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10-12-2012, 10:56 AM
  #976
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
NHL will only lose 100k( security deposit) if they dont get the WC in. dont know people think its a starting point for the season.
I wasn't talking in terms of them losing money (though would surely miss out on more than the $100k deposit). It was more in terms of that date is earmarked by so many and it is the biggest thing the NHL has going for it. If it gets close enough and no deal has been made, someone will crack in time for a Winter Classic opening day.

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10-12-2012, 12:19 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
No, the owners will lose millions in revenue through not having a WC. It's not rocket science.
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I wasn't talking in terms of them losing money (though would surely miss out on more than the $100k deposit). It was more in terms of that date is earmarked by so many and it is the biggest thing the NHL has going for it. If it gets close enough and no deal has been made, someone will crack in time for a Winter Classic opening day.
well no kidding. just like the millions of dollars the owners are losing in games lost in the first 2 weeks. The game would generate a ton of money if played, but you cant lose what you dont have.

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10-12-2012, 12:34 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
well no kidding. just like the millions of dollars the owners are losing in games lost in the first 2 weeks. The game would generate a ton of money if played, but you cant lose what you dont have.
People don't seem to get this.. Just like people that can't seem to differentiate between Revenue and Profit

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10-12-2012, 12:42 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
People don't seem to get this.. Just like people that can't seem to differentiate between Revenue and Profit
...or correctly understand the inextricable link between the two...

The NHL, by its own admission, has experienced record revenues over the course of this CBA, and those revenues are only expected to increase further in the future. Under the same system, some clubs, most notably Toronto, have seen record profits, while other clubs, many of which are spending far more than required in the system, had at best broken even or undergone modest losses. However, and this is the player's underlying point, I think, it is pretty clear that the record revenues generated by the league are enough for every owner to make at least a modest profit with an improved system of revenue (or, perhaps, profit) sharing.

How'd I do?

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10-12-2012, 12:56 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
...or correctly understand the inextricable link between the two...

The NHL, by its own admission, has experienced record revenues over the course of this CBA, and those revenues are only expected to increase further in the future. Under the same system, some clubs, most notably Toronto, have seen record profits, while other clubs, many of which are spending far more than required in the system, had at best broken even or undergone modest losses. However, and this is the player's underlying point, I think, it is pretty clear that the record revenues generated by the league are enough for every owner to make at least a modest profit with an improved system of revenue (or, perhaps, profit) sharing.

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Good sans the last part. I haven't seen revenue numbers other than the Forbes figures which are a year or two behind.. But I don't think the profiting clubs are making enough to ensure every owner is breaking even or profiting.. Though, 53 or 54 percent could pretty much ensure what you said.. But I think 50/50 split with the current revenue sharing program would do a bit better

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10-12-2012, 12:57 PM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
People don't seem to get this.. Just like people that can't seem to differentiate between Revenue and Profit
Eh. When I worked for hourly pay and I missed a day of work I considered it lost money. If the league and players don't have a similar mindset concerning missed games I think they're crazy.

Given how negotiations have been going, the evidence points to crazy.

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10-12-2012, 12:58 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Eh. When I worked for hourly pay and I missed a day of work I considered it lost money. If the league and players don't have a similar mindset concerning missed games I think they're crazy.

Given how negotiations have been going, the evidence points to crazy.
Definitely crazy

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10-12-2012, 01:05 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Eh. When I worked for hourly pay and I missed a day of work I considered it lost money. If the league and players don't have a similar mindset concerning missed games I think they're crazy.

Given how negotiations have been going, the evidence points to crazy.
At first I figured a deal would get done. I assumed that they couldn't all be stupid and/or stubborn enough--for the record, I think its both, not simply the latter--to lose an entire season, again.

Not anymore. I'm about 2 weeks from giving up--which is probably premature, but I just can't see them going from zero discussion of the core issues to an 11th hour deal. That would essentially require a full-scale collapse by one side (the players), because a last-minute proposal that made some concessions on HRR would simply encourage the harder-line owners to push for something closer to their agenda (sub-50/50 splits, 5 years ELCs, 10 / 30 for RFA rights, etc.)

The only way this thing gets fixed is if the players come back with a proposal that features a significant drop (54/55?) the first year, tiered down to 50 over the life of the deal. The owners could then respond by demanding a slightly larger drop (53 or 54) the first year, in exchange for some concessions on other issues. People seem to be forgetting that the owners have a long list of fairly radical demands re: contracts. I don't buy that this thing can get wrapped up simply by solving the HRR, because I think some of the owners probably care nearly as much about ELCs and other similar issues.

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10-12-2012, 01:06 PM
  #984
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This is why I get annoyed at the business board..

Some guy is seriously trying to argue that baseball has the best parity system in the league

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10-12-2012, 01:08 PM
  #985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Eh. When I worked for hourly pay and I missed a day of work I considered it lost money. If the league and players don't have a similar mindset concerning missed games I think they're crazy.

Given how negotiations have been going, the evidence points to crazy.
Opportunity Cost.

Nobody there seems to care.

Realistically though the opportunity cost of this lockout isn't just tethered to the lost revenue from the opening stages of the regular season (when league-wide revenue theoretically would be its second best of the hockey year behind the playoffs), but you're also losing more in terms of potential income from fans becoming disenfranchised by the NHL and never returning.

This is obviously going to hurt the smaller markets harder.

Basically, this lockout is a war to see how best to save struggling franchises. Meanwhile, it's likely coming very close to destroying them. The NHL better hope it's worth it because, should this calculated risk not pay off, they're likely to lose out anyway. And when the NHL loses out in this manner, the players will also lose.

The lockout is more for chest beating than anything tangible.

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Old
10-12-2012, 01:14 PM
  #986
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The league could still make record revenues if they get a deal done soon.. After that point passes, which I'd say is about October 20th-25th, I'd say that's when they go hardcore with meetings

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10-12-2012, 01:20 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
This is why I get annoyed at the business board..

Some guy is seriously trying to argue that baseball has the best parity system in the league
It does though. Football has the best parity just due to the number of games played, but baseball has the best model for it imo. The smaller market teams are forced to compete by building through the draft instead of a salary floor forcing them to sign over priced free agents which does nothing but perpetuate their sucking and lose the team money. The reason why Pittsburgh/KC haven't been relevant in forever is because their grooming of prospects has been awful, not because they can't spend. Yes having money helps but even in a salary cap world the big markets will still be able to spend to the moon and other teams can't keep up. I understand people like to hate on baseball but the small markets are survivable business models.

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10-12-2012, 01:23 PM
  #988
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It does though. Football has the best parity just due to the number of games played, but baseball has the best model for it imo. The smaller market teams are forced to compete by building through the draft instead of a salary floor forcing them to sign over priced free agents which does nothing but perpetuate their sucking and lose the team money. The reason why Pittsburgh/KC haven't been relevant in forever is because their grooming of prospects has been awful, not because they can't spend. Yes having money helps but even in a salary cap world the big markets will still be able to spend to the moon and other teams can't keep up. I understand people like to hate on baseball but the small markets are survivable business models.
Actually, they aren't forced to compete at all. The generous luxury tax allows them to sit in last place for a decade and still turn a healthy profit.

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Old
10-12-2012, 01:27 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by TheIceman26 View Post
It does though. Football has the best parity just due to the number of games played, but baseball has the best model for it imo. The smaller market teams are forced to compete by building through the draft instead of a salary floor forcing them to sign over priced free agents which does nothing but perpetuate their sucking and lose the team money. The reason why Pittsburgh/KC haven't been relevant in forever is because their grooming of prospects has been awful, not because they can't spend. Yes having money helps but even in a salary cap world the big markets will still be able to spend to the moon and other teams can't keep up. I understand people like to hate on baseball but the small markets are survivable business models.
The small markets are surviving by reaping the luxury tax money.

I don't consider a league where every 5 or so years a team has a good year then sells off their assets one that is good for everyone. Of Oakland, Baltimore, and Washington, at least 2 out of the three won't make the playoffs next year..

5 bad years and then one good one isn't good for any league

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Old
10-12-2012, 01:33 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Actually, they aren't forced to compete at all. The generous luxury tax allows them to sit in last place for a decade and still turn a healthy profit.
Conspiracy theorists in the DC/Baltimore area have a decent amount of evidence/stories showing Orioles owner did this on purpose for a long time.

I wish the the parties would just suck it up and start hammering out the economic issues. Determing how many rolls of TP each stall can get per year is neat, but that crap can get taken care of quickly. It seems like both sides are stalling while still being able to tell their respective groups they're doing something.

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10-12-2012, 01:37 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Conspiracy theorists in the DC/Baltimore area have a decent amount of evidence/stories showing Orioles owner did this on purpose for a long time.

I wish the the parties would just suck it up and start hammering out the economic issues. Determing how many rolls of TP each stall can get per year is neat, but that crap can get taken care of quickly. It seems like both sides are stalling while still being able to tell their respective groups they're doing something.
Pun intended?

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10-12-2012, 01:44 PM
  #992
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Pun intended?
No, but that works out nicely.

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10-12-2012, 01:47 PM
  #993
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Beef, can you make a new thread?

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10-12-2012, 02:01 PM
  #994
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Beef, can you make a new thread?
CBA Negotiations Part 2: 1000 Posts Later, Still Lots of Nothing

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10-12-2012, 02:02 PM
  #995
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onit

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