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Old
10-11-2012, 11:09 AM
  #76
poetryinmotion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Any Islander fan, even the most pessimistic(if you think I'm being a homer) will tell you the same thing. Streit looked like the old Streit during the second half of 2011-12.
That's fine, but the old Streit wasn't great defensively either. He went from horrible to decent in his transition from MTL to the NYI, Subban is on an other level entirely right now.

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10-11-2012, 11:09 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
I never said Streit sucks. He doesnt. He is a really good offensive d-man, just average defensively. Subban is much better, and to be honest, I am shocked to see anyone argue that fact.
I never argued against Subban. If you read back a little bit in this thread, I agreed that he's a top-pairing defenseman that I'd love to have on my team.

My only argument was against the underrating of Streit. If you think Subban is better, that's fine. But if you think the gap is as large as I've seen in this thread, then IMO you are basing your opinions off the Streit you saw in MTL, and not the Streit that's been playing in LI.

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10-11-2012, 11:12 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
It really has nothing to do with his offensive game. In the first half he was constantly getting beat by guys breaking in along the wing, and he was responsible for countless turnovers trying to make breakout passes. During the second half, he was a different player. He looked like the old Streit. He was taking better angles to the puck and was rarely beat, was much smarter with the puck and with his stick checks. In the first half he seemed to try to force plays that weren't there. In the second half, he was much more calm with the puck and seemed to always make the right play on the breakout.

Any Islander fan, even the most pessimistic(if you think I'm being a homer) will tell you the same thing. Streit looked like the old Streit during the second half of 2011-12.
I'd have to agree with this statement. His shoulder may have been healthy to start the year, but it takes time to get over the mental hurdle of a significant injury like that. His first half of the season wasn't pretty, but he looked very much like his old self towards the second half. Most likely a combination of finally believing he was completely healthy and shaking off the rust.

The same applies to Okposo as he was playing like his pre-injury days towards the second half as well. Getting over a serious injury like that is as much mental as it is physical.

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10-11-2012, 11:15 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
That's fine, but the old Streit wasn't great defensively either. He went from horrible to decent in his transition from MTL to the NYI, Subban is on an other level entirely right now.
Really? Even the Streit who in '09 finished with a +6 as the #1 defenseman for the worst team in the NHL, which had almost a -80 GF/GA differential? I mean, that should mean a lot considering how much stock you put into +/-, right?

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10-11-2012, 11:35 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Never.

P.K. is on-par with the best 2way dman's in the league.(Well, maybe not on par with all of them, but he's damn near them.)
I think he just might be able to be.

But let's not pretend that he's already proven/done it.

Once he's put up an NHL season akin to his 09-10 season in Hamilton, then you can make that statement with a great deal of pride.

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10-11-2012, 11:54 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
I think he just might be able to be.

But let's not pretend that he's already proven/done it.

Once he's put up an NHL season akin to his 09-10 season in Hamilton, then you can make that statement with a great deal of pride.
You mean offensively, then. If he was putting up a 53-pt offensive season in the NHL, he'd be among the best *offensive* defensemen in the league (1 player got more than 53 points on the blueline last year, 5 topped 50). Instead, he's among the best *2-way* defenders in the league, because his defense is better than his offense, even though his offense snuck into the top-30 in the league.

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10-11-2012, 12:07 PM
  #82
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Isles have 2 offensive d-man in Donovan and De Haan, starting their 2nd pro seasons in Bridgeport. They were set to fight it out in camp along with Ness, for the #6 role on the isles 2012-2013 roster

According to Pronman, Donovan's upside is a #3 d-man and De Haan's upside is a top 4 d-man. Donovan is coming off a terrific rookie season (4th in pts for AHL d-men).
One of these 2, is most likely Streit's heir apparent on LI.

Reinhart's upside is higher then Hamonic/De Haan/ Donovan.

Would the isles like to have Subban? Sure? Would Snow get into a bidding fight and overpay? I doubt it.

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10-11-2012, 12:15 PM
  #83
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I would do that proposal for sure with Reinhardt.

Opening night roster:

Cole---Desharnais---Paccioretty
Grabner---Plekanec---Gionta
Bourque---Eller---Prust
Martin---White---Moen
x-Armstrong

Emelin---Markov
Kaberle---Gorges
Boullion---Diaz
x-Weber

Price
Budaj


Not exactly that good of a line-up but to be realistic the Habs are not in the running for the Cup this year and their goal would be to make the playoffs.

Now insert these prospects into that line-up in the next few years:
Alex Galchenyuk, Nathan Beaulieu, Griffin Reinhardt, Louis Leblanc, Jarred Tinordi, Sebastian Collberg, Brendan Gallagher

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10-11-2012, 12:18 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Isles have 2 offensive d-man in Donovan and De Haan, starting their 2nd pro seasons in Bridgeport. They were set to fight it out in camp along with Ness, for the #6 role on the isles 2012-2013 roster

According to Pronman, Donovan's upside is a #3 d-man and De Haan's upside is a top 4 d-man. Donovan is coming off a terrific rookie season (4th in pts for AHL d-men).
One of these 2, is most likely Streit's heir apparent on LI.

Reinhart's upside is higher then Hamonic/De Haan/ Donovan.

Would the isles like to have Subban? Sure? Would Snow get into a bidding fight and overpay? I doubt it.
This is a sensible answer, but again, Subban isn't an offensive D. He's a Shea Weber lite.

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10-11-2012, 01:05 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
This is a sensible answer, but again, Subban isn't an offensive D. He's a Shea Weber lite.
Ironic description


McGuire's comments on Hamonic.
http://islanderspointblank.com/news/...ts-at-the-wjc/
Travis Hamonic: “I’m a big believer in just about every player spending at least one year in the American Hockey League. That should also be the case with Travis, but I also can’t deny that he looks like he’s NHL-ready now. Hamonic is what all NHL teams need. He can be a big part of your shutdown unit, like he is with Scandella in this tournament. He can shoot the puck through a wall. He’s a great teammate, very mature.



“Shea Weber’s play at this tournament was ahead of what Travis is showing now, but Travis is the most improved player in Canadian junior hockey in the two years since the Islanders drafted him. His upside is probably in the tier just below a player like Weber, but I mean – c’mon! – Weber is on the Canadian Olympic team.

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10-11-2012, 01:17 PM
  #86
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Have enjoyed the chat and see we'll simply be coming to different conclusions.

I'll only mention a few little things here.

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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
I'm simply saying that Subban is a better rounded player in all facets of the game, including defense and physicality. When he's on the ice, he's not a one-trick poney, but more of a complete player... at a much younger age than the other two.
Subban's youth, energy and power may make him the currently better individual player in the physical abilities department, especially in comparison to Visnovsky (whose achievements are of course worth our respect and who had led all NHL Dmen in scoring just two seasons ago), but I do have my doubts that, when all things and aspects are taken into consideration, Subban is currently - on whole - better than Streit. Within a season or two, probably. I certainly don't think many outside of Montreal would say that he is 'right now' though.

Also, insinuating that, for example, the two year NHL veteran Subban would, if he were Swiss, already be captaining Team Switzerland ahead of a much more mature, experienced and proven Mark Streit would have no less than a few hundred thousand hockey fans from my current soutwestern neighbor laughing their collective socks off, much less peak the ire of other folks around the international ice hockey community.

There's more than a healthy portion of audaciousness in such a statement, especially considering Subban's many maturity-related issues thus far.

Quote:
... to state that Hamonic will become as good as Subban is a HF Board parasite where prospects seem to be compared to established players, which no one knows until they reach (or not) their potential.
Surely such a thing happens at these boards. No doubt whatsoever. It may even be pretty rampant.

In this case however, Subban has actually only played a little over half a season's worth of games (total of 181, including POs, 24-64-88 245 PM) more than Hamonic (135, 7-43-50 176 PM). They are roughly the same size and weight, and both are righty shots who can deliver bombs for shots and checks. Both even fight occasionally.

Subban is 15 months older.

Thus, we can't really refer to Hamonic as solely a prospect being compared to an established player in Subban.

I certainly think Subban is currently better. His offensive numbers alone would indicate that, although I'd have to think he's been seeing a heck of a lot more time on the PP than Hamonic has (who has seen very little in fact, to the ire of a number of Islander fans). In any case, I don't think its rationally off base to believe that Hamonic may very well have caught up to or surpassed Subban within the next few seasons. Hamonic is not only highly esteemed in Islanderland, but very much so around Hockey Canada as well. There's much about his actual game and playing style that reminds more than a few of a young Shea Weber.

He's one you really might want to keep an eye on.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 10-11-2012 at 03:21 PM.
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Old
10-11-2012, 01:37 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Isles have 2 offensive d-man in Donovan and De Haan, starting their 2nd pro seasons in Bridgeport. They were set to fight it out in camp along with Ness, for the #6 role on the isles 2012-2013 roster

According to Pronman, Donovan's upside is a #3 d-man and De Haan's upside is a top 4 d-man. Donovan is coming off a terrific rookie season (4th in pts for AHL d-men).
One of these 2, is most likely Streit's heir apparent on LI.

Reinhart's upside is higher then Hamonic/De Haan/ Donovan.

Would the isles like to have Subban? Sure? Would Snow get into a bidding fight and overpay? I doubt it.
I think Subban is a better fit here than you seem to think he'd be. He is much more than just an offensive defenseman, if that's what you were implying with the Donovan and deHaan part.

Outside of Hamonic, we have no RH defensemen. Some people don't think this matters, but I think adding one more would really help balance things out. Mayfield is probably a couple of years off, and who knows if Russo or Kichton will ever make it to the NHL(same could be said for Mayfield, actually).

With Streit and Visnovsky both set to become UFAs, there's a chance that Hamonic, MacDonald and Carkner will be our only defensemen under contract going into 2013-14. I'd like to think that Streit will re-sign, but him leaving is a definite possibility. Since Carkner is a 3rd pairing guy, we'd only have Hamonic and MacDonald holding down top-4 spots. Even if one of deHaan or Donovan develop into top-4 players by then, that still leaves one open spot. Not to mention another open spot on the 3rd pairing. Reinhart should eventually be a top-4 guy for us(at least), but that is still probably a couple of years away.

I just don't see how bringing in a guy like Subban, who is only 23 years old, would do anything but help this team now and going forward. Even if the price is Reinhart, Nelson, +.

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10-11-2012, 02:32 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I think Subban is a better fit here than you seem to think he'd be. He is much more than just an offensive defenseman, if that's what you were implying with the Donovan and deHaan part.

Outside of Hamonic, we have no RH defensemen. Some people don't think this matters, but I think adding one more would really help balance things out. Mayfield is probably a couple of years off, and who knows if Russo or Kichton will ever make it to the NHL(same could be said for Mayfield, actually).

With Streit and Visnovsky both set to become UFAs, there's a chance that Hamonic, MacDonald and Carkner will be our only defensemen under contract going into 2013-14. I'd like to think that Streit will re-sign, but him leaving is a definite possibility. Since Carkner is a 3rd pairing guy, we'd only have Hamonic and MacDonald holding down top-4 spots. Even if one of deHaan or Donovan develop into top-4 players by then, that still leaves one open spot. Not to mention another open spot on the 3rd pairing. Reinhart should eventually be a top-4 guy for us(at least), but that is still probably a couple of years away.

I just don't see how bringing in a guy like Subban, who is only 23 years old, would do anything but help this team now and going forward. Even if the price is Reinhart, Nelson, +.
I've said I'd like to have PK Subban playing for the isles. He'd be a very good fit imo. I just disagree that Snow should badly overpay for him, when Snow has very promising youngsters either in the nhl now or knocking on the door.



There is a very long list of impending ufas, who'll be available in July 2013. I'd rather wait and see if we don't have a lowered salary cap and flooded ufa market. Look for that top 4 on the market or in a smaller trade.

When Snow announced before the 2012 draft, that he was looking for veteran blueliners, we had a bunch of trade proposals involving top NYI prospects and the lottery pick. Very few proposals were along the lines of the Vis trade that actually went down: a vet on a short term deal for a 2nd rounder.

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10-11-2012, 02:50 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I've said I'd like to have PK Subban playing for the isles. He'd be a very good fit imo. I just disagree that Snow should badly overpay for him, when Snow has very promising youngsters either in the nhl now or knocking on the door.



There is a very long list of impending ufas, who'll be available in July 2013. I'd rather wait and see if we don't have a lowered salary cap and flooded ufa market. Look for that top 4 on the market or in a smaller trade.

When Snow announced before the 2012 draft, that he was looking for veteran blueliners, we had a bunch of trade proposals involving top NYI prospects and the lottery pick. Very few proposals were along the lines of the Vis trade that actually went down: a vet on a short term deal for a 2nd rounder.
I just doubt Snow could have gotten the type of player he'd be after. A young, quality top-4 guy with top-pairing potential. The fact that a trade never happened doesn't mean he wouldn't pull the trigger if a player like that were to become available. Guys like Subban, Yandle, etc. I'm sure Garth would be all over it if either of them were actually put on the market. That said, I would obviously prefer going after a UFA so we can hold onto our prospects(or use them for a 1st line forward), but outside of Edler there doesn't seem to be anyone who fits that criteria going into UFA(unless I missed someone).

IMO, Garth was just a year too late with his quest of trading for a young stud defenseman. Brent Burns would have been a perfect pickup last season, and we arguably could have been able to put together a better package than San Jose.

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10-11-2012, 03:06 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Outside of Hamonic, we have no RH defensemen. Some people don't think this matters, but I think adding one more would really help balance things out. Mayfield is probably a couple of years off, and who knows if Russo or Kichton will ever make it to the NHL(same could be said for Mayfield, actually).
Uhhh, you're sounding a bit redundant here. There are some good reasons to want Subban, but saying the Isles don't have enough righty Dmen is truly not one of them.

In Hamonic and Carkner, they have two in the top six. That's as many as most teams have.

You also mentioned Mayfield, Kichton and Russo, who are up-n-coming righties, with particularly Mayfield looking like a real goodin' one day soon. Now, if I remember correct no less than three of the Dmen taken this summer are righties too (Poka, Leduc, Grahame).

Quote:
With Streit and Visnovsky both set to become UFAs, there's a chance that Hamonic, MacDonald and Carkner will be our only defensemen under contract going into 2013-14. I'd like to think that Streit will re-sign, but him leaving is a definite possibility. Since Carkner is a 3rd pairing guy, we'd only have Hamonic and MacDonald holding down top-4 spots. Even if one of deHaan or Donovan develop into top-4 players by then, that still leaves one open spot. Not to mention another open spot on the 3rd pairing. Reinhart should eventually be a top-4 guy for us(at least), but that is still probably a couple of years away.
All this surely isn't an argument as to why the Isles should create holes on the forward front that cannot be filled from within in order to add to the one position the team has ample depth in, much less one whose skillset presents elements that are present in the current crop of young Dmen and prospects. If de Haan, Donovan and Ness are not ready for the show, then Snow needs to do what you do in the summer: Sign a corresponding UFA.

Quote:
I just don't see how bringing in a guy like Subban, who is only 23 years old, would do anything but help this team now and going forward. Even if the price is Reinhart, Nelson, +.
Of course he would help, but so too would over a hundred other bonafide NHL players. Your price and that of the OP is simply not something Garth Snow would or should pursure.

If this team is willing to part with two first rounders +, or a surefire future NHL Dman coupled with the team's heart+soul multipurpose enforcer and the fastest guy on the team, then it has to be to address the major need the team is lacking in spades: Bonafide, consistent forward scoring to accompany Tavares and Moulson. That has to be the next major addition. It is currently a disgustingly huge weakness.

Forget the hot-shot two-way Dman - that's the element we have a good supply of from here on out, no matter how large a person's man-crush on a guy like Subban might be.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 10-11-2012 at 03:20 PM.
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10-11-2012, 03:12 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I just doubt Snow could have gotten the type of player he'd be after. A young, quality top-4 guy with top-pairing potential. The fact that a trade never happened doesn't mean he wouldn't pull the trigger if a player like that were to become available. Guys like Subban, Yandle, etc. I'm sure Garth would be all over it if either of them were actually put on the market. That said, I would obviously prefer going after a UFA so we can hold onto our prospects(or use them for a 1st line forward), but outside of Edler there doesn't seem to be anyone who fits that criteria going into UFA(unless I missed someone).

IMO, Garth was just a year too late with his quest of trading for a young stud defenseman. Brent Burns would have been a perfect pickup last season, and we arguably could have been able to put together a better package than San Jose.
There were credible sources, sayng Yandle was being shopped around the time of the 2012 trade deadline and 2012 draft. Maybe the asking price was too high for teams to swallow.

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/ey...-had-via-trade

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10-11-2012, 03:15 PM
  #92
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switch Grabner for Okposo...


Pacioretty played with Okposo on a line together for team USA over the summer..Had great chemistry

switch the other guy to a 1st round pick in 2013 draft...

Reinhart
Okposo
1st rnd 2013

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10-11-2012, 03:25 PM
  #93
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People seriously tryin to compare streit to subban ? only reason Streit wasn't a healthy scratch with us was because of the PP and back then our def wasn't good neither

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10-11-2012, 03:36 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Uhhh, you're sounding a bit redundant here. There are some good reasons to want Subban, but saying the Isles don't have enough righty Dmen is truly not one of them.

In Hamonic and Carkner, they have two in the top six. That's as many as most teams have.

You also mentioned Mayfield, Kichton and Russo, who are up-n-coming righties, with particularly Mayfield looking like a real goodin' one day soon. Now, if I remember correct no less than three of the Dmen taken this summer are righties too (Poka, Leduc, Grahame).
First off the RH shot thing was just one reason, not THE reason. To be honest though, I completely forgot that Carkner is a RH shot. Honestly, it doesn't matter seeing as I have absolutely no expectations for the guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
All this surely isn't an argument as to why the Isles should create holes on the forward front that cannot be filled from within in order to add to the one position the team has ample depth in, much less one whose skillset presents elements that are present in the current crop of young Dmen and prospects. If de Haan, Donovan and Ness are not ready for the show, then Snow needs to do what you do in the summer: Sign a corresponding UFA.
What holes? I never agreed to the OP's deal of trading Martin, but a deal in which Reinhart and Nelson are the centerpieces I'd be all for. I think most Isles fans would be thrilled if Reinhart followed Subban's development curve(if not they either underrate Subban or overrate Reinhart's upside). Essentially you'd be trading Nelson to upgrade Reinhart from a "maybe someday he'll be this good" to a "he is this good and will in all likelihood get better."

If we were completely bare at the NHL level and below, I'd probably just take my chances with Big Griff. I do like him as a prospect, and I do think he'll develop into a great defenseman, but I've seen enough prospects who I thought would become great top out as solid AHL centers/wingers/defensemen/goaltenders. Fortunately for us though, we are in tremendous shape as far as young talent goes. We will probably have a centerman core of Tavares-Strome-Nielsen-Cizikas in the not-too-distant future. To me, that turns Nelson into an automatic trade chip considering he has a lot of value and we can trade him without opening up a hole going forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Of course he would help, but so too would over a hundred other bonafide NHL players. You're price and that of the OP is simply not something Garth Snow would or should pursure.

If this team is willing to part with two first rounders +, or a surefire future NHL Dman coupled with the team's heart+soul multipurpose enforcer and the fastest guy on the team, then it has to be to address the major need the team is lacking in spades: Bonafide, consistant forward scoring to accompany Tavares and Moulson. That has to be the next major addition. It is a currently disgustingly huge weakness.

Forget the hot-shot two-way Dman - that's the element we have a good supply of from here on out, no matter how large a person's man-crush on a guy like Subban might be.
Again, sorry for the confusion, but I have no desire to include Martin in any proposal. Outside of that, yes, I'd be extremely comfortable with trading away two first rounders+. I agree that we need secondary scoring, however I also have confidence in Bailey and Okposo becoming solid 2nd line players. I also have confidence in Strome becoming a great 2nd line center. I also have confidence in Nielsen and Grabner providing offense from the 3rd line, with Ullstrom or Martin or whoever is given the opportunity to play with them.

That basically leaves one hole on the top line, next to Tavares. It's possible that Boyes can be that guy, but IMO even if he breaks out playing with those two, I highly doubt Snow will give him the pay-day he's after. That leaves 3 guys in particular as options: Nino, Kabanov, Persson. I'd be surprised if neither of these 3 get a shot on this line, and will be equally shocked if none of them take this job running.

IMO, our defense should be a greater concern than our offense. Especially if Streit and Vis walk, and especially if we plan on replacing them via the UFA market.

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10-11-2012, 03:39 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subbang76 View Post
switch Grabner for Okposo...


Pacioretty played with Okposo on a line together for team USA over the summer..Had great chemistry

switch the other guy to a 1st round pick in 2013 draft...

Reinhart
Okposo
1st rnd 2013
Way too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
People seriously tryin to compare streit to subban ? only reason Streit wasn't a healthy scratch with us was because of the PP and back then our def wasn't good neither
So you're saying you haven't seen Streit play in over 4 years?

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10-11-2012, 03:42 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subbang76 View Post
switch Grabner for Okposo...


Pacioretty played with Okposo on a line together for team USA over the summer..Had great chemistry

switch the other guy to a 1st round pick in 2013 draft...

Reinhart
Okposo
1st rnd 2013


So, with the league in a lockout and the isles having a chance at McKinnon/Jones, you think Snow would be trading his 1st, a cheap 24 goal scorer and his top blueline prospect for Subban?

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10-11-2012, 03:45 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
So, with the league in a lockout and the isles having a chance at McKinnon/Jones, you think Snow would be trading his 1st, a cheap 24 goal scorer and his top blueline prospect for Subban?
There are so many ridiculously talented forwards in this draft as well. Guys like Monahan, Barkov, Lazar, Shinkaruk. Even if we don't get a top-2 pick we could still walk away with an elite player.

No way I even consider moving the 1st until games have been played.

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10-11-2012, 06:24 PM
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Way too much.



So you're saying you haven't seen Streit play in over 4 years?
It's the Isles buddy no offense but it didn't take much to crack that line-up and I obviously don't see every NYI game but the ones I saw he's the same old streit,horrible defensively but still has that accurate cannon,we had him for a couple years and now we have the younger version in Weber

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10-11-2012, 06:44 PM
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It's the Isles buddy no offense but it didn't take much to crack that line-up and I obviously don't see every NYI game but the ones I saw he's the same old streit,horrible defensively but still has that accurate cannon,we had him for a couple years and now we have the younger version in Weber
You lose what little credibility you had, trying to compare Streit to Weber. No offense buddy.

Pre-shoulder surgery, Streit played very well for the isles. His $4m contract was considered a steal by many isles fans and opposing teams fans.

His first 55-60 games post surgery(2011-2012), he was awful. It took him until about the trade deadline to finally shake off the rust. But he has and the isles are looking for him to again carry a heavy load on the ice and mentor Donovan/De Haan. This past summer, the press reported that the Oilers called asking about his availibilty. Snow said he's not being dealt.

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10-11-2012, 06:47 PM
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Terrible trading partners.

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