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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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Old
10-12-2012, 07:09 AM
  #251
patnyrnyg
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Doubt this is true but it could be interesting..

With more canadian teams, revenue goes up and so would the cap.

Players get more money and more jobs

Or the NHL uses this to freeze salaries while effectively getting the players shares down
I admit I have no idea as to the credibility of this report. IF it is true and what Krishna says in this post is the motivation, then I like it. Shows they are actually working and thinking of ways to come to an agreement where both sides can be happy. HOWEVER, it does not adress the problems for the teams at the bottom of the revenue rankings. Bring in these 2 expansion teams, move 2-3 teams to better markets. Doesn't help the teams that are currently 20-26th. Yes, I know, they pocket expansion fees, relocation fees, but eventually that $ runs out.

IIRC, relocation and expansion fees are NOT currently part of HRR. Can someone confirm or deny, por favor.

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10-12-2012, 07:46 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by nogger View Post
I always lol when I hear about another team in Ontario, who would actually cheer for them?

Isn't everyone a TML or Sens fan?
Toronto is like the NYC of Canada. People move there from all over the country (and world really but thats not relevant to the discussion). The GTA adds 100K+ people every year. So if you are a fan of another team you would be more likely to go to Toronto2 instead of a Leafs game because Leafs tickets are hard to get. Secondly, there are many Anti-Leafs fans in Toronto. The Leafs have been wandering the desert for 45 years which is 5 years longer than the previous record desert wandering, so many people have become fans of random teams because they can't stand the Leafs so they would be quick to adopt Toronto2

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10-12-2012, 08:27 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by HockeySS19 View Post
I recently worked at a large technology company in the area. Just in my small department, there were at least 5 hockey fans that I knew of. When I was walking by a different department one morning, I eavesdropped on a conversation two people were having about hockey during the playoffs.

Then there's the GSHL. -- http://gshockey.com -- There are dozens upon dozens of teams registered each season. Take into account all of those players registered, plus the friends and family that they would bring along to an NHL game.

Then think of all of the Vancouverites who would travel down to see hockey, as has been mentioned already.

Just because minor league hockey doesn't sell out in the area doesn't mean NHL hockey couldn't. They are two different calibers of play. I would definitely travel 30 miles to see the NHL team (I already did this drive 2x a week to play hockey). I would not travel 30 miles to see a minor league team. But that's just me.

Many people in this area DO like hockey. If there were a team there, I'm pretty sure they'd check it out.
Compare that to the average person from Winnipeg who said they would commit to 3-5 years of season tickets if a team came back. The demand for hockey is far different and, my point is that it will be a tough sell in Seattle.

I deal with people from a large technology company in Seattle regularly (maybe the same one you are at) and the hardcore sports fan types don't even know who Steven Stamkos or Sidney Crosby are.

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10-12-2012, 08:40 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Compare that to the average person from Winnipeg who said they would commit to 3-5 years of season tickets if a team came back. The demand for hockey is far different and, my point is that it will be a tough sell in Seattle.

I deal with people from a large technology company in Seattle regularly (maybe the same one you are at) and the hardcore sports fan types don't even know who Steven Stamkos or Sidney Crosby are.
Very few American sports fans will know hockey player names unless they are diehard hockey fans though. It has nothing to do with Seattle but it doesn't mean a team wouldn't work there.

By your standards, the NHL will no longer expand in the US and all American teams will move to Canada because most Ameticans don't know who Sidney Crosby is?

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10-12-2012, 08:42 AM
  #255
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If the arena is in palce, Toronto will get the next NHL franchise (either transfer or expansion) The potential value of Toronto 2 dwarfs every other location.

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10-12-2012, 09:07 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by HockeySS19 View Post
Very few American sports fans will know hockey player names unless they are diehard hockey fans though. It has nothing to do with Seattle but it doesn't mean a team wouldn't work there.

By your standards, the NHL will no longer expand in the US and all American teams will move to Canada because most Ameticans don't know who Sidney Crosby is?
In a gate-driven league, why have teams in places where you need to give away free tickets to fill the place? Put teams where people want to pay for the product.

Could Seattle work? Maybe. But we know that Quebec City and Toronto2 will work. What kind of business avoids its strongest markets so they can panhandle for customers in places that don't care?

Much smarter to open a new Tim Horton's in dowtown Edmonton than dowtown El Paso.

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10-12-2012, 09:15 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
In a gate-driven league, why have teams in places where you need to give away free tickets to fill the place? Put teams where people want to pay for the product.

Could Seattle work? Maybe. But we know that Quebec City and Toronto2 will work. What kind of business avoids its strongest markets so they can panhandle for customers in places that don't care?

Much smarter to open a new Tim Horton's in dowtown Edmonton than dowtown El Paso.
See you don't get it. Putting hockey teams where people already like hockey doesn't create more fans. Putting teams where people don't follow, understand, or even like the sport thats what creates more fans. So you put teams in areas with a lot of people, hope the team wins and that creates a lot of new fans. so forget about teams in QC or Toronto and get on board with Mexico City

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10-12-2012, 09:20 AM
  #258
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I forgot to put the on the last one

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10-12-2012, 09:21 AM
  #259
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Toronto2 could succeed if they win very quickly. Think about it. Biggest city in the country, Original Six team with seemingly unlimited budget, sells out every game despite floundering for decades. New expansion team moves in, sucks as expected, then quickly becomes better than the older team, finally bringing the Cup to the area after decades of futility. Heated local rivalry blossoms, and both teams sell out regularly.

Ridiculous? New Yorkers don't think so.

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10-12-2012, 09:32 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Chardo View Post
Toronto2 could succeed if they win very quickly. Think about it. Biggest city in the country, Original Six team with seemingly unlimited budget, sells out every game despite floundering for decades. New expansion team moves in, sucks as expected, then quickly becomes better than the older team, finally bringing the Cup to the area after decades of futility. Heated local rivalry blossoms, and both teams sell out regularly.

Ridiculous? New Yorkers don't think so.
Huh? Yankees were here first... Mets are a joke.

Giants and Jets sell out every game pretty much equally.
Knicks were here first... Nets are a joke.
Rangers were here first, Islanders were good 20 years ago and struggle to get over 13k to show up. The Devils are more successful and get about 15k per game despite 3 cups, 9 division championships, and 5 finals appearances since 95... The Rangers sell out because of their location. If it was the New York Devils playing at MSG, tickets would be impossible to get.

Just not sure what you were getting at.

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10-12-2012, 09:33 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by aqib View Post
See you don't get it. Putting hockey teams where people already like hockey doesn't create more fans. Putting teams where people don't follow, understand, or even like the sport thats what creates more fans. So you put teams in areas with a lot of people, hope the team wins and that creates a lot of new fans. so forget about teams in QC or Toronto and get on board with Mexico City
I don't get it? Are you kidding? You may not have noticed but, the league is shut down right now because they are losing money.

When you are losing money, how in the world does it make sense to lose more by begging Mexicans to buy tickets? That would be incredibly stupid.

Who gives a **** about creating more fans? Sell tickets to the ones that want them - once the league is maximizing profits in good markets they can experiment with places where nobody cares. What sense does it make to do more of the same that has caused a shut down?

edit: Sorry, didn't see the

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10-12-2012, 09:41 AM
  #262
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Is this legit? Don't have time to read through this all right now.

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10-12-2012, 09:41 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Much smarter to open a new Tim Horton's in dowtown Edmonton than dowtown El Paso.
Not necessarily. Probably have 20 Tim Horton's in downtown Edmonton. In El Paso? Probably none. People will show up to check it out and if they like it keep coming back.

But, I can see your point in your other post. If I have $50,000 to start a franchise and my livelihood is relying on that franchise, not going to gamble on El Paso. If I am liquid for a million dollars and if the franchise doesn't work it wont really effect me, then I take the shot with El Paso hoping to make it big.


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10-12-2012, 09:46 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by njdevil26 View Post
Huh? Yankees were here first... Mets are a joke.

Giants and Jets sell out every game pretty much equally.
Knicks were here first... Nets are a joke.
Rangers were here first, Islanders were good 20 years ago and struggle to get over 13k to show up. The Devils are more successful and get about 15k per game despite 3 cups, 9 division championships, and 5 finals appearances since 95... The Rangers sell out because of their location. If it was the New York Devils playing at MSG, tickets would be impossible to get.

Just not sure what you were getting at.
Uhm, until 1996ish, NY was more of a Mets town. Look at the attendance numbers pre-96. Now, most people are 26, 27 and under are Yanks fans because seeing the Yanks make the play-offs is all they know.

NY is a bandwagon town when it comes to BBall. When the Knicks are good, they become the hottest ticket in town. However, when they are down they get abandoned. People start watching other games on TNT, ABC, ESPN, rather than the Knicks. In down years, MSG only fills up when the Lakers or a superstar is coming and people are going to see the other team. Don't get me wrong, they still have a lot of die-hard fans, but most of the hype happens with the bandwagoners.

Very true on the Rangers-Devils analogy. BUT, even when the Isles were good their attendance declined. Think it peaked in 81 and dropped slightly in 82 and 83.

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10-12-2012, 09:49 AM
  #265
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Is this legit? Don't have time to read through this all right now.
Sounds like baseless claims to be honest

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10-12-2012, 10:03 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Chardo View Post
Toronto2 could succeed if they win very quickly. Think about it. Biggest city in the country, Original Six team with seemingly unlimited budget, sells out every game despite floundering for decades. New expansion team moves in, sucks as expected, then quickly becomes better than the older team, finally bringing the Cup to the area after decades of futility. Heated local rivalry blossoms, and both teams sell out regularly.

Ridiculous? New Yorkers don't think so.

This describes the NY market after expansion brought a second team. Same thing could happen in Toronto.

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10-12-2012, 10:17 AM
  #267
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Another reason I think a second team in Toronto could work is because of all the Toronto resident who hates the leafs

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10-12-2012, 10:22 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Uhm, until 1996ish, NY was more of a Mets town. Look at the attendance numbers pre-96. Now, most people are 26, 27 and under are Yanks fans because seeing the Yanks make the play-offs is all they know.

NY is a bandwagon town when it comes to BBall. When the Knicks are good, they become the hottest ticket in town. However, when they are down they get abandoned. People start watching other games on TNT, ABC, ESPN, rather than the Knicks. In down years, MSG only fills up when the Lakers or a superstar is coming and people are going to see the other team. Don't get me wrong, they still have a lot of die-hard fans, but most of the hype happens with the bandwagoners.

Very true on the Rangers-Devils analogy. BUT, even when the Isles were good their attendance declined. Think it peaked in 81 and dropped slightly in 82 and 83.

Not to get completely off topic here, but NY has never been more of a Mets town. There were a few years where Mets had higher attendance, and fan support seemed louder (winning/losing drive both of these factors), but there have always been vastly more Yankees fans. NY will always be a Yankees town, but there's still plenty of room for the Mets to be successful.

FYI, Islanders attendance peaked in 1985, and was near sellout until the late '80s. Wasn't until the late 80's and early 90's when they sucked and had unbelievable ownership issues that attendance started to decline.

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10-12-2012, 10:29 AM
  #269
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Not to get completely off topic here, but NY has never been more of a Mets town. There were a few years where Mets had higher attendance, and fan support seemed louder (winning/losing drive both of these factors), but there have always been vastly more Yankees fans. NY will always be a Yankees town, but there's still plenty of room for the Mets to be successful.

FYI, Islanders attendance peaked in 1985, and was near sellout until the late '80s. Wasn't until the late 80's and early 90's when they sucked and had unbelievable ownership issues that attendance started to decline.
You do not know what you are talking about when it comes to the Mets/Yankees. They were the bigger team until about 15-16 years ago.

As for the Isles, you might be right on which years they peaked attendance wise. I just remember being surprised that their cup years were not their best. Their attendance started to skid following the 87-88 season, had a few peaks here and there, but has been a problem for the most part for the past 20 years or so.

I would say up until about 98-99ish, the pecking order in this town was

1) Giants
2) Yankees
3) Mets
4) Jets
5) Knicks
6) Rangers
7-9) Isles, Devils, Nets.

Pre-96, you would swap the Mets and Yanks.

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10-12-2012, 10:30 AM
  #270
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I'm was expecting this. It's Bettman's MO. His first wave of expansion/relocations came when he was chasing .doc money and following America's migration to the south. (Which came about 50 years after the other leagues, so the NHL was behind the times on that.)

Now Bettman is chasing the Loonie.

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10-12-2012, 10:31 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Not necessarily. Probably have 20 Tim Horton's in downtown Edmonton. In El Paso? Probably none. People will show up to check it out and if they like it keep coming back.

But, I can see your point in your other post. If I have $50,000 to start a franchise and my livelihood is relying on that franchise, not going to gamble on El Paso. If I am liquid for a million dollars and if the franchise doesn't work it wont really effect me, then I take the shot with El Paso hoping to make it big.
This, it's all about calculated risk taking.

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10-12-2012, 10:31 AM
  #272
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I like this, two expansion teams (Especially in markets guarenteed to make money and add to revenue sharing) is something I thought would happen by 2015. I don't see any reason to not believe this either, the source is reputable, the two places mentioned both will have arena's built by 2015.

What I don't like is I would prefer another Ontario team be in a non-GTA area (Not non-Golden Horseshoe team because the only markets left are Golden Horseshoe) and that probably won't happen for a long time (2030s-40s probably) if this expansion happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
The Nats are FINALLY drawing and it took a division title and the two biggest phenoms to come along in 30 years to do so. The Caps have the biggest band-wagon fan base in the league. 10 years ago, when they played the Pens, Flyers, Rangers, the place was 1/2 full with opposing fans.
Well this can't be true considering the Pens arena was half full with opposing fans 10 years ago, I can't imagine what fans they had were going to other buildings.

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10-12-2012, 10:33 AM
  #273
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I like this, two expansion teams (Especially in markets guarenteed to make money and add to revenue sharing) is something I thought would happen by 2015. I don't see any reason to not believe this either, the source is reputable, the two places mentioned both will have arena's built by 2015.

What I don't like is I would prefer another Ontario team be in a non-GTA area (Not non-Golden Horseshoe team because the only markets left are Golden Horseshoe) and that probably won't happen for a long time (2030s-40s probably) if this expansion happens.



Well this can't be true considering the Pens arena was half full with opposing fans 10 years ago, I can't imagine what fans they had were going to other buildings.
True on that with the pens, but definitely on the flyers and rangers.

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10-12-2012, 10:35 AM
  #274
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I would rather see Pheonix relocated to a viable market, and possibly Coumbus (I would say NYI, but I don't think lil Garry will ever pull a team out of the NYC area) as well, before we add two more teams. Having these teams relocated in Quebec City and somewhere in Southern Ontario would help strengthen the league financially, and also help to aid other struggling teams in the long term. As long as we do this and don't place anymore teams in crap markets in the States, we should be fine.
I am all for two more teams in Canada... But not 2 more teams in the NHL. The talent is already very diluted with the KHL and other European leagues grabbing lots of talents.

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10-12-2012, 10:38 AM
  #275
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I am all for two more teams in Canada... But not 2 more teams in the NHL. The talent is already very diluted with the KHL and other European leagues grabbing lots of talents.
Those leagues are grabbing the lower end-talent (when judging against other pros). Yes, Radulov left, but is he really that big of a loss? Maybe some lower-end 2nd liners head over there to get 1st line money/minutes. However those guys are not that big of a hit for the league.

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