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Voracek/Simmonds

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:22 AM
  #26
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
How many teams have a Bryz-esque contract that they could include in a package to offset Lu's contract?
A lot of team's have over-paid players. Granted, the length of the commitment to Bryzgalov is longer than most. The thing is, you want us to trade you Bryzgalov, with the thought in mind that he has negative or near-zero value. Then somehow we are supposed to pay full freight on Luongo, despite the fact that he has a comparable contract. No thank you. The two of them are not that far apart value wise to us. Luongo is better, maybe we do the trade and add, but it won't be a first or Voracek, let alone both.

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:30 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Why, because I value my player differently than you do, or because I don't want to pay the asking price for Edler?
I read it as a value statement. If it's just your personal feelings, then that's a different story and I take it back.

Quote:
Coburn is a better defender than Edler (scoff at it if you like, it's true). Coburn is probably not a better player, but he's a better defender and that's the kind of defenseman we need (our team was second in scoring last year, not so strong defensively).
Obviously I disagree with the "who's better", but I'd rather remove Edler from the discussion entirely and not even go there. Too much what-have-you-done-for-me-lately syndrome with Van fans on this board since the playoffs.

Quote:
Their contracts are comparable. Luongo is a better goalie absolutely, but if he was good enough to be worth Bryz, Voracek and a 1st you wouldn't be trying to trade him at all. If he is so desirable, he would've been traded already. The market is not bearing what you want for him, so trade him for what you can get or don't. Continuing to ask for outlandish packages isn't doing anything but annoying people.
I didn't ask for that package. I remarked on saying that the contracts are comparable, when they really aren't.

Bryz's contract is already looking like it might be an albatross and his previous numbers were the "Tippet-effect". Another season will prove/disprove this, but for now that is what it looks like. He also has shown no indication that he may retire before the contract is up.

Luongo's contract only becomes an albatross if his play drops off. There is no question as to his current ability - .937 from mid-November to the end of the regular season (after his usual brutal October), and a Vezina nomination the year before. His play has not dropped off yet. There are also lots of indications that he will not play his contract to the end.

To me that's enough to qualify as a big difference. Maybe Bryz comes back with a vengeance and proves his contract wasn't a mistake, but right now it's downright terrifying.

I still stick with my original statement that Van doesn't have the assets to get Voracek or Simmonds, since Edler shouldn't be in the trade discussion and the Flyers can't use Luongo nor would they (I presume) be interested in a futures package.


Last edited by mriswith: 10-11-2012 at 02:36 AM.
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Old
10-11-2012, 02:31 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
A lot of team's have over-paid players. Granted, the length of the commitment to Bryzgalov is longer than most. The thing is, you want us to trade you Bryzgalov, with the thought in mind that he has negative or near-zero value. Then somehow we are supposed to pay full freight on Luongo, despite the fact that he has a comparable contract. No thank you. The two of them are not that far apart value wise to us. Luongo is better, maybe we do the trade and add, but it won't be a first or Voracek, let alone both.
Fair enough.

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:57 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schism View Post
I didn't ask for that package. I remarked on saying that the contracts are comparable, when they really aren't.
Fair enough. When I type "you" I am really addressing Vancouver in general. As for my valuation of Coburn and Edler, I value them similarly. I have a lot of confidence in Coburn to show up in a big way when it matter though, which tips the scales for me. I also do have a preference for defensive defense men, but that's just my personal philosophy on team building coming through.

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Originally Posted by schism View Post
Bryz's contract is already looking like it might be an albatross and his previous numbers were the "Tippet-effect". Another season will prove/disprove this, but for now that is what it looks like. He also has shown no indication that he may retire before the contract is up.

Luongo's contract only becomes an albatross if his play drops off. There is no question as to his current ability - .937 from mid-November to the end of the regular season (after his usual brutal October), and a Vezina nomination the year before. His play has not dropped off yet. There are also lots of indications that he will not play his contract to the end.

To me that's enough to qualify as a big difference. Maybe Bryz comes back with a vengeance and proves his contract wasn't a mistake, but right now it's downright terrifying.

I still stick with my original statement that Van doesn't have the assets to get Voracek or Simmonds, since Edler shouldn't be in the trade discussion and the Flyers can't use Luongo nor would they (I presume) be interested in a futures package.
Bryzgalov was erratic, mercurial, a headcase. Call it what you want, it's mostly true. He showed the ability last year to play at an outstanding level still. He broke the all time shut out streak record for the franchise last March, so it's a matter of consistency with him. We have use for Luongo surely, but not so long a Bryzgalov is here. Bryzgalov has an NMC, so he won't likely waive that to go be Corey Schneider's back up. So the Luongo for Bryz + idea exists purely in the realm of the hypothetical anyway (which is not unique for this board, I know).

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Old
10-11-2012, 12:17 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What about Lu for Bryz + Voracek + 1st?

It's just so crazy...
Sorry, but why exactly is Luongo so much more valuable than Bryz?

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10-11-2012, 12:21 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1865 View Post
Sorry, but why exactly is Luongo so much more valuable than Bryz?
Because he's better(a year removed from Vezina nomination) and cheaper?

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Old
10-11-2012, 12:30 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Because he's better(a year removed from Vezina nomination) and cheaper?
Bryzgalov is also an ex-Vezina nominee and a top 5 finalist for the Hart Trophy in 09–10

Not to mention he won a cup, albeit as a back-up

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Old
10-11-2012, 01:01 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
So what do the Canucks need for Edler to be on the table? Is a deal workable around one of the two names you mentioned (if you wanted both I don't think the Flyers would be interested)?
Honestly? A return that takes Edlers on-ice value into consideration, regardless of what the peanut gallery here thinks of impending UFAs (I'm pretty sure the Flyers could easily work out a deal with a player like Edler).

And yeah.. it would take getting something like Simmonds + Voracek back. Say for Edler and one of Booth/Hansen/Higgins?

Then of course the Canucks would have to have a deal for an impact defenseman worked out involving Luongo.

Short of a return that gives full value (and then some) for Alex Edler I'm sure the Canucks would prefer to leave their defense as is and work on an extension. I expect they'll be willing to make him the team's highest-paid defenseman if that's what it takes unlike Christian Ehrhoff.

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Old
10-11-2012, 01:50 PM
  #34
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Edler for Couturier.

Edler+ for both Schenns.

Edler for Voracek + Simmonds

Trades like those would have to be on the table to pry Edler.

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10-11-2012, 01:51 PM
  #35
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Old
10-11-2012, 01:53 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropkickQuinn View Post
Neutral party here, it would probably take an overpayment, as in, Simmonds/Voracek + for Edler since their biggest need (IMO) is consistent D. If they didnt have Bryz there could probably be a very reasonable deal worked out for Luongo, but having one goalie on a mega-contract is enough. I don't see either Simmonds or Voracek being moved however, since the Flyers just got weaker at RW with the loss of Jagr
Why would they want Edler if they're looking for consistent?

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Old
10-11-2012, 01:54 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Edler for Couturier.

Edler+ for both Schenns.
Edler for Voracek + Simmonds

Trades like those would have to be on the table to pry Edler.

Common theme in all Flyers trade threads.

At least this one took 25+ posts before we got here, the RJ Umberger to Philly thread took 5 posts.

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Old
10-11-2012, 01:58 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Edler for Couturier.

Edler+ for both Schenns.

Edler for Voracek + Simmonds

Trades like those would have to be on the table to pry Edler.
THe second two are pretty awful for the Flyers. Granted, there's less chance of Edler walking than on most teams, since Snider rarely gets out-bid, but if he decides he doesn't want to play in Philadelphia, they've just given up a significant chunk of their core for a rental.

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:08 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
THe second two are pretty awful for the Flyers. Granted, there's less chance of Edler walking than on most teams, since Snider rarely gets out-bid, but if he decides he doesn't want to play in Philadelphia, they've just given up a significant chunk of their core for a rental.
I doubt Edler would walk. A high octane, competitive team on which he gets to play an integral role.

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10-11-2012, 02:09 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
THe second two are pretty awful for the Flyers. Granted, there's less chance of Edler walking than on most teams, since Snider rarely gets out-bid, but if he decides he doesn't want to play in Philadelphia, they've just given up a significant chunk of their core for a rental.
Won't happen IMO.

Like you said Snider rarely gets outbid, the last time was for Dan Hamhuis who obviously had his sights set on one team - I don't think that'd be the case for Edler (and if it is then it's on the Canucks and they'll work out a deal - hence this whole discussion is moot).

Other than that, the Flyers get who they want (or Holmgren blows his load on an offer sheet that is ultimately a waste of time).

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10-11-2012, 02:17 PM
  #41
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Canuck fans obviously want to keep Edler.

How about Bieska for either Voracek or Simmonds?

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10-11-2012, 02:21 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Canuck fans obviously want to keep Edler.

How about Bieska for either Voracek or Simmonds?
I don't see the point from the Flyers perspective. They have plenty of 2-4 defenseman. They lack a #1.

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10-11-2012, 02:28 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Canuck fans obviously want to keep Edler.

How about Bieska for either Voracek or Simmonds?
Bieksa has a NTC, and is a huge fan favourite. I don't see him being traded anytime soon.

What about Briere? Or is he sort of in the same boat as Bieksa?

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:29 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Bieksa has a NTC, and is a huge fan favourite. I don't see him being traded anytime soon.

What about Briere? Or is he sort of in the same boat as Bieksa?
Well, I wouldn't call him a fan favorite--at least not here.

But he has a NMC, and a complicated child custody arrangement that would likely prevent him from moving away .

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10-11-2012, 02:51 PM
  #45
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Won't happen IMO.

Like you said Snider rarely gets outbid, the last time was for Dan Hamhuis who obviously had his sights set on one team - I don't think that'd be the case for Edler (and if it is then it's on the Canucks and they'll work out a deal - hence this whole discussion is moot).

Other than that, the Flyers get who they want (or Holmgren blows his load on an offer sheet that is ultimately a waste of time).
Exactly. I can't wait to see how Suter and Parise mesh in with the Flyers once the lockout ends. Oh wait...

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:59 PM
  #46
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Exactly. I can't wait to see how Suter and Parise mesh in with the Flyers once the lockout ends. Oh wait...
Well, it isn't quite that simple. There were geographic considerations for those two, right? Philadelphia is actually closer to Edler's hometown.

But yeah, I don't think I'd do it.

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Old
10-11-2012, 03:13 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan52 View Post
Canuck fans obviously want to keep Edler.

How about Bieska for either Voracek or Simmonds?
Not the worst counter proposal I've heard. I'd honestly rather keep Bieksa over Edler just because of our top pairing chemistry we have with Hamhuis. Also, the assured contract status helps Bieksa's value here, not because there is any doubt that Edler will sign, but because of the uncertainty of the new CBA at this time.

I'd be interested in something along the lines of Simmonds+ for Edler, but for Bieksa, especially because of the sand paper he brings (not to say Simmonds or Edler aren't physical or anything of that sort) as well as the leadership role he has, I'd be looking for a return like Hartnell for Bieksa+.

Coburn aside, with Pronger and Mezaros out, who are the other defenders that would be filling a top four role on the Flyers? And more specifically, who would be available for an upgrade trade?

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Old
10-11-2012, 03:15 PM
  #48
Vankiller Whale
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Schenn, off the top of my head...

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Old
10-11-2012, 03:20 PM
  #49
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What would it take for the Canucks to land one of them?

What are Philly's biggest needs right now?
I am glad you asked about a team's need but really? You didn't know Philly biggest need is at defense?

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10-11-2012, 03:34 PM
  #50
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I am glad you asked about a team's need but really? You didn't know Philly biggest need is at defense?
Okay, but I was half-hoping we could get away with a futures package, as their prospect pool is pretty shallow.(although with their young core it's not too much of a problem)

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