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Is it realistic to trade Grabo and make room for our prospects?

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Old
10-10-2012, 11:36 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Here is your quote:



Let's do this again, what specifically did we make up to show Grabo isn't that good? Show us the factual errors I assume you are suggesting we made.

NO eveidence to dispute but you'll argue the particulars of a comment perhaps made in the heat of the moment.


Just what the heck do you want to do with Grabo anyway?

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10-10-2012, 11:38 PM
  #402
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Guys. Stop arguing with these known trolls. It gets you nowhere.

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10-10-2012, 11:39 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
Grabo gets credit because he is consistent. His career high is, up to this point, within 8% of his career average. His whole line had career years, at that point one could understand the argument that Kulemin was largely responsible. The proceeding season disproved this definitively, Kulemin fell off a cliff and the other two did not (Grabovski staying within 2 points of his career pace).



Kessel-Bozak-Various scrubs = ~60 something points for kessel

Kessel-Bozak-Lupul = PPG for both Kessel and Lupul

One of these seasons is not like the others. Hint: it might have had something to do with that Lupul guy.
Did you account the 2 slumps Grabo had last year when you said he was consistent. He went a stretch of 1 goal in 15 games last year, is this the consistent standard you set for players?

There can be a case Grabo fell off when Kule went down, how else do you explain Grabo's lacklustre finish to the season. Kule may have fell off in goals, but he was solid defensively all year, and Grabo certainly was better when he was in the lineup.

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10-10-2012, 11:40 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Here is your quote:



Let's do this again, what specifically did we make up to show Grabo isn't that good?
First of all, that quote was about things you were fabricating about OTHER people's arguments for Grabovski. Notably that people were trying to present him as a #1 center, and that I was ignoring his actual statistics, making him out to be a 60 point player.

1) That he was not the playmaker responsible for his entire line having career years.

2) That Bozak is a more valuable player to the Leafs than Grabovski
2b) That this is in part because Bozak is doing for Kessel exactly what you erroneously claimed that Grabovski was not doing for Kulemin

3) That Grabovski is a puck hog
3b) That this is the reason that Grabovski doesnt play with Kessel, and could not theoretically play well on a line with Kessel

4) One of the other clowns actually said Grabovski over-shoots and sucks at faceoffs.

I could go on, but I won't bother. Nobody's trying to make Grabovski out to be a star. He's being compared mostly to Kulemin, a guy who averages 40-something points per 82 games so far. You three on the other hand ARE making Bozak out to be a number one center. Everybody else knows he's not.

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10-10-2012, 11:42 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I disagree with you on this, and pretty sure facts would support me. Regardless, that isn't what you stated. He is, in fact a second line center. On this team, he is in fact the best center at this point in time.
What facts? He has never been a part of a winning team, you can speculate he would be, but there is no way I am putting him ahead of Mike Richards, Bergeron, Sharp, Zetterburg, Malkin, Kesler, you get the picture at this point.

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10-10-2012, 11:46 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
What facts? He has never been a part of a winning team, you can speculate he would be, but there is no way I am putting him ahead of Mike Richards, Bergeron, Sharp, Zetterburg, Malkin, Kesler, you get the picture at this point.
I don't have to speculate, he already is a 2c, and the best c o this team. Team winning percentage has nothing to do with it.

Next.

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10-10-2012, 11:46 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Obviously he is on this team, he isn't on the better teams.
What better teams?

Pittsburgh and Los Angeles?

Detroit? Where would he fit in in Nashville?

Before WAS got Ribeiro I think Grabo would be there.

He is a #2. Maybe not a top one but he could be the #2 on a champion if his LIne mates were better than him.

A wet dream would be a Roberts(Kule) - Grabo - Mogilny(Kadri/Frattin) #2nd line and a Lupul - Sundin(???) - Kessel 1st line.

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10-10-2012, 11:50 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
What better teams?

Pittsburgh and Los Angeles?

Detroit? Where would he fit in in Nashville?

Before WAS got Ribeiro I think Grabo would be there.

He is a #2. Maybe not a top one but he could be the #2 on a champion if his LIne mates were better than him.

A wet dream would be a Roberts(Kule) - Grabo - Mogilny(Kadri/Frattin) #2nd line and a Lupul - Sundin(???) - Kessel 1st line.
My thoughts exactly. Would live to see a list of at least 30 centers better than Grabovski at this moment in time.

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10-10-2012, 11:51 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Guys. Stop arguing with these known trolls. It gets you nowhere.
I don't spend enough time on here to know who all the known trolls are I just know that Zeke is an unrepentant ultra-homer and that Dubey likes to try and make Leafs fans look like...well, like Zeke.

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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Did you account the 2 slumps Grabo had last year when you said he was consistent. He went a stretch of 1 goal in 15 games last year, is this the consistent standard you set for players?

There can be a case Grabo fell off when Kule went down, how else do you explain Grabo's lacklustre finish to the season. Kule may have fell off in goals, but he was solid defensively all year, and Grabo certainly was better when he was in the lineup.
1 goal in 15 games is not unusual for players scoring in the 20-30 range. You may recall Kessel going through several 10+ game scoring droughts, and he's a much better scorer than Grabovski. We still describe Kessel as 'consistent' despite his long cold streaks. We describe him as such because by the end of the seasons he's always scored over a 30 goal pace. And by the end of the season Grabovski has always scored over a 50 point pace. Consistent. Get it?

Of course Kulemin brings defensive responsibility to whatever line. Once again you argue against a point nobody ever made. He was a black hole of suckage in the offensive zone. One has to imagine with the numbers Grabovski and Macarthur managed despite him that if Kulemin played like he did the previous season, the other two would have handily surpassed their previous numbers.

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10-10-2012, 11:57 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
What facts? He has never been a part of a winning team, you can speculate he would be, but there is no way I am putting him ahead of Mike Richards, Bergeron, Sharp, Zetterburg, Malkin, Kesler, you get the picture at this point.
Bozak hasn't been part of a winning team, either. But he's always centered the best winger on the team.



Why would Grabovski have to be better than those players to be considered a #2 center? Again you fail to make any sense.

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10-11-2012, 12:03 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
First of all, that quote was about things you were fabricating about OTHER people's arguments for Grabovski. Notably that people were trying to present him as a #1 center, and that I was ignoring his actual statistics, making him out to be a 60 point player.
That's a matter of opinion, have you read how over the top you go out of your way to make Grabo more than he is? It would be logical for someone to say you are trying to make him more than what he is.

Secondly, you inferred people were calling Grabo a 58 pts center to denigrate him and we should just say 60, this is not true, where is the unfactual part of this statement?

Quote:
1) That he was not the playmaker responsible for his entire line having career years
.

Are other people not allowed to state an opinion, his career high is 29 assists. Certainly nothing prolific or unfactual about this. It does reflect how mediocre he is as a playmaker.

Quote:
2) That Bozak is a more valuable player to the Leafs than Grabovski
When it came to last year, maybe, Bozak had a very good bouceback year, and he was the only center that was able to get the best out of our 2 best fwds. Nothing outrageous about this.

Quote:
2b) That this is in part because Bozak is doing for Kessel exactly what you erroneously claimed that Grabovski was not doing for Kulemin
Kessel had a career year playing with an improved Bozak and Lupul. The Kule line struggled, if anything the whole line was not as good the year before, collective failure. Grabo as center does bare more responsibility as puck distributer. But I am willing to concede it had more to do with all 3 and the league not being surprised by them, fair enough?

Quote:
3) That Grabovski is a puck hog
He does overhandle the puck, how many times have we seen him circle the zone passing up chances to shoot or hesitating on making a pass. He doesn't possess top flight hockey sense, this has always been his challenge.

Quote:
3b) That this is the reason that Grabovski doesnt play with Kessel, and could not theoretically play well on a line with Kessel
Again he overhandles the puck, he needs the puck, so he would be in conflict with Phil who is much more creative and he sees the ice well. Phil would not be as good with Grabo, it seems Wilson and Carlyle agree.

Quote:
4) One of the other clowns actually said Grabovski over-shoots and sucks at faceoffs.
Grabo is not out for key faceoffs, if you watch the leafs it is usually Bozak or Steckel, his stats are inflated by going against not the top face off men in the league. If he was good at faceoffs don't you think Wilson would use him?

Quote:
I could go on, but I won't bother. Nobody's trying to make Grabovski out to be a star. He's being compared mostly to Kulemin, a guy who averages 40-something points per 82 games so far. You three on the other hand ARE making Bozak out to be a number one center. Everybody else knows he's not.
Grabo is being compared to other #2C's as he should be, he is not nothing to write home about, I don't understand why you are trying to make him out for more than he is, you quoted his stats, he is a 53 pt center, again closer to 53 than 58 or 60. No one is denigrating that stat, it is a fact. Why get upset about it when it is a number you agreed on.

So where is all this stuff we unfactually made up I ask?


Last edited by Interactif: 10-11-2012 at 12:11 AM. Reason: Added comment
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10-11-2012, 12:04 AM
  #412
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I don't spend enough time on here to know who all the known trolls are
Let's just say that the 2nd part of this post I am quoting (and your next post) is doing what you should not be doing, unless you want to go insane.

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10-11-2012, 12:05 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I don't have to speculate, he already is a 2c, and the best c o this team. Team winning percentage has nothing to do with it.

Next.
Winning has nothing to do with the quality of players you put on the ice, period? And I thought we were in the business of trying to win.

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10-11-2012, 12:12 AM
  #414
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
And we know this because....? Because you decided it's true?

We've never seen what Grabovski would do on anything but the second line. We've seen what Bozak can do with first line PP minutes and centering not one but two PPG players...and that was still fewer assists than Grabovski got playing with a mentally retarded Kulemin.
In his short time with the Leafs, we've seen Bozak play beside 3/4 of our forward crew in all positions but #4C, and has managed to handle himself just fine. He can toss his weight around when needs he needs to, is willing to take the hacks and slashes in front of the net, has good defensive awareness, good on the faceoffs, and is a decent playmaker. He's a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none (versus the jack of one trade, master of none).

There were a lot of suitors for that #1C position, as we seem to have no shortage of average centers, so Bozak didn't exactly get the job by default. How did Tin Man do with those PPG wingers while Bozak was out nursing the wrist injury?

Bozak's role is a lot different when playing between Lupul and Kessel than Grabo's role. He has to try to be the defensive anchor of the line against very though matchups night in and night out (a bit like the Kulemin of the Kessel line). He can't afford to go balls out offense like Grabo can, because if he gets caught out of position, chances are, noone's covering for him. As much as playing between two PPG players may help to pad his point totals, I believe his current role also holds back his personal offensive game's development.

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10-11-2012, 12:16 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Guys. Stop arguing with these known trolls. It gets you nowhere.
However strange it may sound, having different opinions from yours does not make one a troll. It'd be an awfully boring world if everyone had the same opinions.

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10-11-2012, 12:22 AM
  #416
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However strange it may sound, having different opinions from yours does not make one a troll. It'd be an awfully boring world if everyone had the same opinions.
I agree, different opinions do not make a troll. Unfortunately, it is not about having and believing "different opinions" for two individuals in this thread. And I'm sure you know that.

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10-11-2012, 12:46 AM
  #417
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This thread is baffling. I must be watching a different Grabovski than some of these guys. Trading him would be a monumental mistake. I really don't need to hear any facts ****. I watch every leafs game, and he's easily one of the best players on the team. He'd be a top 6 player on every ****ing team in the NHL.

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10-11-2012, 12:46 AM
  #418
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I like grabo, he's a solid option going forward with a #2 C and by no means is the reason we lose every year at all.

Goaltending is our massive issue along with mediocre defense(I mean LEBDA was on our third pairing in 2010, just brutal) in seasons past.

Defense is improving as a whole, along with defensive depth.

Goaltending remains mediocre/bad to me unless reimer/scrivens prove otherwise.

You get solid wingers and a true #1 C and Grabo is definitely a fine #2 C.

but he wont be here forever, he's gone IMO by the end of his contract, which is probably around the time this team goes back to being in it's playoff prime for the first time since the early 2000's.

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10-11-2012, 01:30 AM
  #419
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This thread is baffling. I must be watching a different Grabovski than some of these guys.
No doubt, you're probably staring at your avatar too much.

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10-11-2012, 01:49 AM
  #420
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Why can't people just accept Grabovski is the best #2 centre option for the Leafs? #1 centre is a major priority. Everyone knows if the offer comes for a #1 centre and it includes Grabovski we get the deal done. That doesn't mean trade Grabovski for a prospect who COULD be as good. Leafs need to make the playoffs and let this team grow. No matter what any stats say, Burke has made it obvious that he is a staple on this team with the deal he gave him. End of story.

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10-11-2012, 02:57 AM
  #421
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Why can't people just accept Grabovski is the best #2 centre option for the Leafs? #1 centre is a major priority. Everyone knows if the offer comes for a #1 centre and it includes Grabovski we get the deal done. That doesn't mean trade Grabovski for a prospect who COULD be as good. Leafs need to make the playoffs and let this team grow. No matter what any stats say, Burke has made it obvious that he is a staple on this team with the deal he gave him. End of story.
For now he is. The issue is that since you can't really put him anywhere else other than #2C, he's sort of taking up a spot that is usually used as a stepping stone for some prospects. We'll see what sort of lineup mix Carlyle prefers over the next season or two, but currently, the likes of McKegg, Colborne and even potentially Kadri may not really best suited for 3rd line roles / minutes. Or are we going to start converting all our center prospects to wingers to make room for them in the lineup?

Burke's also signed Komisarek to a 5 year deal not all that long ago. Was that a statement that he's been a staple on this team?

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10-11-2012, 03:13 AM
  #422
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
No doubt, you're probably staring at your avatar too much.
He's my favorite leaf by miles. For good reasons.

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10-11-2012, 05:58 AM
  #423
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Why can't people just accept Grabovski is the best #2 centre option for the Leafs? #1 centre is a major priority. Everyone knows if the offer comes for a #1 centre and it includes Grabovski we get the deal done. That doesn't mean trade Grabovski for a prospect who COULD be as good. Leafs need to make the playoffs and let this team grow. No matter what any stats say, Burke has made it obvious that he is a staple on this team with the deal he gave him. End of story.
That's the question, we have been 23rd, 29th, 21st, and 25th the past 4 years. Are we really close to making the playoffs? To me there is no progress at the club level with the exception of JVR, he's a nice piece but let's temper the excitement because he has thus far been a 40 point on the verge top 6 player.

If we keep going to the well with this core of players, and I am not talking about the 3rd and 4th lines or the 5th or 5th defencemen, how is this team going to make the playoffs with essentially the same personnel? I agree Grabo will eventually be traded, it is only a matter of time. Only his biggest backers believe he will be here when this team turns it around. The only promising part of our team is our prospects pool, for this gives up hope. Hopefully they can fill some badly needed holes in the top 6 group and the top 4 defencemen on the depth chart.

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10-11-2012, 06:28 AM
  #424
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Winning has nothing to do with the quality of players you put on the ice, period? And I thought we were in the business of trying to win.
It has nothing to do with whether Grabbo is a 2c or not, which he is. Still have not seem anything from you supporting the fact that he is not.

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10-11-2012, 06:31 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
In his short time with the Leafs, we've seen Bozak play beside 3/4 of our forward crew in all positions but #4C, and has managed to handle himself just fine. He can toss his weight around when needs he needs to, is willing to take the hacks and slashes in front of the net, has good defensive awareness, good on the faceoffs, and is a decent playmaker. He's a bit of a jack of all trades, master of none (versus the jack of one trade, master of none).

There were a lot of suitors for that #1C position, as we seem to have no shortage of average centers, so Bozak didn't exactly get the job by default. How did Tin Man do with those PPG wingers while Bozak was out nursing the wrist injury?

Bozak's role is a lot different when playing between Lupul and Kessel than Grabo's role. He has to try to be the defensive anchor of the line against very though matchups night in and night out (a bit like the Kulemin of the Kessel line). He can't afford to go balls out offense like Grabo can, because if he gets caught out of position, chances are, noone's covering for him. As much as playing between two PPG players may help to pad his point totals, I believe his current role also holds back his personal offensive game's development.
Probably because Bozak doesn't have the balls out offensive abilities of a Grabbo.

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