You don't trade for another depth forward.
Schenn projects to be a better player than all four of them with the only slight exception being Grabovski. But hey, I'm sure the spectacular center depth of Grabovski, Bozak, Colborne, and McKegg will be more than enough for you guys.

Schenn is a depth forward? He'll continue the losing culture? It's one thing to say Schenn doesn't fit on the roster according to your plan on how to run the Leafs, but now your stretching it when talking about his ability. Most would agree that Schenn is far more likely to become at least a number two center capable of near ppg numbers with excellent physical and two-way play. To each his own I suppose.

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:23 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Schenn projects to be a better player than all four of them with the only slight exception being Grabovski. But hey, I'm sure the spectacular center depth of Grabovski, Bozak, Colborne, and McKegg will be more than enough for you guys.

Schenn is a depth forward? He'll continue the losing culture? It's one thing to say Schenn doesn't fit on the roster according to your plan on how to run the Leafs, but now your stretching it when talking about his ability. Most would agree that Schenn is far more likely to become at least a number two center capable of near ppg numbers with excellent physical and two-way play. To each his own I suppose.
What Schenn "projects" to be is irrelevant, because he's not a lock to be a top line guy... he's another depth guy that doesn't solve our need -- which is a top line C. Beyond that need, Toronto is absolutely fine at centre. Grabo's got a long term deal and he's an excellent #2 C. Filling the #3 gap is really not a big deal.

What Toronto needs is to eradicate their culture of losing now. Brayden Schenn isn't going to help in doing that. As I mentioned, he's a depth forward that the Leafs have plenty of. He's just good enough at this point in his career.

Potential? Sure, but potential doesn't win you hockey games. Yeah, you can take the approach that having another centre allows you to make a trade to get a top liner, and if that's the case, maybe there's a 3-way deal to be had. However, you don't make a deal like this solely in hopes that it sets you up for a completely unknown trade down the road... especially when you're not in a position to make use of the player you're getting.

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Old
10-10-2012, 08:33 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Rielly has the value of a top 5 pick, and currently only Kessel is worth more than that... Its not too much of a stretch to call him one of the top 5 most valueable players on the leafs.
Yes it is, since he has not yet made the NHL roster (albeit, there is a lockout). To call him one of their top 5 (in fact, top 1) prospects is absolutely fair and accurate. To call him one of their top 5 assets, sure. To call him one of their top 5 players when no one knows for sure that he will even make the NHL doesn't make sense.

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10-10-2012, 08:35 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What Schenn "projects" to be is irrelevant, because he's not a lock to be a top line guy... he's another depth guy that doesn't solve our need -- which is a top line C. Beyond that need, Toronto is absolutely fine at centre. Grabo's got a long term deal and he's an excellent #2 C. Filling the #3 gap is really not a big deal.

What Toronto needs is to eradicate their culture of losing now. Brayden Schenn isn't going to help in doing that. As I mentioned, he's a depth forward that the Leafs have plenty of. He's just good enough at this point in his career.

Potential? Sure, but potential doesn't win you hockey games. Yeah, you can take the approach that having another centre allows you to make a trade to get a top liner, and if that's the case, maybe there's a 3-way deal to be had. However, you don't make a deal like this solely in hopes that it sets you up for a completely unknown trade down the road... especially when you're not in a position to make use of the player you're getting.
sums it up. I like Schenn, but the fact is that with the scoring depth and defencemen coming through the ranks, we need to address the dire needs which are a bonfire 1C, shutdown dman and starting goalie.

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Old
10-10-2012, 08:56 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
I think the Brayden Schenn phase in Toronto ended with the Luke Schenn era.

Not to put down Brayden in any way, but he hasn't proven nearly enough for the Leafs to give up Jake Gardiner for him. In truth, I don't think a single Leaf fan would touch this deal. In fact, Gardiner has outscored Schenn in their short NHL careers to date.

Gardiner is probably top-5 most valuable player on the Leafs currently with Kessel, Phaneuf, and Reilly. He's not going to be traded unless something significant is coming back. While that may not seem fair to most teams, it's the situation the Toronto Maple Leafs are in. We don't have the luxury of trading assets like Jake unless we're getting a surefire #1 C back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Yes it is, since he has not yet made the NHL roster (albeit, there is a lockout). To call him one of their top 5 (in fact, top 1) prospects is absolutely fair and accurate. To call him one of their top 5 assets, sure. To call him one of their top 5 players when no one knows for sure that he will even make the NHL doesn't make sense.

Given the context, it's pretty obvious that he's talking about trade value and not actually calling him one of their top 5 players.

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10-10-2012, 09:08 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Here's the thing.... Brayden Schenn isn't a first line centre no matter how you slice it...

JvR is a big winger with 1st line potential who addresses a need for us immediately.
Wait, JVR has first line potential, but Brayden Schenn doesn't. I would love to hear the statistical analysis for this....

Reality check: Both players have a ton of potential and certainly enough to qualify as first line type players. Both haven't shown it at the NHL level with the exception of JVR's playoffs in 2011 and Schenn's playoffs in 2012.

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10-10-2012, 09:25 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Wait, JVR has first line potential, but Brayden Schenn doesn't. I would love to hear the statistical analysis for this....

Reality check: Both players have a ton of potential and certainly enough to qualify as first line type players. Both haven't shown it at the NHL level with the exception of JVR's playoffs in 2011 and Schenn's playoffs in 2012.
I agree with this 100%. I don't understand how someone could say JVR fills a bigger need for the Leafs than Schenn.

Their top-6 would either be:

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kulemin

or

Lupul-Schenn-Kessel
MacA/Kadri-Grabovski-Kulemin

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10-10-2012, 09:33 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I agree with this 100%. I don't understand how someone could say JVR fills a bigger need for the Leafs than Schenn.

Their top-6 would either be:

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kulemin

or

Lupul-Schenn-Kessel
MacA/Kadri-Grabovski-Kulemin
In terms of development, I think JVR is closer to being a first line winger than Schenn is being a first line center.

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10-10-2012, 09:40 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
In terms of development, I think JVR is closer to being a first line winger than Schenn is being a first line center.
But the Leafs don't have any potential or actual 1st line centres, and they already have 2 1st line wingers.

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10-10-2012, 09:52 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
But the Leafs don't have any potential or actual 1st line centres, and they already have 2 1st line wingers.

Are you talking about this season? I think Schenn is at least a couple years away from a #1 center job, even in Toronto.

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10-10-2012, 10:06 AM
  #47
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Are you talking about this season? I think Schenn is at least a couple years away from a #1 center job, even in Toronto.
I'm talking about in general, there's no one in the Leafs system who has the potential to be a #1C.

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10-10-2012, 10:08 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
In terms of development, I think JVR is closer to being a first line winger than Schenn is being a first line center.
Out of curiousity (and let me establish that I like both players and their potential), where do you get the impression that JVR is farther along in progression than Schenn?

Yes, JVR is older and has more NHL experience, but neither player has shown nearly the consistency necessary to be a true 1st line player unless they're simply thrown there undeservedly in an effort to expedite their development or however you want to couch it.

Schenn has assets (i.e., boardwork, toughness, consistent aggressiveness) which also add value to a line and I personally don't know that Schenn would look any more out of place on a 1st line with Giroux and Hartnell than JVR would in TOR or did at the start of last season when he was mediocre playing a wing with Giroux and Jagr.

Both players are second line caliber going into this season.

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10-10-2012, 10:20 AM
  #49
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Out of curiousity (and let me establish that I like both players and their potential), where do you get the impression that JVR is farther along in progression than Schenn?

Yes, JVR is older and has more NHL experience, but neither player has shown nearly the consistency necessary to be a true 1st line player unless they're simply thrown there undeservedly in an effort to expedite their development or however you want to couch it.

Schenn has assets (i.e., boardwork, toughness, consistent aggressiveness) which also add value to a line and I personally don't know that Schenn would look any more out of place on a 1st line with Giroux and Hartnell than JVR would in TOR or did at the start of last season when he was mediocre playing a wing with Giroux and Jagr.

Both players are second line caliber going into this season.

Well as you said, JVR is older and has more NHL experience...NHL experience does count for something imho. Then there is that 21 goal season that JVR had at the age of 21 (I think)...that should count for something as well.

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Old
10-10-2012, 10:31 AM
  #50
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Sorry Philly fans, if we're stuck with Fat Kadri our fat player quota is filled. Wait we also have Fat Kessel...hmm

Well doesn't matter, no room for Fat Schenn anymore

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