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Old
10-11-2012, 12:48 AM
  #251
seventieslord
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That is really tough to answer.

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10-11-2012, 08:19 AM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
indeed he was.
After Tretiak was Fetisov the 2nd pick? Seems like that's where the next biggest discrepancy is.


EDIT: In fact, I think there is such a large difference between the quality/depth of defensemen available and forwards available that I would focus on dmen with my first few picks. Even if you're giving the other guy all the top forwards he's in trouble on the back end if you can lock up 3 or 4 of Fetisov, Vasiliev, Kasatonov, Lutchenko, and Ragulin.


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Old
10-11-2012, 10:00 AM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
After Tretiak was Fetisov the 2nd pick? Seems like that's where the next biggest discrepancy is.


EDIT: In fact, I think there is such a large difference between the quality/depth of defensemen available and forwards available that I would focus on dmen with my first few picks. Even if you're giving the other guy all the top forwards he's in trouble on the back end if you can lock up 3 or 4 of Fetisov, Vasiliev, Kasatonov, Lutchenko, and Ragulin.
even with two guys, you have to do a snake draft to be fair.

so after Tretiak, it was the Fetisov/Kharlamov duo next.

I agree that the next biggest gap is on defense, but it's not THAT huge, more like the difference between a Coffey and a Leetch.

on forward, there is a perceived gap but it's the smallest of the three, and Makarov could very well have been as good as Kharlamov or better. He was more dominant domestically and internationally, a decade later. (based on scoring finishes and awards)

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Old
10-11-2012, 11:12 AM
  #254
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
even with two guys, you have to do a snake draft to be fair.

so after Tretiak, it was the Fetisov/Kharlamov duo next.

I agree that the next biggest gap is on defense, but it's not THAT huge, more like the difference between a Coffey and a Leetch.

on forward, there is a perceived gap but it's the smallest of the three, and Makarov could very well have been as good as Kharlamov or better. He was more dominant domestically and internationally, a decade later. (based on scoring finishes and awards)
I'm thinking about it this way...
First pick is Tretiak (as it should be), next go Fetisov + Vasiliev, it almost forces the next guy to take 2 defensemen, if he doesn't, you can take 2 more and have a huge advantage on D and not even be that far behind on offense. Might look something like this...

Tretiak
Fetisov
Vasiliev

Kasatonov
Kharlamov
Lutchenko
Ragulin

Makarov
Mikhailov
Fedorov
Ovechkin

Zubov, Konstantinov or Sologubov
...


Maybe you even scare them into taking a 2nd D after Makarov and end up being able to snag Mikhailov for yourself?

If they do end up taking 2 D, then you get first crack at Kharlamov and Makarov.


EDIT: Might have to take it a little further than I originally posted, and snag one of those last 3 Dmen I listed.


Last edited by Hawkey Town 18: 10-11-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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Old
10-11-2012, 11:22 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I'm thinking about it this way...
First pick is Tretiak (as it should be), next go Fetisov + Vasiliev, it almost forces the next guy to take 2 defensemen, if he doesn't, you can take 2 more and have a huge advantage on D and not even be that far behind on offense. Might look something like this...

Tretiak
Fetisov
Vasiliev

Kasatonov
Kharlamov
Lutchenko
Ragulin

Makarov
Mikhailov
Fedorov
Ovechkin

Konstantinov or Sologubov
...


Maybe you even scare them into taking a 2nd D after Makarov and end up being able to snag Mikhailov for yourself?

If they do end up taking 2 D, then you get first crack at Kharlamov and Makarov.
I don't think you can take Vasiliev with Kharlamov/Makarov on the table, and regardless of trying to get a positional advantage, you just don't take Rags/Lutch if you can get any two of those next four top-100 forwards (not even including Firsov!)

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Old
10-11-2012, 11:27 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't think you can take Vasiliev with Kharlamov/Makarov on the table, and regardless of trying to get a positional advantage, you just don't take Rags/Lutch if you can get any two of those next four top-100 forwards (not even including Firsov!)
Oops, totally forgot about Firsov! If you stick to your guns I'm thinking it would eventually let you catch up, but I'll admit that I haven't played this out all the way, so I'm not sure. I'll see if I can take it further and see what happens.

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Old
10-11-2012, 12:15 PM
  #257
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Continued...

Tretiak
Fetisov
Vasiliev

Kasatonov
Kharlamov
Lutchenko
Ragulin

Makarov
Mikhailov
Firsov
Fedorov

Zubov
Sologubov
Ovechkin
Konstantinov

Davydov
Larionov
Maltsev
Petrov

Malkin
Bure
Datsyuk
Yakushev

Gonchar
Krutov
Kovalchuk
Balderis

Starshinov
Bobrov
Nabokov/Konovalenko


Krutov - Larionov - Makarov
Kharlamov - Malkin - Bure
Bobrov - Starshinov -Mikhailov

Kasatonov - Sologubov
Zubov - Davydov
Gonchar

Tretiak


Ovechkin - Fedorov - Maltsev
Firsov - Petrov - Kovalchuk
Yakushev - Datsyuk - Balderis

Fetisov - Vasiliev
Lutchenko - Ragulin
Konstantinov

Nabokov/Konovalenko




The first team is probably better, but I think most of it has to do with Tretiak...in fact I don't know if it's possible to win without Tretiak unless the other GM makes some big mistakes.

Here's a hypothetical...Which team would be better if the second team had an average to below average ATD starter in a 32 team draft? Let's say Tiny Thompson at absolute worst. How about a bottom tier starter like Lumley?


Now realizing that I basically just did an ATD with myself...this is a new low (or high?)


Last edited by Hawkey Town 18: 10-11-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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Old
10-11-2012, 01:59 PM
  #258
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I would suggest that after Tretiak goes first, the correct play would actually be Fetisov - Vasiliev. I would not suggest pushing the hand further as HT has proposed, but I think the gap between Vasiliev and the next best Soviet defenseman (theoretically Kazatonov) is bigger than the gap between Kharlamov and the next best Soviet forward.

I also wonder...why is Khabibulin not the second Russian goalie taken? He's easily better than Konovalenko and I think Nabokov, as well. In a draft with only one goalie per team, taking Fetisov - Vasiliev and then Bulin last might actually give team 2 a chance to overcome the Tretiak factor. Let's see:

Tretiak
Fetisov
Vasiliev

Kharlamov
Makarov
Firsov
Mikhailov

Kasatonov
Zubov
Fedorov
Ovechkin

Maltsev
Datsyuk
Lutchenko
Bure

Balderis
Konstantinov
Larionov
Ragulin

Yakushev
Petrov
Malkin
Kovalchuk

Gonchar
Davydov
Krutov
Sologubov

Mogilny
Kamensky
Khabibulin

Kharlamov - Petrov - Makarov
Yakushev - Maltsev - Balderis
Kamensky - Datsyuk - Mogilny

Kasatonov - Zubov
Konstantinov - Gonchar
Davydov

Tretiak

vs.

Firsov - Fedorov - Bure
Ovechkin - Larionov - Mikhailov
Krutov - Malkin - Kovalchuk

Fetisov - Vasiliev
Lutchenko - Ragulin
Sologubov

Khabibulin


I think those teams are a lot closer. In fact, I would have a hard time choosing between them.

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:18 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I think those teams are a lot closer. In fact, I would have a hard time choosing between them.
Interesting. Is it hard choosing between them now, or did I overstate the closeness?

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Old
10-11-2012, 02:55 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Interesting. Is it hard choosing between them now, or did I overstate the closeness?
I had to think about the teams you posted for a minute, but in the end I think the team with Tretiak was pretty clearly better. The difference in skaters didn't make up for the huge gap in goal. Of course, simply swapping Konovalenko for Khabibulin would make those teams closer, as well.

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10-11-2012, 03:28 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I had to think about the teams you posted for a minute, but in the end I think the team with Tretiak was pretty clearly better. The difference in skaters didn't make up for the huge gap in goal. Of course, simply swapping Konovalenko for Khabibulin would make those teams closer, as well.
I agree with this. Except for the "having to look at the teams for a minute." I think Tretiak is so far ahead of Konovalenko, it's an easy choice. My thoughts were the same as whoever posted earlier that the gap between Tretiak and any other Russian goalie is so big that whoever drafts him has to royally screw up later on not to have the better team.

I think either Khabibulin or Nabokov would be an upgrade over Konovalenko, but then I think Konovalenko is one of those guys who falls into the category as "overrated by comparing him to the smaller Soviet talent pool at the time rather than the European and International talent pool at large." There's a good argument that both Seth Martin and Leif Holmqvist were better goalies than Konovalenko, just among peers.

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Old
10-11-2012, 03:34 PM
  #262
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Thanks Sturm. Now let's talk Czechs and Slovaks. I think this one is a really tough call and really a couple of Jekyll and Hyde teams.

I doubt you'll be able to tell which is even mine, as not only is my young protege doing his homework, but I also tried to go off the top of my head which resulted in me missing a couple players.

My protege is convinced he got me this time, and he might be right, but attempting to agree on these things between the two of us is pointless, which is why I need you guys.


Pitner

Gaborik - Elias - Bondra
Palffy - Novy - Martinec
Ruzicka - Hlinka - Hejduk
Prospal - Bonk - Jaro Holik

Chara - Suchy
T Kaberle - Bubla
Svoboda - Spacek

Hasek
Holecek

Spares: Visnovsky, Plekanec, Satan, Stumpel

VS

Nedomansky – Nedved – Jagr
Jiri Holik – P Stastny – Demitra
B Holik – Pivonka – Hossa
Jirik – Golonka – M Stastny

Pospisil – Svehla
Kubina – Machac
Hamrlik – M Dvorak

Dzurilla
Kralik

Spares: Straka, A Stastny, Kuba, Rozsival

honorable mention for best players not taken...

Rucinsky - Lang - Sykora
Lukac - Reichel - Lala
Klima - Handzus - Dvorak
Zidlicky - Michalek
Smehlik - Hejda
Vokoun
Cechmanek


Last edited by seventieslord: 10-11-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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Old
10-11-2012, 03:54 PM
  #263
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Team 2 really screwed up by not taking Holecek, IMO. But wow, much better forwards.

So many guys playing out of position, are Elias and Jiri Holik really the best LWs that Czechoslovakia ever had?

I would have to do a more detailed comparison, but I'm leaning towards Team 1. Not only do they have much better goaltending, but they also have the best two defensemen in the series. But then I look at how terrible Team 1's first line is and I don't know. Gaborik and Bondra are going to have to draw straws to figure out who is going to cherry pick that shift

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10-11-2012, 04:13 PM
  #264
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Team 2 really screwed up by not taking Holecek, IMO. But wow, much better forwards.

So many guys playing out of position, are Elias and Jiri Holik really the best LWs that Czechoslovakia ever had?

I would have to do a more detailed comparison, but I'm leaning towards Team 1. Not only do they have much better goaltending, but they also have the best two defensemen in the series. But then I look at how terrible Team 1's first line is and I don't know. Gaborik and Bondra are going to have to draw straws to figure out who is going to cherry pick that shift
you might say team 2 lost the game of chicken on the Holecek front.

who do you see that is out of position? I count 3 + a "questionable" Elias on one team, and Bobby Holik as a "questionable" on the other.

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10-11-2012, 04:19 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
you might say team 2 lost the game of chicken on the Holecek front.

who do you see that is out of position? I count 3 + a "questionable" Elias on one team, and Bobby Holik as a "questionable" on the other.
Team 1:
Gaborik and Palffy were primarily RWs.
Ruzicka and Jaroslav Holik accomplished everything noteworthy that they did at C, I think.
I guess Elias is okay at center, it took him a few years, but he has finally become comfortable there. Terrible at faceoffs though.

Team 2:
Nedomansky was primarily a RW, right?
Bobby Holik accomplished everything that makes him worth drafting at C.
Demitra can play all 3 forward positions though.

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10-11-2012, 04:22 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Team 1:
Gaborik and Palffy were primarily RWs.
Ruzicka and Jaroslav Holik accomplished everything noteworthy that they did at C, I think.
I guess Elias is okay at center, it took him a few years, but he has finally become comfortable there. Terrible at faceoffs though.

Team 2:
Nedomansky was primarily a RW, right?
Bobby Holik accomplished everything that makes him worth drafting at C.
Demitra can play all 3 forward positions though.
Agree on all (and yeah I meant four plus Elias); except I personally think Bobby Holik's three full seasons as a productive NHL forward make him a passable winger, and I've always had Ned as "RW/LW", not sure where I got that though.

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10-11-2012, 04:58 PM
  #267
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What were the draft positions of Hasek and Holecek? I think this turns into an almost un-winable situation if you don't get one of those two, in a similar way it did with Tretiak and the USSR/Russia ATD...especially when they have 2 of Chara, Suchy, Pospisil on D (and here it happens to be the best 2).


PS: When's the Euro only ATD?

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10-11-2012, 05:11 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
What were the draft positions of Hasek and Holecek? I think this turns into an almost un-winable situation if you don't get one of those two, in a similar way it did with Tretiak and the USSR/Russia ATD...especially when they have 2 of Chara, Suchy, Pospisil on D (and here it happens to be the best 2).
Hasek was 1st, followed by Jagr/Stastny (two best value picks even if Stastny was not the best strategic), followed by Chara/Elias, then Pospisil/Hossa, then Martinec/Holecek.

Quote:
PS: When's the Euro only ATD?
I dunno, after we get through the Finns and Americans we can probably go back to all-Euro. Or even all non-canadian.

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10-11-2012, 05:22 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Hasek was 1st, followed by Jagr/Stastny (two best value picks even if Stastny was not the best strategic), followed by Chara/Elias, then Pospisil/Hossa, then Martinec/Holecek.



I dunno, after we get through the Finns and Americans we can probably go back to all-Euro. Or even all non-canadian.
IMO Nedomansky and Martinec went late, probably should've been the next two forwards taken after Stastny.

It would've been interesting to see how things unfolded if Team B took Holecek instead of Hossa.

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10-11-2012, 05:26 PM
  #270
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IMO Nedomansky and Martinec went late, probably should've been the next two forwards taken after Stastny.
Maybe. Hossa over Nedomansky becomes an easier and easier choice to make as time goes on.

Quote:
It would've been interesting to see how things unfolded if Team B took Holecek instead of Hossa.
nah, that's what made it interesting. Otherwise, it isn't! Look at the forwards on team Hasek/Holecek.

I'm... I mean, the person who made the next picks is, embarrassed to say who they were.

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10-11-2012, 05:52 PM
  #271
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Maybe. Hossa over Nedomansky becomes an easier and easier choice to make as time goes on.



nah, that's what made it interesting. Otherwise, it isn't! Look at the forwards on team Hasek/Holecek.

I'm... I mean, the person who made the next picks is, embarrassed to say who they were.
Sounds like he finally got you


PS: When he registers for this site please try to convince him to make his name Boy Wonder II

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10-11-2012, 06:06 PM
  #272
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Sounds like he finally got you


PS: When he registers for this site please try to convince him to make his name Boy Wonder II
He's on the site already... BudsBuster.

last week he stated his interest in joining the AAA draft when we start it.

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10-12-2012, 02:23 AM
  #273
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Stastny behind Nedved? What's the reasoning, distributing the firepower?

Also, Elias got taken ridiculously early.

And Prospal drafted over Lukac is just laughable. The worst is Spacek playing over Visnovsky - beyond insanity.

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10-12-2012, 02:30 AM
  #274
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I am fairly certain that team 2 belongs to seventies, simply because I can't see him taking Elias that early only to convert him to a center, and because team 2 has his man-crush, Roman Hamrlik.

Yeah, I think he got you by virtue of the goalie discrepancy, which is massive. Again, though, why is Dzurilla considered the 3rd best Czech goalie here? I would take Tomas Vokoun 3rd among Czech goalies without a second thought.

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10-12-2012, 10:09 AM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Stastny behind Nedved? What's the reasoning, distributing the firepower?
Yes, absolutely.

Quote:
Also, Elias got taken ridiculously early.
nah, not really.

Quote:
And Prospal drafted over Lukac is just laughable. The worst is Spacek playing over Visnovsky - beyond insanity.
Maybe, but Lukac is a RW.

and Visnovsky is not an all-rounder or even close to it. So there's good reason to play Spacek ahead.

That said, I did advise him that Visnovsky was likely the best defenseman he could have taken when he did (12th) and that Spacek was probably the next-best after that.

I think there is a HUGE drop from the 11th-best defenseman - whover that is - Kubina, Machac, Kaberle, Hamrlik, Dvorak, Svoboda - to Visnovsky at 12th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I am fairly certain that team 2 belongs to seventies, simply because I can't see him taking Elias that early only to convert him to a center, and because team 2 has his man-crush, Roman Hamrlik.
WHAT?

I mean, you're right, but when have I ever demonstrated a man crush on Hamrlik?

Quote:
Yeah, I think he got you by virtue of the goalie discrepancy, which is massive. Again, though, why is Dzurilla considered the 3rd best Czech goalie here? I would take Tomas Vokoun 3rd among Czech goalies without a second thought.
I dunno. Big game experience, for one thing. The fact that it's difficult to compare the two and canon admittedly has Dzurilla ahead, and not by a small margin, either.

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