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The Lockout Thread Part I

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Old
10-10-2012, 01:08 PM
  #526
blahblah
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Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
You can argue that the WRONG changes are being made. That is perfectly fine. You can argue that the changes you want aren't being made, that is also fine. But to argue that NO changes are being made is completely myopic and ignoring the larger picture.
I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill, on top of completely misreading what is being typed. There has been one change at the GM level and one at the presidents level in the history of this org. People are focusing on the decision makers, where the ultimate accountability is held. Pissing on the scouts doesn't do much good if the GM isn't listening to them, for example (not to say if that is or isn't the case with this org).

From what I can tell, you were the one that decided to be a bit anal-retentive over the wording and include far more than what I think Lee ever intended to bring into the conversation. It's fairly obvious from his reply.

Howson has arguably done more than Dougie, however that hasn't translated to results on the ice. Priest can't even claim that, he has done little to further what Dougie started. At best, and that is hard to defend, he has maintained the status quo.

Once again, neither had done much to justify their continue employment. Thus that is a source of frustration. I don't see many, if anyone, all that concerned about Richards coming back for example.

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I'm asking posters to think. There isn't any hockey to watch, we have plenty of time for it.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've thought about the situation long and hard many times over the years. I don't need a lock out for that.

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Old
10-10-2012, 01:13 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I don't need a lock out for that.
Speaking of which...

*looks at thread title*

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Old
10-10-2012, 01:27 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Speaking of which...

*looks at thread title*
I tried.

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This is the lockout thread, however. Davidson would be a nice start to change during the lockout. That is the kind of change that Lee is probably looking for. Let him figure out if Howson is worth saving.
Having said that, there are like two active threads with like 4 posts a day (only a slight exaggeration)... Not sure I'm going to open a new one for this exchange... :p

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10-10-2012, 01:30 PM
  #529
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Having said that, there are like two active threads with like 4 posts a day (only a slight exaggeration)... Not sure I'm going to open a new one for this exchange... :p
Understood.

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10-10-2012, 02:50 PM
  #530
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This link from PuckDaddy expresses some thoughts I've had regarding how the players will perceive the owners and the league should they be forced to accept salary rollbacks, an extended lockout, and some of the other more onerous demands the league has proposed:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...4521--nhl.html

Ultimately, he feels that the caliber of young man playing hockey won't take his hard feelings out on local charities, but it might impact league events, such as the ASG.

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Old
10-10-2012, 03:05 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Speaking of which...

*looks at thread title*
Sorry, didn't mean to derail, but I like Lee too much to let that slide. I just want people to mean what they say. Yeah I resorted to snarky hyperbole to do it, maybe it's my frustration of the lockout, maybe it's the frustration of too many years arguing with the same people, over the same things, but for me the the line was beginning to blur for me between Blue Jackets fans and Red Wings Fans.

I grew up a Wings fan in the 80's. I used to dial in to a few BBS's in the 313 area code just chat with other Wings fans, at least until my parents got the phone bill. That continued in the 90's with Usenet posts and mailing lists. In 94, I hand coded one of the first Wings News sites (a blog if you will). I was on at least 4 Wings mailing lists, and had a script which would auto-subscribe to another team's mailing list a few days before a game with them, then auto-unsubscribe to them a few days later after I had gloatingly read all their emails after they had been beaten by the Wings.

I got caught up in all the memes. I got swept up in the Trade Yzerman threads when he went from a floating scoring machine, to an all around player, the Fire Scotty Bowman bandwagon after the Wings were swept in the first round by the Sharks, and thought the Left Wing Lock was stifling Fedorov. I photoshopped images of Mike Vernon with an aircraft carrier going between his legs. (Mason High Glove had nothing on the Vernon 5 hole meme) I participated in email threads with over 100 messages in it, complaining about the defense and goaltending after a 5-3 win.

When the Wings won the cup in 97, I took a step back, and looked at a lot of the things I had posted, and just how wrong I had been on so many issues. I seemed to be the only one though as email threads still kept appearing in the 97-98 season which began "I know Scotty Bowman just won the cup, but is he past it?" This was fed by a constant feed of new bandwaggoneers. By the time the cup was awarded in 98, I was happy that the Wings had won it for Vlad, but was so burnt out on the fans, I had quit following most of the games, and unsubscribed to all the mailing lists and early message boards.

I moved to California, designed video games for a couple years, and completely ignored all sports. When I came back, and Ohio had a team I started following the Jackets. I was still soured on the Wings fans. For me they had become a group of spoiled entitled fans who had one of the best teams in the league, and didn't know how to enjoy it.

I guess this experience is why I have a hard time going along with the groupthink here. Weather it is firing the scapegoat of the week, Fat Nash, Turnover Tyutin, or Cap'n Hook I've seen too many of these message boards just become echo chambers. Someone sees something, good or bad, and everyone else then is looking for that, and notice it when it happens again.

Lee is right, I am living in an alternate reality. I guess somehow I expected more of Jackets fans. I expected us to be above it. I keep fighting to preventing it from happening. But I'm fighting human nature. It's a losing battle, but one I keep fighting because I don't want to become as burned out with Jackets fans as I am with Wings fans. That's why I'm always challenging people. I guess I do it because I'm holding on to the belief that your better than those up north.

Yeah, I've further derailed (and taken a couple of hours to do it)

sorry.

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Old
10-10-2012, 04:59 PM
  #532
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You're arguing from a Red Wings / CBJ perspective, Skraut. But you have to understand that many people are seeing things from a Browns / CBJ / Cavs / Reds / Bengals perspective of perpetual suckitude.

For teams like the Browns and the Jackets, the problems and lack of winning are so repetitive, so ubiquitous, that the problem has to lie with ownership. So when I (or I think many fans) say that there isn't enough change, that is often what they are alluding to. There is the belief that, while McConnell, Priest, and Howson are the primary factors in decision making, this team will simply not win. Say what you will, but the data seems to indicate that such a view isn't entirely far fetched.

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:05 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
Funny, In my reality the Blue Jackets list those names on their "Front Office" Staff directory...
http://bluejackets.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=48283

how does it work in yours?
OK Tom, you got me on a technicality, but it's not like you to be a big meany jerkface about it.
(Do most fans really consider Bill Davidge and the ice maker as the front office?)

Please allow me to clarify my remarks. I was meaning, as most people here seemed to understand, everyone with a Vice President's title on up. Funny how those names rarely seem to change despite the lack of success this organization has had for 12 years. This is what is killing me.

And since you brought up Detroit, until recently, I've empathized with Lions fans because yeah, Matt Millen WAS part of the problem - and was allowed to CONTINUE being part of the problem for far too long by those above him.

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Old
10-10-2012, 08:11 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
You're arguing from a Red Wings / CBJ perspective, Skraut. But you have to understand that many people are seeing things from a Browns / CBJ / Cavs / Reds / Bengals perspective of perpetual suckitude.

For teams like the Browns and the Jackets, the problems and lack of winning are so repetitive, so ubiquitous, that the problem has to lie with ownership. So when I (or I think many fans) say that there isn't enough change, that is often what they are alluding to. There is the belief that, while McConnell, Priest, and Howson are the primary factors in decision making, this team will simply not win. Say what you will, but the data seems to indicate that such a view isn't entirely far fetched.
Oh I get it now! The Jackets would be better if we changed Presidents! Why didn't somebody say this before. Why one only has to look at the fine example provided by the Cleveland Browns to see what a difference changing the president of the team makes. They've done it 5 times since 2000, and just look how it has propelled them to greatness.

And look what a difference changing a general manager makes. Why does my computer keep giving me a "Divide by zero" error when I try and figure out how many playoff wins each of the 5 Browns general managers are responsible for?

I think I know what the problem with the Browns are though. They've only changed Head Coaches the second most often of any pro team in Ohio. If only they'd change it a few more times, they'd go from being the worst team in the NFL to being the worst team in the NHL.

Seriously though, I think it is BECAUSE I am a Browns fan, that I want consistency in the Jackets Front Office. Anything to NOT be like them.

I guess I just want our team to be more like the Predators and less like the Browns, Indians, and Cavs. Why is this so wrong? The only "Change" this team hasn't tried yet is not changing.

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10-10-2012, 08:21 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
OK Tom, you got me on a technicality, but it's not like you to be a big meany jerkface about it.
(Do most fans really consider Bill Davidge and the ice maker as the front office?)

Please allow me to clarify my remarks. I was meaning, as most people here seemed to understand, everyone with a Vice President's title on up. Funny how those names rarely seem to change despite the lack of success this organization has had for 12 years. This is what is killing me.
No, but I do consider the coaching staff and the scouts part of the front office. Together with the general manager they're responsible for who is on the team and how they perform.

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10-10-2012, 10:08 PM
  #536
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No, but I do consider the coaching staff and the scouts part of the front office. Together with the general manager they're responsible for who is on the team and how they perform.
I never have. But based on your link, maybe I should have.

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Old
10-10-2012, 10:35 PM
  #537
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Heard something on XM NHL Radio today. Discussion was on realignment, and the 14-16 team conferences as a prelude to expansion. What was inferred was that expansion fees would generate up to $500 million per team in revenue and that money would all be divided by owners, and would not be included as part of HRR, therefore the players get nothing. At the end of the day, it complicates the discussion of what is and what is not part of HRR, and even if included in HRR< there is no way the owners will concede 54-57% of that kind of money.

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Old
10-10-2012, 11:42 PM
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
...

Lee is right, I am living in an alternate reality. I guess somehow I expected more of Jackets fans. I expected us to be above it. I keep fighting to preventing it from happening. But I'm fighting human nature. It's a losing battle, but one I keep fighting because I don't want to become as burned out with Jackets fans as I am with Wings fans. That's why I'm always challenging people. I guess I do it because I'm holding on to the belief that your better than those up north.

Yeah, I've further derailed (and taken a couple of hours to do it)

sorry.
I can share a similar story, and perhaps it's why I tend to end up on the opposite side of most arguments. I don't regard myself as better or smarter than the average fan (and I'm sure you don't either), but certainly in possession of a greater sense of perspective. Seriously, my attitude today compared to 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, is entirely different.

And if you're looking for level-headed sanity, there's always me and Viqsi.

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Old
10-11-2012, 12:56 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Skraut View Post
Oh I get it now! The Jackets would be better if we changed Presidents! Why didn't somebody say this before. Why one only has to look at the fine example provided by the Cleveland Browns to see what a difference changing the president of the team makes. They've done it 5 times since 2000, and just look how it has propelled them to greatness.
...
I guess I just want our team to be more like the Predators and less like the Browns, Indians, and Cavs. Why is this so wrong? The only "Change" this team hasn't tried yet is not changing.
You completely missed my point Skraut.

No, I'm not talking about changing presidents directly. Hence why I pointed out the Cleveland Browns. They continue to have problems because they don't change the one constant in the whole situation -- boneheaded ownership. Stupid owners hire stupid presidents who then hire stupid GM's who then hire stupid coaches.

I'm talking about changing OWNERS. Or at least improving how good they are at running a team. Until McConnell is replaced by someone who can and has successfully owned/managed a pro sports team in the past, or maybe gets lucky and hires a competent advisor, we're going to be stuck in the same quagmire.

The sad part is, he's the only person in Columbus who is capable and willing to own an NHL team here.


Last edited by Crede777: 10-11-2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old
10-11-2012, 01:33 AM
  #540
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You completely missed my point Skraut.

No, I'm not talking about changing presidents directly. Hence why I pointed out the Cleveland Browns. They continue to have problems because they don't change the one constant in the whole situation -- boneheaded ownership. Stupid owners hire stupid presidents who then hire stupid GM's who then hire stupid coaches.

I'm talking about changing OWNERS. Or at least improving how good they are at running a team. Until McConnell is replaced by someone who can and has successfully owned/managed a pro sports team in the past, or maybe gets lucky and hires a competent advisor, we're going to be stuck in the same quagmire.

The sad part is, he's the only person in Columbus who is capable and willing to own an NHL team here.
Two more weeks until the Powerball and/or Mega Millions jackpot gets large enough for me to change that...

(Take a minute to think about that. Feel free to shudder; I can't see it through a computer.)

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10-11-2012, 01:50 AM
  #541
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................. I am a Browns fan..............
This pretty much explains you to me.

Now go play with your baby.

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10-11-2012, 09:08 AM
  #542
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Today was supposed to be opening day

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10-11-2012, 09:45 AM
  #543
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Today was supposed to be opening day
Yep. I've got the CBJ schedule merged with my Google calender, and now every time I open it, all I see are blue blocks representing games that will not be played. I'm going to have to unmerge their schedule just so it doesn't put a gray cloud over the whole day.

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10-11-2012, 10:43 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
No, I'm not talking about changing presidents directly. Hence why I pointed out the Cleveland Browns. They continue to have problems because they don't change the one constant in the whole situation -- boneheaded ownership. Stupid owners hire stupid presidents who then hire stupid GM's who then hire stupid coaches.
You do know the Browns all but have a new owner who is expected to be approved by the NFL sometime this month, right? He's already paid for a large portion of the team and the approval is apparently just a formality.

We'll see how it goes and who he cans. I wouldn't be surprised to see a whole new regime in there. Hard to say whether that's good or bad. I was on board with the way things were progressing until this most recent draft, which I think they messed up quite horribly. Shurmur also seems to make questionable decisions as a head coach.

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Old
10-12-2012, 08:51 PM
  #545
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We're still undefeated!

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Old
10-12-2012, 11:38 PM
  #546
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We're still undefeated!
And Mason has yet to give up a goal

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10-13-2012, 12:59 PM
  #547
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I wonder if Mason is going to the Marc Denis school of sit-at-home-during-the-lockout-and-practice-with-lasers...

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Old
10-15-2012, 01:18 PM
  #548
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Random lockout thoughts from B-Mac.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=407263

Quote:
The truth is, these negotiations haven't even started yet. Not really, not in any meaningful way. We've had proposal(s) from both sides but no actual negotiating on the core economic issues. In the meantime, everyone from Wayne Gretzky to Sidney Crosby have proclaimed they don't believe the entire season will be lost to this labor dispute. Well, 99 and Sid either know something we don't, are just expressing wishful thinking or they're simply applying logic that a game and industry that isn't broken like it was in 2004 couldn't possibly be self-destructive enough to lose another season.

I mean, it couldn't, could it?

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10-15-2012, 02:11 PM
  #549
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I was thisclose to having to drop my cable and was thinking that in that case I'd be fine with a full season lockout - wouldn't be able to watch on TV anyway. Well now I don't have to so I'm back to being pissed about the possibility of a full season lost.

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10-15-2012, 08:17 PM
  #550
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The NHL hired Republican market research strategist and Fox News contributor Frank Luntz to craft their message. Read about Shared Sacrifice.

http://deadspin.com/5951872?utm_camp...ium=socialflow

Also, Frank Luntz has responded.
https://twitter.com/FrankLuntz/statu...956865/photo/1

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