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If the flyers were to get the 1st overall pick after a yearlong lockout..

View Poll Results: What would you rather do?
Draft MacKinnon 28 44.44%
Draft Jones 27 42.86%
Trade down 8 12.70%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-05-2012, 10:50 AM
  #51
Pellegrino
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Flyers chief scout was in Gävle to watch Elias Lindholm in yesterdays game between Brynäs and Färjestad. Lindholm wont be #1 in draft but perhaps top 5...

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Old
10-05-2012, 10:59 AM
  #52
Krishna
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Does that happen to be Hampus' brother?

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Old
10-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #53
Pellegrino
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Does that happen to be Hampus' brother?
Not related, but Elias father Mikael Lindholm used to play in the NHL and his cousin is Red Wings prospect Calle Järnkrok.

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Old
10-05-2012, 04:34 PM
  #54
tuckrr
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Originally Posted by chris shafer View Post
you have to take mackinnon.

Mackinnon - giroux
schenn - couturier

who is center?
Who is wing?
I don't care.
It's unstoppable.


Anyway, it's not going to happen.
this.

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Old
10-06-2012, 05:32 PM
  #55
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Right now the sports sites have them very close (like the Hall/Seguin rankings). Unless that changes I'd go with Jones (remember Pronger was #2 behind Daigle) as stud defense are harder to land then centers.

I like the idea of hedging the bet by turning that pick into a Weber, Kieth, etc. that is already prime as the center piece of a package.

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Old
10-06-2012, 05:57 PM
  #56
SeanVT395
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Trade it for Weber

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10-06-2012, 06:37 PM
  #57
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Trade it for Weber
This.

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Old
10-08-2012, 02:16 PM
  #58
Tank To Win
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Assuming the lockout wipes out the entire year, the Preds would then have paid Weber $26 Million in bonus money without even playing a single game under his new contract. I seriously doubt they would trade him at that point without getting any kind of return on the investment.

The Flyers couldn't even land the 1st overall after finishing dead last in the league. I find it very hard to believe there would be any sort of draft scenario created which would give them the first overall following the lockout. It's always been the policy of the organization to take the best player available, regardless of position, but if I'm the Flyers, and they magically have the first overall pick, I take Mackinnon. This team just can't develop Defensemen like they can Forwards. They lose patience very quickly.

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10-10-2012, 09:53 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Tank To Win View Post
Assuming the lockout wipes out the entire year, the Preds would then have paid Weber $26 Million in bonus money without even playing a single game under his new contract. I seriously doubt they would trade him at that point without getting any kind of return on the investment.

The Flyers couldn't even land the 1st overall after finishing dead last in the league. I find it very hard to believe there would be any sort of draft scenario created which would give them the first overall following the lockout. It's always been the policy of the organization to take the best player available, regardless of position, but if I'm the Flyers, and they magically have the first overall pick, I take Mackinnon. This team just can't develop Defensemen like they can Forwards. They lose patience very quickly.
You mean like the scenerio that unfolded during the last lockout, which if exercised again gives the Flyers a mathematical chance at drafting first, albeit the same mathematical change as half of the league?

No one is saying the Flyers will get it, merely speculating what would occur after they hypothetically got it. hence "Speculation:" at the beginning of the thread....

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Old
10-10-2012, 11:22 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I admit i havent seen Mackinnon or Jones play. Just going by what I would consiter given the state of our prospect depth.
That's okay, I'd bet he hasn't either, other than maybe a clip or two on TV.

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Old
10-10-2012, 02:03 PM
  #61
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I think the whole BPA stuff gets taken a little too far. If you're talking about the third rounds and later it makes sense, because the type of player those picks are likely to turn out to be are roster fillers. So you pick the best one available because you need to give yourself the best chance of just getting a player out of the deal. Once you're talking about top two picks, these are impact players. Unless one is so far beyond the other, positional need should be taken into account, because the player you pick is very likely to be making a contribution in the next couple of years.

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Old
10-10-2012, 02:16 PM
  #62
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You always draft the best player available, period. If they're neck and neck it's one thing, but I don't think that's the case. MacKinnon is a unanimous (according to TSN, who let's face it watches more of these kids than most of us) #1 and potential franchise 1st line forward. You don't pass that up because you need a defenseman, if anything you draft MacKinnon and then trade some of your other forward depth to get a defenseman.

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Old
10-10-2012, 02:18 PM
  #63
Krishna
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
You always draft the best player available, period. If they're neck and neck it's one thing, but I don't think that's the case. MacKinnon is a unanimous (according to TSN, who let's face it watches more of these kids than most of us) #1 and potential franchise 1st line forward. You don't pass that up because you need a defenseman, if anything you draft MacKinnon and then trade some of your other forward depth to get a defenseman.
McKenzie and a few others have said that MacKinnon was ahead of Jones but Jones could pull it in a lot closer during the year

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Old
10-10-2012, 02:23 PM
  #64
Broad Street Elite
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think the whole BPA stuff gets taken a little too far. If you're talking about the third rounds and later it makes sense, because the type of player those picks are likely to turn out to be are roster fillers.
Actually, I feel it has nothing to do with when it occurs, but the disparity between the BPA and the positional need. Three rounds in, you're probably less likely to see the disparity between players being enough where need versus BPA makes a lot of difference.

This actual debate comes down more to the disparity between MacKinnon, Jones, and whomever might establish themselves in 3 months.

We had similar debate on these forums a couple months back when it was asked, if we could go back in time, would you have drafted Hamilton over Couturier. I and most others still said No in spite of the current need.

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Old
10-10-2012, 02:24 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
McKenzie and a few others have said that MacKinnon was ahead of Jones but Jones could pull it in a lot closer during the year
Definitely, I think this current debate can only be based upon where the players are today versus where they may or may not be in 3-4 months. One of them could get injured and it could change this debate dramatically.

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Old
10-10-2012, 05:24 PM
  #66
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Seth Jones

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:46 PM
  #67
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I think the whole BPA stuff gets taken a little too far. If you're talking about the third rounds and later it makes sense, because the type of player those picks are likely to turn out to be are roster fillers. So you pick the best one available because you need to give yourself the best chance of just getting a player out of the deal. Once you're talking about top two picks, these are impact players. Unless one is so far beyond the other, positional need should be taken into account, because the player you pick is very likely to be making a contribution in the next couple of years.
It's just the opposite. The first overall pick is the most important pick in the draft. Teams cannot afford to screw it up. You always go with the best talent. Period.

I think people take drafting for need too seriously. You don't use the draft to fill holes on the roster. The draft is simply to find talent.

I like Jones, but compare the first forward taken in each draft to the first defenseman in each draft.


Heatley ----------- Klesla
Kovalchuk ----------- Komisarek
Nash ------------ Bouwmeester
Eric Staal ---------- Suter
Ovechkin ----------- Barker
Crosby ---------- Jack Johnson
Jordan Staal --------------- Erik Johnson
Patrick Kane --------- Karl Alzner
Stamkos ----------- Doughty
Tavares ------------ Hedman


The top forward is almost always guaranteed to be a star unless you're drafting for need like the Penguins did with Staal. That's not the case with the top defenseman. It's a much bigger crap shoot.

If the Flyers had the #2 pick I'd be more than happy with Jones, but MacKinnon is the much safer bet to be a star. Whatever team ends up with the #1 pick would be crazy to pass on him.

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Old
10-10-2012, 07:30 PM
  #68
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Actually, I feel it has nothing to do with when it occurs, but the disparity between the BPA and the positional need. Three rounds in, you're probably less likely to see the disparity between players being enough where need versus BPA makes a lot of difference.

This actual debate comes down more to the disparity between MacKinnon, Jones, and whomever might establish themselves in 3 months.
I agree that as the difference between the BPA and the runner-up becomes smaller, who the best player available is should be of less importance. However there are other factors that also become even more of a wash as you get into the later rounds, in effect making small differences in overall quality of player still largely important. The players available in the third round and later are still years out from being able to contribute, and as such are players that GM's are more willing to roll the dice on. They're high-risk/high-reward "projects" if you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
We had similar debate on these forums a couple months back when it was asked, if we could go back in time, would you have drafted Hamilton over Couturier. I and most others still said No in spite of the current need.
I might have drafted Hamilton actually, provided he lives up to expectations. If we don't agree on the premise him being an excellent NHL player as a near certainty, then Cutourier becomes my choice.

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10-11-2012, 02:36 AM
  #69
tuckrr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
It's just the opposite. The first overall pick is the most important pick in the draft. Teams cannot afford to screw it up. You always go with the best talent. Period.

I think people take drafting for need too seriously. You don't use the draft to fill holes on the roster. The draft is simply to find talent.

I like Jones, but compare the first forward taken in each draft to the first defenseman in each draft.


Heatley ----------- Klesla
Kovalchuk ----------- Komisarek
Nash ------------ Bouwmeester
Eric Staal ---------- Suter
Ovechkin ----------- Barker
Crosby ---------- Jack Johnson
Jordan Staal --------------- Erik Johnson
Patrick Kane --------- Karl Alzner
Stamkos ----------- Doughty
Tavares ------------ Hedman


The top forward is almost always guaranteed to be a star unless you're drafting for need like the Penguins did with Staal. That's not the case with the top defenseman. It's a much bigger crap shoot.

If the Flyers had the #2 pick I'd be more than happy with Jones, but MacKinnon is the much safer bet to be a star. Whatever team ends up with the #1 pick would be crazy to pass on him.

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:41 AM
  #70
tuckrr
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I agree that as the difference between the BPA and the runner-up becomes smaller, who the best player available is should be of less importance. However there are other factors that also become even more of a wash as you get into the later rounds, in effect making small differences in overall quality of player still largely important. The players available in the third round and later are still years out from being able to contribute, and as such are players that GM's are more willing to roll the dice on. They're high-risk/high-reward "projects" if you will.



I might have drafted Hamilton actually, provided he lives up to expectations. If we don't agree on the premise him being an excellent NHL player as a near certainty, then Cutourier becomes my choice.
If hamilton & cooter both reach their "potential" then I'd be happy with either, but certainly take Sean.

If he reaches his full potential as a 235lbs 6'4" 70+ point player, with Selke 2-way play, then he is the best player in the 2011 draft.

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10-11-2012, 03:04 AM
  #71
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
If hamilton & cooter both reach their "potential" then I'd be happy with either, but certainly take Sean.

If he reaches his full potential as a 235lbs 6'4" 70+ point player, with Selke 2-way play, then he is the best player in the 2011 draft.
Well people are already counting Hamilton's Norris trophies, so keep that in mind when I make a reference to living up to expectations (even the more reasonable ones are quite lofty).

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10-11-2012, 03:08 AM
  #72
Krishna
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Well people are already counting Hamilton's Norris trophies, so keep that in mind when I make a reference to living up to expectations (even the more reasonable ones are quite lofty).
People are already counting Couturier's Selkes

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10-11-2012, 04:00 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
People are already counting Couturier's Selkes
Which I think is more of an indictment of fans' expectations than it is an endorsement of Couturier's abilities. Both are remarkable though.

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10-11-2012, 09:00 AM
  #74
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I might have drafted Hamilton actually, provided he lives up to expectations. If we don't agree on the premise him being an excellent NHL player as a near certainty, then Cutourier becomes my choice.
It's easy to say you'd choose Hamilton if he pans out, but teams don't have the benefit of hindsight when making their selection.

Forwards are a greater bet to reach their ceilings so Couturier was always the best choice just like MacKinnon would be the best choice over Jones.

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10-11-2012, 09:31 AM
  #75
tuckrr
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Which I think is more of an indictment of fans' expectations than it is an endorsement of Couturier's abilities. Both are remarkable though.
Well it's certainly not a baseless claim, that he's already our best defensive player.

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