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Old
10-10-2012, 09:06 PM
  #26
Lonewolfe2015
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Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
i'd rather the Avs become adept at all facets of drafting so that we don't have huge holes and weaknesses in the farm system all the time.

not being good at drafting euro's says more about the flawed evaluation process than what league the player comes from.
the Avs tend to lean towards canadian major junior type leagues but that doesn't mean the talent is better because they're more well versed at scouting it there.
What part of my post gave you any inclination that I disagreed with what you said? I was stating that in light of our poor European scouting and Pracey's genuinely strong drafting record, I'd rather stick with players he is comfortable with than take shots in the dark in Europe given our lack of success scouting there.

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You're going to be eating crow when he becomes the next Zetterberg
You're on. Crow for breakfast, lunch and dinner if he becomes the next Zetterberg.

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10-10-2012, 10:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
What part of my post gave you any inclination that I disagreed with what you said? I was stating that in light of our poor European scouting and Pracey's genuinely strong drafting record, I'd rather stick with players he is comfortable with than take shots in the dark in Europe given our lack of success scouting there.



You're on. Crow for breakfast, lunch and dinner if he becomes the next Zetterberg.
Richard Pracey's strong drafting record? I must keep forgetting how we ended up in the standings these past 4 years, because as it stands, his drafting has lead us to the bottom in the standings, high in the drafting.

Also, Stoa, Wolski, Stewart, Shattenkirk, Hishon & co. haven't really worked out that well for us. High end picks, traded away for assumed better players, or injury laden drafted players. Heck, even Duchene is regressing on the ice.

I kind of wish I could put a gloss on everything Avs do as well.

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10-10-2012, 10:55 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
Richard Pracey's strong drafting record? I must keep forgetting how we ended up in the standings these past 4 years, because as it stands, his drafting has lead us to the bottom in the standings, high in the drafting.

Also, Stoa, Wolski, Stewart, Shattenkirk, Hishon & co. haven't really worked out that well for us. High end picks, traded away for assumed better players, or injury laden drafted players. Heck, even Duchene is regressing on the ice.

I kind of wish I could put a gloss on everything Avs do as well.
I don't think Stoa was a Pracey draft pick, but I might be mistaken. How are Shattenkirk and Hishon knocks against Pracey?

One bad year for Duchene a trend does not make.

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10-10-2012, 11:25 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
Richard Pracey's strong drafting record? I must keep forgetting how we ended up in the standings these past 4 years, because as it stands, his drafting has lead us to the bottom in the standings, high in the drafting.

Also, Stoa, Wolski, Stewart, Shattenkirk, Hishon & co. haven't really worked out that well for us. High end picks, traded away for assumed better players, or injury laden drafted players. Heck, even Duchene is regressing on the ice.

I kind of wish I could put a gloss on everything Avs do as well.
Yeah, this makes absolutely no sense. Wolski was a legit top 6 forward when he was traded, Stewart was a borderline first line forward and Shatty is the best one out of all the players you mentioned so far. If I'm not mistaken Pracey is not the gm and didn't trade them away.

With the expection of Stoa they all worked out well for the avs. Considering, the avs traded them when they're stock was at the highest. You can't expect all of them to turn out well.

Also I never knew having 1 bad year means you're regressing. I guess Malkin has been regressing since 09.

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10-11-2012, 04:13 AM
  #30
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I am not saying that those two are good. But isnt it kinda hard to evaluate them from a fans perspective?
That was other teams scouts opinion.

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10-11-2012, 04:58 AM
  #31
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North American's make up 77% of the league. I see no reason for teams not to concentrate their scouting on North America.

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10-11-2012, 04:09 PM
  #32
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Yeah, this makes absolutely no sense. Wolski was a legit top 6 forward when he was traded, Stewart was a borderline first line forward and Shatty is the best one out of all the players you mentioned so far. If I'm not mistaken Pracey is not the gm and didn't trade them away.

With the expection of Stoa they all worked out well for the avs. Considering, the avs traded them when they're stock was at the highest. You can't expect all of them to turn out well.

Also I never knew having 1 bad year means you're regressing. I guess Malkin has been regressing since 09.
I'm pretty sure Pracey, and WHOEVER the GM is at the respective point in time, would both have input into who was acquired at the draft, and who is acquired through trade.

Facts are, the club thought we needed upgrades on Stewart, Shattenkirk & co. (hey, I disagree, I think Shattenkirk would be far more valuable to our team than Johnson to be honest).

The next fact is, we have become a low rider in the standings. How people relate that to how good Pracey drafts is beyond me. If we drafted / traded / acquired / released magnificently over the past three to four years, I bet we wouldn't be picking 2nd and 3rd at the draft (would have been 10th this year).

Lastly, if you ask Duchene if his play improved, remained on par, or regressed this season, I'm sure he'd be player enough to tell you he regressed.

Why we sugar coat these things is beyond me.

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10-11-2012, 04:46 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I'm pretty sure Pracey, and WHOEVER the GM is at the respective point in time, would both have input into who was acquired at the draft, and who is acquired through trade.

Facts are, the club thought we needed upgrades on Stewart, Shattenkirk & co. (hey, I disagree, I think Shattenkirk would be far more valuable to our team than Johnson to be honest).

The next fact is, we have become a low rider in the standings. How people relate that to how good Pracey drafts is beyond me. If we drafted / traded / acquired / released magnificently over the past three to four years, I bet we wouldn't be picking 2nd and 3rd at the draft (would have been 10th this year).

Lastly, if you ask Duchene if his play improved, remained on par, or regressed this season, I'm sure he'd be player enough to tell you he regressed.

Why we sugar coat these things is beyond me.
How does a head scout get blamed with trading/acquiring/releasing?

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10-11-2012, 05:11 PM
  #34
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How does a head scout get blamed with trading/acquiring/releasing?
Head scouts don't just look for prospects to acquire at the draft. They'd also be filtering through the NHL, CHL, OHL, WHL, AHL, Europe for respective older players that may fit.

I recall Pracey was pretty big on "The Monster" is the Swedish Elite League if you recall.

The fact that he's head of this operation, means he should be held very accountable.

You think Sherman knows the market enough to select prospective players in trade acquisitions? The blokes and accountant.

Also, forget individual performance. Look at where our team is. That means our trading, drafting, buying out etc etc etc structures have been less than desirable.

Just like The Islanders. Some great players, but a team that is deficient in many, many areas.

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10-11-2012, 05:23 PM
  #35
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more players drafted by Colorado are playing in the NHL than any other franchise's draft picks. I think they're doing ok.

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10-11-2012, 05:30 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
Head scouts don't just look for prospects to acquire at the draft. They'd also be filtering through the NHL, CHL, OHL, WHL, AHL, Europe for respective older players that may fit.

I recall Pracey was pretty big on "The Monster" is the Swedish Elite League if you recall.

The fact that he's head of this operation, means he should be held very accountable.

You think Sherman knows the market enough to select prospective players in trade acquisitions? The blokes and accountant.

Also, forget individual performance. Look at where our team is. That means our trading, drafting, buying out etc etc etc structures have been less than desirable.

Just like The Islanders. Some great players, but a team that is deficient in many, many areas.
http://avalanche.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=32596

Look at that link, RICHARD PRACEY is DIRECTOR OF AMATEUR SCOUTING. That means that he is only on the "Prospect Scouting" side

Garth Joy, Dan Laperriere and Terry Martin are the Pro Scouts listed.

If you're going to be ruffling feathers around here, you might want to make sure that you've got the correct information.

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10-11-2012, 05:50 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
http://avalanche.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=32596

Look at that link, RICHARD PRACEY is DIRECTOR OF AMATEUR SCOUTING. That means that he is only on the "Prospect Scouting" side

Garth Joy, Dan Laperriere and Terry Martin are the Pro Scouts listed.

If you're going to be ruffling feathers around here, you might want to make sure that you've got the correct information.
Your not getting it. What I'm suggesting is that all these things would be done as a collective. Pracey would absolutely have his hands all over all the teams transactions, and to imply he doesn't would be ludicrous in my opinion.

If you watch the video of him at draft day, and him in the "behind the scenes" footage at draft, you'd find and note he's certainly a power broker when it comes to player movement.

Or do you think Garth Joy walks up to Pracey on or before draft day, and says, "dude, just so you know, your losing your 1st rounder, so we can acquire Varlamov".

Absolutely not.

Pracey is a senior part of our club, and has somewhat had a significant affect on the foundations we presently have.

Therefore, what I see at present, is a club who is stagnating around the bottom 33% of the league year in, year out. Therefore, Pracey's "overall" task of improving the team, has not been successful standings wise on average.

The team "does" seem to me at least in the forwards and in goal to be better, so I agree with most there. Then again, at the end of the day, I'd love to watch a team of nobody's, who could fight their way and compete, rather than a sprinkle of good players, surrounded by decent players who are basically the bottom tier of the cake.

Ruffling feathers - LoL

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10-11-2012, 06:09 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
Your not getting it. What I'm suggesting is that all these things would be done as a collective. Pracey would absolutely have his hands all over all the teams transactions, and to imply he doesn't would be ludicrous in my opinion.

If you watch the video of him at draft day, and him in the "behind the scenes" footage at draft, you'd find and note he's certainly a power broker when it comes to player movement.

Or do you think Garth Joy walks up to Pracey on or before draft day, and says, "dude, just so you know, your losing your 1st rounder, so we can acquire Varlamov".

Absolutely not.

Pracey is a senior part of our club, and has somewhat had a significant affect on the foundations we presently have.

Therefore, what I see at present, is a club who is stagnating around the bottom 33% of the league year in, year out. Therefore, Pracey's "overall" task of improving the team, has not been successful standings wise on average.

The team "does" seem to me at least in the forwards and in goal to be better, so I agree with most there. Then again, at the end of the day, I'd love to watch a team of nobody's, who could fight their way and compete, rather than a sprinkle of good players, surrounded by decent players who are basically the bottom tier of the cake.

Ruffling feathers - LoL
Yeah dude, you're getting all huffed/puffed up about what Rick Pracey does...which isn't even apart of what he does.

If he was "hands on" for Pro Scouting, that would be apart of his title, but it's not and he's not. He's simply just amateur scouting.

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Old
10-11-2012, 06:22 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
I'm pretty sure Pracey, and WHOEVER the GM is at the respective point in time, would both have input into who was acquired at the draft, and who is acquired through trade.

Facts are, the club thought we needed upgrades on Stewart, Shattenkirk & co. (hey, I disagree, I think Shattenkirk would be far more valuable to our team than Johnson to be honest).

Lastly, if you ask Duchene if his play improved, remained on par, or regressed this season, I'm sure he'd be player enough to tell you he regressed.

Why we sugar coat these things is beyond me.
So, any player getting traded for another means they weren't working out to their respective teams? They're re trades that win/win hockey deals.

ONE bad year is not a regressing, no matter how you look at it that logic flawed. Players have bad seasons MSL had an off year in 06 but bounced back in 07 hitting 102pts. Can a player regress and recover in a span of 2 years? The answer in no.

Fact is all those players you mentioned were serviceable/ good nhl'ers when they were traded, the rest is out of Pracey's hands.

You can't build a team, just be having great scouts, that's absurd. You need to trade/sign good players and get the right coaches. Above all it takes time.

I've seen enough of your posts, to know this isn't going anywhere. So why, don't just post the pens roster and compare it to the avs, to show how screwed up the teams really is.

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10-11-2012, 06:27 PM
  #40
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Ok, the debate is starting to steer in my direction as a individual, rather than remaining on topic , so I'll exit the conversation, but that doesn't mean I agree with you guys.

If Pracey was as good as some people state, I don't think we'd have selected 29th and 28th two out of the past three years.

I really don't get why people can't healthily debate a topic anymore without telling them to "go to another board", or that they are all "puffed up".

I was just trying to share an opinion, and have a discussion with you guys about what I thought was an interesting subject, but whatever....

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10-11-2012, 07:32 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
Ok, the debate is starting to steer in my direction as a individual, rather than remaining on topic , so I'll exit the conversation, but that doesn't mean I agree with you guys.

If Pracey was as good as some people state, I don't think we'd have selected 29th and 28th two out of the past three years.

I really don't get why people can't healthily debate a topic anymore without telling them to "go to another board", or that they are all "puffed up".

I was just trying to share an opinion, and have a discussion with you guys about what I thought was an interesting subject, but whatever....
Pracey was not head scout until after 2008. While he had some insight into the drafting of Gaunce, he was not head of amateur scouting.

The reasons for the Avs struggles are many and some stem from the draft focus (size rather than skill) and trades of the 2000's. Most teams are lucky to draft 1-2 quality NHLers every draft. The Avs look to have possibly 4+ from just the first year Pracey took over.

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10-11-2012, 07:42 PM
  #42
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Pracey was not head scout until after 2008. While he had some insight into the drafting of Gaunce, he was not head of amateur scouting.

The reasons for the Avs struggles are many and some stem from the draft focus (size rather than skill) and trades of the 2000's. Most teams are lucky to draft 1-2 quality NHLers every draft. The Avs look to have possibly 4+ from just the first year Pracey took over.
Pracey would have also had important feedback in regards to recent trades like the one that netted McGinn and Sgarbossa. So far that one looks good. Don't be too surprised when you find out how much Pracey was involved in getting Wilson.

It takes time to reshape a team let alone draft and trade for the proper pieces. Can't expect Pracey to turn things around in 3-4 years working with mostly youth and a sprinkling of vets.

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10-11-2012, 07:55 PM
  #43
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Ok, the debate is starting to steer in my direction as a individual, rather than remaining on topic , so I'll exit the conversation, but that doesn't mean I agree with you guys.

If Pracey was as good as some people state, I don't think we'd have selected 29th and 28th two out of the past three years.

I really don't get why people can't healthily debate a topic anymore without telling them to "go to another board", or that they are all "puffed up".

I was just trying to share an opinion, and have a discussion with you guys about what I thought was an interesting subject, but whatever....
No offense man, but you're being individualized because you're alone in some of your opinions around here.

Share all you want, but don't expect other people to kindly agree with something you say when they rather bluntly think the idea is drivel.

You responded to my post telling me that Pracey's drafting has led to us being bottom in the standings... but he's really only had 4 drafts to work for the Avs and as any knowledgeable fan wouild attest to, 5 years is the bare minimum to assess a draft's success/failure, which includes a scout's eye for talent from that draft and a team's success from said draft.

The mere fact that Pracey is going into his 5th full year manning the helm for our prospect pool and we can already definitively say that he hit a home run in 2009 is a very sound base to stand upon for describing Pracey as a strong scout.

But, believe what you will. I'm tired of the pointless debates, it's why I left the old Avs board and came here.

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10-11-2012, 08:05 PM
  #44
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No offense man, but you're being individualized because you're alone in some of your opinions around here.

Share all you want, but don't expect other people to kindly agree with something you say when they rather bluntly think the idea is drivel.

You responded to my post telling me that Pracey's drafting has led to us being bottom in the standings... but he's really only had 4 drafts to work for the Avs and as any knowledgeable fan wouild attest to, 5 years is the bare minimum to assess a draft's success/failure, which includes a scout's eye for talent from that draft and a team's success from said draft.

The mere fact that Pracey is going into his 5th full year manning the helm for our prospect pool and we can already definitively say that he hit a home run in 2009 is a very sound base to stand upon for describing Pracey as a strong scout.

But, believe what you will. I'm tired of the pointless debates, it's why I left the old Avs board and came here.
Okaaaaay....so what are we, and what are we not allowed to talk about and debate?

Honestly, that has made me feel very uncomfortable about what I post here in case it's not popular opinion.

Are you saying debating isn't allowed? Or are you saying I have to tow the party line with popular and public opinion, even if I disagree?

Also, suggesting my opinion (as you put it as bluntly) is drivel is harsh. Your better than that, aren't you?

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10-11-2012, 08:16 PM
  #45
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Okaaaaay....so what are we, and what are we not allowed to talk about and debate?

Honestly, that has made me feel very uncomfortable about what I post here in case it's not popular opinion.

Are you saying debating isn't allowed? Or are you saying I have to tow the party line with popular and public opinion, even if I disagree?

Also, suggesting my opinion (as you put it as bluntly) is drivel is harsh. Your better than that, aren't you?
You know me, I'm blunt most of the time. We've been through the ropes more rounds than I can count, if you can't handle a little bluntness from me then why are you quoting my posts?

Addressing the rest, this is the internet. Free speech, etc etc. Say what you want, but recognize that other people can respond in kind. Follow HF rules (listed somewhere?) and anything else is legal. My point in my previous post was that just because YOU feel that someone is individualizing you in responses is not because they are targeting you but because you are isolating yourself in your beliefs.

If you believe them, defend them. If you don't want to, don't. But don't make a post saying you're being individualized when you've already put yourself in that position for certain ideals (namely saying Pracey has failed or it's his fault for the place we're in).

It's also not fair to others for you to keep telling us that you don't want to wear rose colored glasses and everyone else being positive is.

I'm not trying to start a debate with you, I'm trying to make my point on a forum and hear other people's points. Debates I have no time for anymore.

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10-11-2012, 08:46 PM
  #46
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Well, I guess a forum's different for different people. I get on, to debate all things Avs, and I love doing it.

Now, for the individualizing things. It's not difficult to discuss a topic, or make a point about something (as you like it), or debating something (as I put it) without personalizing something.

It's the same reason politicians are thrown out of the senate / house of representatives in Australia and The UK. They go through years and years of study in order to "discuss" something, or make a point without regression, because they are supposed to be above that.

That's all. It's about respect mate. I'll always respect your opinion, even if it is vastly different to mine. In fact, I'd respect anyone's opinion on all things Avs.......hey, a good solid debate speeds up an overly long stale old off season. Gives me my Avs fix.

That said, Pracey is in a senior role when it comes to scouting, but in my view, player acquisition / retention / release. He'd be the foreman, and that's how the club portrays him, regardless of title.

I'm a Senior Business Banking Manager, but I also write Home Loans for the directors of the high end businesses I Bank. I could get some process worker to do it, but I need to be involved in all the operations of an individuals company / related parties.

According to y'all, Pracey is in his current 5th year when it comes to drafting, so I'm looking forward to seeing the fruit come to bare this season (being the 5th as you guys say).

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10-11-2012, 09:09 PM
  #47
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What part of my post gave you any inclination that I disagreed with what you said? I was stating that in light of our poor European scouting and Pracey's genuinely strong drafting record, I'd rather stick with players he is comfortable with than take shots in the dark in Europe given our lack of success scouting there.

this part
Quote:
if he feels more confident in young players from the CHL, USHL and similar leagues then I'd rather go with his gut than draft more Parshins, Holos' and Nermarks.
even your response now sounds like you'd rather settle than see improvement. it would have been different had you said i can see why the favor certain leagues but i would rather see them expand and improve in all facets.

i'm simply saying that i want improvement period, not interested in "they don't scout here or draft there often because they're better over here."
that's what a scouting department is for, to scout, evaluate and determine the relative talent of a player.
if they can't do it be it in europe or north america then why are they a scout?


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10-11-2012, 09:19 PM
  #48
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North American's make up 77% of the league. I see no reason for teams not to concentrate their scouting on North America.
only 2 American born captains have ever led their teams to the Stanley cup, does that mean you wouldn't want the best player on the team and the best leader being the captain because he was American and the stats aren't in his favor?

the rate of prospect failing vs succeeding is exceptionally high. even higher when you factor in expectations vs results.
you shouldn't limit yourself in the ability to improve your team.

you overspecialize and you breed in weakness to a fault.
i'm not saying the Avs should start deciding to draft all euros, i'm saying the previous misses shouldn't stop us from improving the scouting department for european players and we should be able to land some solid or better players from there.

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10-11-2012, 09:20 PM
  #49
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Well, I guess a forum's different for different people. I get on, to debate all things Avs, and I love doing it.

Now, for the individualizing things. It's not difficult to discuss a topic, or make a point about something (as you like it), or debating something (as I put it) without personalizing something.

It's the same reason politicians are thrown out of the senate / house of representatives in Australia and The UK. They go through years and years of study in order to "discuss" something, or make a point without regression, because they are supposed to be above that.

That's all. It's about respect mate. I'll always respect your opinion, even if it is vastly different to mine. In fact, I'd respect anyone's opinion on all things Avs.......hey, a good solid debate speeds up an overly long stale old off season. Gives me my Avs fix.

That said, Pracey is in a senior role when it comes to scouting, but in my view, player acquisition / retention / release. He'd be the foreman, and that's how the club portrays him, regardless of title.

I'm a Senior Business Banking Manager, but I also write Home Loans for the directors of the high end businesses I Bank. I could get some process worker to do it, but I need to be involved in all the operations of an individuals company / related parties.

According to y'all, Pracey is in his current 5th year when it comes to drafting, so I'm looking forward to seeing the fruit come to bare this season (being the 5th as you guys say).
Hey, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was trying to just pick on you, so if that's how I made you feel, then I do genuinely apologize. But I very strongly disagree with your assessment on what Pracey's Job description is with the Colorado Avalanche.

It's clear in his title is Director of Amateur Scouting. If anything, the input on trades/signings/acquisitions obviously comes in from GM Greg Sherman, but with input from the Pro Scouts (of which Pracey is not apart of) and perhaps the Director of Hockey Operations...

But Pracey being the Director of Amateur Scouting is pretty cut-and-dry in my eyes, his only focus is gathering information from his amateur scouting team and then putting together a list of players and executing the drafting of said players.

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10-11-2012, 09:20 PM
  #50
Lonewolfe2015
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Originally Posted by CalderKing21 View Post
even your response now sounds like you'd rather settle than see improvement. it would have been different had you said i can see why the favor certain leagues but i would rather see them expand and improve in all facets.
Gotcha, guess I assumed being a fan of the team people wouldn't expect me to not want to see improvement where possible.

I was posting under the assumption that if nothing were to change for whatever reason, I'd rather Pracey stick to what he's good at and gets results from. Just like last season, if he felt a numnber of CHLers were the BPAs, I would rather give them a shot than shoot for a homerun in Nermark every draft. The odds for our scouts are in the favor of where our most talented scouts are at (CHL?).

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