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Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

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Old
10-10-2012, 11:47 AM
  #51
pooleboy
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i know this would never get offered,but im pretty content with gards and jvr for the time being.

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:17 PM
  #52
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I agree with this 100%. I don't understand how someone could say JVR fills a bigger need for the Leafs than Schenn.

Their top-6 would either be:

Lupul-Bozak-Kessel
JVR-Grabovski-Kulemin

or

Lupul-Schenn-Kessel
MacA/Kadri-Grabovski-Kulemin
Simple really...

JvR-Bozak-Kessel > Lupul-Schenn-Kessel
Lupul-Grabovski-Kulemin > MacArthur-Grabovski-Kulemin

Heck, Bozak's better than Schenn at this point no matter which way you slice it... so you're looking at Schenn in the context of competing with Tim Connolly and Jay McClement for the 3rd line centre spot... and considering that the Leafs top line C is Tyler Bozak, they need Tim Connolly and his play-making abilities somewhere in the lineup for when Bozak fails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm talking about in general, there's no one in the Leafs system who has the potential to be a #1C.
That doesn't mean you make a bad deal for one who you A) don't have a position to develop in and B) is extremely far from being a #1C.

The Leafs lack a #1C, they should be looking for one, just like they lacked a big winger and got one. Brayden Schenn isn't a #1C, so unless there's a simple futures-for-futures trade that makes sense, then the Leafs would be best served to move along, and place their priorities on winning hockey games, not "what's in the cupboard".

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:23 PM
  #53
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Simple really...

JvR-Bozak-Kessel > Lupul-Schenn-Kessel
Lupul-Grabovski-Kulemin > MacArthur-Grabovski-Kulemin

Heck, Bozak's better than Schenn at this point no matter which way you slice it... so you're looking at Schenn in the context of competing with Tim Connolly and Jay McClement for the 3rd line centre spot... and considering that the Leafs top line C is Tyler Bozak, they need Tim Connolly and his play-making abilities somewhere in the lineup for when Bozak fails.



That doesn't mean you make a bad deal for one who you A) don't have a position to develop in and B) is extremely far from being a #1C.

The Leafs lack a #1C, they should be looking for one, just like they lacked a big winger and got one. Brayden Schenn isn't a #1C, so unless there's a simple futures-for-futures trade that makes sense, then the Leafs would be best served to move along, and place their priorities on winning hockey games, not "what's in the cupboard".
I'm not disagreeing with you, although you did fudge the lines a bit in your comparison, and I'd certainly prefer B. Schenn to Bozak for next year(and a similar comparison could be made with Macarthur and JVR), but it seems like there's not a single trade that could possibly make the Leafs a better team from your POV.(that's within reason, of course).

EDIT: Wait, did you say JVR-Bozak-Kessel is better than Lupul-Schenn-Kessel?


Last edited by Vankiller Whale: 10-10-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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Old
10-10-2012, 06:29 PM
  #54
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Wait, JVR has first line potential, but Brayden Schenn doesn't. I would love to hear the statistical analysis for this....

Reality check: Both players have a ton of potential and certainly enough to qualify as first line type players. Both haven't shown it at the NHL level with the exception of JVR's playoffs in 2011 and Schenn's playoffs in 2012.
They both have first line potential.

The difference is that JvR serves an immediate need right now (big winger who can play on our top line right away), Schenn doesn't.

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:35 PM
  #55
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you, although you did fudge the lines a bit in your comparison, and I'd certainly prefer B. Schenn to Bozak for next year(and a similar comparison could be made with Macarthur and JVR), but it seems like there's not a single trade that could possibly make the Leafs a better team from your POV.(that's within reason, of course).
I didn't "fudge" the lines, I fixed them. Having JvR allows the Leafs to break up Kessel & Lupul, which shouldn't have an extreme effect on the top line goal production, but should have a substantial effect on the top line's goals against. Having Lupul on the 2nd obviously increases that line's goal production, as would MacArthur on the 3rd. In terms of this year, there's really no comparison to be made between Bozak/Schenn, Bozak's the better player hands down. Remember, he centered one of the league's more productive lines last year. What did Schenn do? 18 points at the bottom of the lineup?

There are many possible trades that would make the Leafs better... just not ones that a Vancouver fan who's obsessed with setting the Leafs up for failure is going to like.

The parameters of said trades would involve an established #1 centre going to Toronto, or middle-of-the-lineup shutdown dman, or an experienced goaltender... you know deals that actually address needs. In terms of being within reason, the Leafs certainly aren't outside of reasonable to ask to trade a guy like MacArthur for an equivalent level and age, middle-of-the-lineup shutdown dman, especially when a piece like Franson would be on the block in that type of deal as well.

If there's no deal to be made that improves the Leafs, than so be it. There's a reason that trades don't happen everyday.

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:56 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
They both have first line potential.

The difference is that JvR serves an immediate need right now (big winger who can play on our top line right away), Schenn doesn't.
If you're expecting JVR to come in and play on your first line, expect to go into the season disappointed

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Old
10-10-2012, 06:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
If you're expecting JVR to come in and play on your first line, expect to go into the season disappointed
Not right away, the default will be Kessel / Lupul, but as they continue to struggle in keeping the puck in the offensive zone, somebody's going to realize that JvR can do it significantly better than Lupul can... and that Lupul gives the Grabovski line a far more dangerous shooter than MacArthur, with no real tradeoff.

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:56 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
If you're expecting JVR to come in and play on your first line, expect to go into the season disappointed
Disagree. The physical tools are there. Don't expect him to be offensively creative, he is not a great creator, but he has a strong shot, can play in the corners, is a decent headman on the rush and can hit a wide open guy when he's there. The kid has the ability to put up points in the right situation and in good health.

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Old
10-12-2012, 07:42 AM
  #59
81Leafs50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm going to say right now there is no way this trade would happen, because I am essentially taking back a previous trade and replacing it with one that makes more sense(to me, at least).

To Toronto: Brayden Schenn, Luke Schenn

To Philadelphia: Jake Gardiner, JVR

Toronto's winger depth is not bad, but their centre depth is bad enough that they want to put JVR there. Brayden Schenn would be a much better fit as their potential #1 C. Additionally, it makes more sense for Luke Schenn to be in Carlye's defensive system than in Philadelphia's, where his lack of foot speed will hamper his effectiveness.

Philadelphia trades a centre for a winger, thereby allowing Couturier to step up in the 2C role where he'll have more opportunities to show his offensive skill. They also trade a slower, defensive dman for an excellent young offensive dman much better suited to Philly's system.

And again, I know it will never happen, but I think if they had simply traded Brayden Schenn for Jake Gardiner in the first place, both teams would be better off.
At this point I will take Gardiner and JVR over Luke and Brayden.

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Old
10-12-2012, 08:21 AM
  #60
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This makes 0 sense. Might as well just make it Gardiner for Brayden Schenn.......

Why would either team retrade players that haven't even stepped on the ice yet for their new teams?

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Old
10-12-2012, 09:18 AM
  #61
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseonewillis View Post
This makes 0 sense. Might as well just make it Gardiner for Brayden Schenn.......

Why would either team retrade players that haven't even stepped on the ice yet for their new teams?
Because they aren't going to seperate the Schenn brothers just after reuniting them. Also, I think there's a very good chance Schenn will struggle in Philly's system, although that's more just speculation on my part.

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