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Old
10-12-2012, 09:42 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm amused by the amount of spite on the prospect board. So many people are up in arms about Kreider being ranked that high.

Kreider is a student of the game. You can teach positioning and strategy. You can't teach 6'3 225lbs with elite wheels and a quick release. Tortorella has turned dozens of players with holes in their game into 200ft players. If he needs help offensively, he has one of the premier power forwards in the NHL to learn from. Can't ask for a better situation.
Kreider has been one of the most "hated" prospects on HF since the 2009 WJC. In my opinion he is the perfect example of why stat-surfing is a completely useless way to evaluate a prospect.

Your summary of his situation is perfect. Torts' influence was already enough, but I think the impact of having Nash as a mentor does not get talked about enough. We've got Stepan (and Del Zotto) learning from Richards, and now Kreider has a perfect example in Nash.

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10-12-2012, 10:16 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm amused by the amount of spite on the prospect board. So many people are up in arms about Kreider being ranked that high.

Kreider is a student of the game. You can teach positioning and strategy. You can't teach 6'3 225lbs with elite wheels and a quick release. Tortorella has turned dozens of players with holes in their game into 200ft players. If he needs help offensively, he has one of the premier power forwards in the NHL to learn from. Can't ask for a better situation.
I am "pro" Kreider and loved what I saw last spring.

That being said, his "Hockey sense" or lack thereof has always been considered a weakness in prior scouting reports. You can teach defense and positioning but that inate ability to always be in the right place is posessed by every star in this league and cannot be taught IMO.

Many who love the kid try to say that his drive and hockey sense will pick up now that he is playing with better players. He was "bored" before. I am not 100% sure I buy that.

The skills are elite, but we can all recite an endless list of players with elite skills who never reached their potential.

I need to see alot more before I am comvined that this is a perennial 35 goal scorerr we are watching.

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10-12-2012, 11:46 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
I am "pro" Kreider and loved what I saw last spring.

That being said, his "Hockey sense" or lack thereof has always been considered a weakness in prior scouting reports. You can teach defense and positioning but that inate ability to always be in the right place is posessed by every star in this league and cannot be taught IMO.

Many who love the kid try to say that his drive and hockey sense will pick up now that he is playing with better players. He was "bored" before. I am not 100% sure I buy that.

The skills are elite, but we can all recite an endless list of players with elite skills who never reached their potential.

I need to see alot more before I am comvined that this is a perennial 35 goal scorerr we are watching.
Hockey sense is one of those things that carries a lot of weight in some instances, and less in others. That's due in large part to how subjective it is as a metric. How does one really categorize 'hockey sense?' If it's the ability to read a play, or make a smart pass, or find the puck in a prime location, then Kreider has good hockey sense. He's demonstrated the ability to do those things. When Stepan sprung him for a semi-breakaway in the Caps series, it was Kreider who read the play and saw that the defense was going for a change and he had the space. It was Kreider who jumped in on the forecheck, out worked a defender, and tee'd the puck up perfectly for Girardi to rip a goal from the point. So what are we really judging a players hockey sense on?

Point being, Kreider has the tools at his disposal that will allow him to minimize any alleged shortcomings in his hockey sense. He doesn't need to find a seam to get to the net like a Gaborik or Kessel. He can make a seam by out-muscling the defense or simply blowing by him. Hockey sense, to me, is the combination of knowing the game and being able to maximize your tools to achieve the maximum results. Kreider can do that as well as anyone I've seen come through this system. Much of the ballyhoo about his hockey sense is still leftover criticism from the fact that he was drafted out of the NE Prep system and had never played at an 'elite' level.

Sure, you can find an endless number of players with elite skills who never reached their potential, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one of them who shrugged off scoring a hat trick because it was a preseason game, or that was dropped into the middle of a playoff game and managed to succeed.

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10-12-2012, 12:54 PM
  #54
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These rankings depend a lot on hypotheticals. Whether or not Kreider deserves to be ahead of Ryan Murray is one thing but when the rankings come out it's bound to collide with the parochial viewpoints of other fans who are sure that one of their players is getting disrespected. Time is what will ultimately tell and nobody--or hardly anybody goes back and looks at the rankings from 5 years ago to see how they worked out. It's almost all about the rankings 'now'.

From a Rangers perspective though Kreider is definitely being penciled in as a top 6 power/scoring forward--it may take him a year or two to cement that status but last year's playoffs showed if nothing else he's more than capable of competing and producing at a high level. The combination of size, skating (elite speed), hands and quick release are a real rare combination in one player--there can't be more than 10 NHL players who are really in the same ballpark with Chris. But all that is still in the process of developing. Coaching is going to be key and CK seems to be a very coachable and eager to learn player.

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10-12-2012, 01:06 PM
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What? you act as if that's not so special ...

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10-12-2012, 01:41 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm amused by the amount of spite on the prospect board. So many people are up in arms about Kreider being ranked that high.

Kreider is a student of the game. You can teach positioning and strategy. You can't teach 6'3 225lbs with elite wheels and a quick release. Tortorella has turned dozens of players with holes in their game into 200ft players. If he needs help offensively, he has one of the premier power forwards in the NHL to learn from. Can't ask for a better situation.
A quick trip to hockeydb will do that to a clueless idiot.

Yet Baertschi is the best thing since sliced bread after one year and everyone agrees.

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10-13-2012, 04:42 AM
  #57
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i didn't even think about how big of a potential impact nash could have on kreider. couldn't have been a better time for us to acquire him. there are a lot of kids on this team that can learn from his talent.

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10-13-2012, 10:40 AM
  #58
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As regards Nash and Krieder--I have personally never understood why people place so much importance on prospects having superstars to learn from as, generally speaking, most professional sports franchises have at least one truly elite player on their rosters at all times but this rarely translates to young players appropriating their skill sets.

And, to be quite honest, I'm not really sure how Nash's game really applies to Chris Krieder's. This may be my own ignorance of Nash's career to date, but they seem like totally different players to me.

Coaching--that's what generally tends to be critical in the development of young talent across all the major professional sports. Torts does seem to have a way to maximize talent for young players so that is something to be excited about.

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10-13-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
As regards Nash and Krieder--I have personally never understood why people place so much importance on prospects having superstars to learn from as, generally speaking, most professional sports franchises have at least one truly elite player on their rosters at all times but this rarely translates to young players appropriating their skill sets.

And, to be quite honest, I'm not really sure how Nash's game really applies to Chris Krieder's. This may be my own ignorance of Nash's career to date, but they seem like totally different players to me.

Coaching--that's what generally tends to be critical in the development of young talent across all the major professional sports. Torts does seem to have a way to maximize talent for young players so that is something to be excited about.
I used to feel the same way. In 2008 the Penguins came to my college and held an open practice. After some general drills they broke into small groups. One group was led by Sidney Crosby. He was working on one-timers, taking the position at the side of the net feeding his teammates perfect passes and critiquing their shots.

Now, I recognize that this was Sidney Crosby, the best player in the league at that time (and arguably today). I also have not been to a NYR practice. However, I do believe that players can learn a ton from their peers, often on a more detailed level what they would from a coach.

Torts will be great at getting Kreider to play into the system, and in showing him what to do away from the puck. But Nash, with a similar build and speed, can teach Kreider how to use his body and maximize his reach. Every day Kreider will be watching and skating with one of the most creative players in the game. I think there's value to that.

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10-13-2012, 11:30 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Hockey sense is one of those things that carries a lot of weight in some instances, and less in others. That's due in large part to how subjective it is as a metric. How does one really categorize 'hockey sense?' If it's the ability to read a play, or make a smart pass, or find the puck in a prime location, then Kreider has good hockey sense. He's demonstrated the ability to do those things. When Stepan sprung him for a semi-breakaway in the Caps series, it was Kreider who read the play and saw that the defense was going for a change and he had the space. It was Kreider who jumped in on the forecheck, out worked a defender, and tee'd the puck up perfectly for Girardi to rip a goal from the point. So what are we really judging a players hockey sense on?

Point being, Kreider has the tools at his disposal that will allow him to minimize any alleged shortcomings in his hockey sense. He doesn't need to find a seam to get to the net like a Gaborik or Kessel. He can make a seam by out-muscling the defense or simply blowing by him. Hockey sense, to me, is the combination of knowing the game and being able to maximize your tools to achieve the maximum results. Kreider can do that as well as anyone I've seen come through this system. Much of the ballyhoo about his hockey sense is still leftover criticism from the fact that he was drafted out of the NE Prep system and had never played at an 'elite' level.

Sure, you can find an endless number of players with elite skills who never reached their potential, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one of them who shrugged off scoring a hat trick because it was a preseason game, or that was dropped into the middle of a playoff game and managed to succeed.
I agree this "hockey sense" myth is overstated.

His instincts on the ice are very apparent and always have been. His work ethic and desire to learn and grow as a player on and off the ice has always been apparent.

Thus far in Hartford he has been working on blocking shots and faceoffs so he can be used in PK situations in the NHL.

There are smart players and people who recognize and work on areas or weakness to get better. And there are not very smart players like Lisin and Zherdev, who have tools but do not improve their weaknesses.

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10-15-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
As regards Nash and Krieder--I have personally never understood why people place so much importance on prospects having superstars to learn from as, generally speaking, most professional sports franchises have at least one truly elite player on their rosters at all times but this rarely translates to young players appropriating their skill sets.

And, to be quite honest, I'm not really sure how Nash's game really applies to Chris Krieder's. This may be my own ignorance of Nash's career to date, but they seem like totally different players to me.

Coaching--that's what generally tends to be critical in the development of young talent across all the major professional sports. Torts does seem to have a way to maximize talent for young players so that is something to be excited about.
Players "borrow" from other players all the time. Same with musicians etc. Why do you think coaches yell at players for picking up other players bad habits.

Gretzky as a kid used to watch games and film all the time. You don't think watching other players had any effect on his seeing the ice or little tricks etc.

It is always easier to learn on the job from others than invent the wheel everyday.

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10-15-2012, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm amused by the amount of spite on the prospect board. So many people are up in arms about Kreider being ranked that high.

Kreider is a student of the game. You can teach positioning and strategy. You can't teach 6'3 225lbs with elite wheels and a quick release. Tortorella has turned dozens of players with holes in their game into 200ft players. If he needs help offensively, he has one of the premier power forwards in the NHL to learn from. Can't ask for a better situation.
Yeah, and even if people actually end up being right about Kreider, its not like there is "10" prospects out there who will score 80+ pts or perform equal to that for a D or goalie. If there is 10 players that scores a PPG each year, a player is in his prime for 10 years, on avg about one of the 80+ players enters the league each year. A group of prospects can at most contain 3 years of kids. That's 3 at the most...

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10-15-2012, 09:51 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by cmdevisser View Post
As regards Nash and Krieder--I have personally never understood why people place so much importance on prospects having superstars to learn from as, generally speaking, most professional sports franchises have at least one truly elite player on their rosters at all times but this rarely translates to young players appropriating their skill sets.

And, to be quite honest, I'm not really sure how Nash's game really applies to Chris Krieder's. This may be my own ignorance of Nash's career to date, but they seem like totally different players to me.

Coaching--that's what generally tends to be critical in the development of young talent across all the major professional sports. Torts does seem to have a way to maximize talent for young players so that is something to be excited about.
Nash and Kreider are very similar players. Big bodies with great shots and elite skating ability. While the day-to-day stuff might not be as valuable for a guy like Kreider, Nash's knowledge of the league will be invaluable. Nash has been in the league for a decade, and he can provide insight into opposing defenses and goalies. Which guys you can lean on to drive to the net, and which guys can muscle you right back. Which guys struggle making an outside turn, and which guys keep a wide base that allows you to shoot between their legs.

All of those little nuances that you don't notice as a fan, but are vital to the success of a player, are the things that Nash can pass along. We've seen it internally with Redden mentoring McDonagh, Richards mentoring Stepan and Del Zotto. Veterans teaching the kids how to succeed, and how to be professionals.

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10-16-2012, 02:42 PM
  #64
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The best part about prospect rankings is to watch people go guano crazy about them, only to look back 6 or 7 years later and say "Wow, didn't see that one coming!"

Kreider has always reminded me of Tony Amonte, in a big frame. And frankly, it's the frame that makes him very interesting. There simply aren't that many 6'3, 225-230 pound guys who can move like he moves.

I don't think Kreider will be a superstar. In other words, I don't see 50 goals and 100 points out of him. However, if we're fortunate, he'll have a very similar career to the previously mentioned Amonte.

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10-16-2012, 03:28 PM
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Yeah I kind of think Leslie overrates his ceiling by a fair amount, but you can be a very good and valuable player without being a super star that scores 100 points

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10-18-2012, 07:07 PM
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Am I the only one who has an issue with Baertschi being ranked higher than Kreider?

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10-18-2012, 07:09 PM
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The best part about prospect rankings is to watch people go guano crazy about them, only to look back 6 or 7 years later and say "Wow, didn't see that one coming!"

Kreider has always reminded me of Tony Amonte, in a big frame. And frankly, it's the frame that makes him very interesting. There simply aren't that many 6'3, 225-230 pound guys who can move like he moves.

I don't think Kreider will be a superstar. In other words, I don't see 50 goals and 100 points out of him. However, if we're fortunate, he'll have a very similar career to the previously mentioned Amonte.
I see him as being a 28-33 goal 65-70 point guy. How much better can you expect from a mid 1st round pick? (provided those are his consistent #s?)

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10-18-2012, 07:31 PM
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I see him as being a 28-33 goal 65-70 point guy. How much better can you expect from a mid 1st round pick? (provided those are his consistent #s?)
I don't view limits based upon where he was drafted. (Stars from every round).

With that said, while I think he'll be a better pro than an amateur, there are some limits on Kreider's overall vision and skills. In other words, I don't see Kreider being among the great. If we're fortunate, he'll be among the very good.

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10-21-2012, 12:04 AM
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What are his odds for 2014?

I think he might just miss the cut, but you never know. He could fill in for injured guys.

Top six wingers are a lock.

Parise, Kane, Kessel and Ryan.

Bottom six wingers?

Callahan, JVR, Pacioretty, Brown, Pominville, Backes

Great depth considering Kreider isnt even there.


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10-21-2012, 04:20 PM
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Saw one of my college friends last night at a Halloween party that hadn't since we graduated (2010) and he told me that he had played with Kreider at Masconomet Regional High School; said Chris just LOVES playing for this team (his costume was a Lucic Jersey--he's diehard Bruins fan, obviously--with chains and a couple locks around his neck; he should have won best costume for his 'lockout' haha)

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10-21-2012, 04:25 PM
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Always an interesting situation.

There are probably only three teams id hate having to play for growing up a diehard Ranger fan. Flyers, Sabres and Devils.

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10-21-2012, 05:01 PM
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What? you act as if that's not so special ...
I believe he meant the exact opposite.

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10-21-2012, 05:34 PM
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What are his odds for 2014?

I think he might just miss the cut, but you never know. He could fill in for injured guys.

Top six wingers are a lock.

Parise, Kane, Kessel and Ryan.

Bottom six wingers?

Callahan, JVR, Pacioretty, Brown, Pominville, Backes

Great depth considering Kreider isnt even there.
Ooh I would have to say Kreider has a decent shot on a bottom six role.. Backes has been playing center and playing a superb two way game at that for nearly the last two seasons, and JVR was just traded for a guy that has been a third pairing defenseman for a while in Schenn.

A guy like Pavelski can play wing as well, and he's been good there in SJ. Lets net forget Erik Cole as well. I expect Torts to be coaching Team USA.

Parise-Kesler-Kane
Ryan-Pavelski-Kessel
Brown-Backes-Callahan
Kreider-Stepan-Pacioretty

Cole, Legwand

Suter- Carlson
McDonaugh- Bogosian
Yandle-Shattenkirk

Faulk

Quick
Miller
Howard

HC: Tortorella
Asst: Laviolette, Gordon

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10-21-2012, 06:17 PM
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Kreider on Team USA gets me giddy.

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10-22-2012, 07:01 AM
  #75
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What are his odds for 2014?

I think he might just miss the cut, but you never know. He could fill in for injured guys.

Top six wingers are a lock.

Parise, Kane, Kessel and Ryan.

Bottom six wingers?

Callahan, JVR, Pacioretty, Brown, Pominville, Backes

Great depth considering Kreider isnt even there.


IMO, it depends on the philosophy of the USA managment staff at that time.

Do they want to have a back and forth shoot out trying to match lines with Canada or go with the 2+2 approach and try to grind out a win like the last Olympics?

With the influx and success of USA born prospects the last couple years on offence and defence at some point in the next 8'ish years (2 tournaments) US managment may get cocky or curious to see if we can out gun the Canadians at their own game but who knows for sure?

If they want to run and gun I think Kreider is almost a lock for a spot in 2014, If they want an elite grinding core in the bottom 6 that can shut it down and pop in a few timely goals then most likely there are 4 other guys that will get the bulk of playing time for that bottom six winger role and maybe Kreids is riding the bench for insurance and learning.

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