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Are there "clutch" players or performances in sports?

View Poll Results: Are there "clutch" players or performances in sports?
Yes 26 68.42%
No 8 21.05%
Undecided 4 10.53%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-12-2012, 11:23 AM
  #26
Paradise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
There is no such thing as being "clutch".

I will however give credence to performing, when it counts, under pressure and upping your game.
That's pretty much the definition of being clutch

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Old
10-12-2012, 12:03 PM
  #27
sully1410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
That's pretty much the definition of being clutch
Not really.

They are pro hockey players, it's what they do. In fact most players preform when required, so it's not like the "clutch" gene is limited to a select few players or anything. In fact it's much more common then that.

I would say that most "clutch" players arise from circumstance more then anything else. I have a hard time believing that being clutch is now a marketable skill in the hockey world.

That being said, there are players that collapse under pressure, like Tanner Glass in the 2011 playoffs, but most rise to the occasion.

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Old
10-12-2012, 12:10 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheBunk View Post
Actually, there is:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...utch-performer

The author does a great job at maintaining balance but does show evidence of how there can be a clutch performer in sports. The author gives the mentally and the physiological strains on a high stakes game, or playoff, or Olympic event and says that that there is a clutch is the opposite of choking.

http://www.athleticinsight.com/Vol6I...erformance.htm

Good article by an academic articulating the difference of a regular season prep to a playoff one. Clearly showing that stress, pressure, media, spotlight, and all sorts of intangibles can effect a players game. His job? To ensure that that the player is physically and mentally ready. Like the aforementioned article stated, a persons mind and body optimal stress reflect can be the difference between a players best game and their worst game.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ch-performance

A good unbiased article of the mystery of clutch performers. The point I like in this one that is that ones response to stress (i.e. playoffs, Olympics) is related to skill set and experience. I think that is extremely important. This combined with mental and physical preparation can show that there can be such thing as a clutch performer. To rely of stats like PPG is fine, but there are intangibles that obviously can't be calculated, like passion, confidence, experience, etc. These need to be considered. Oh, and the reason why I picked Claude Lemieux in the playoffs was not because of his PPG (he did win the Conn Smyth one year), it was because he had the 'X' factor to raise his teammates up as well. You knew that a role player like him stepped up and during his prime he WAS money in the playoffs.
Interesting articles. Here's my 2 cents--I believe there are clutch players in all sports, but the discussion gets confounded by the following:
1)Many, perhaps most, 'clutch' performances, eg, Paul Henderson's, are statistical anomalies, related to small sample size, or just pure luck, as Garret has endlessly pointed out.
2)Some players, a select few, do perform better under pressure, but it has little to do with effort. It's NOT that they are trying harder; in fact, they might have LESS adrenaline and less cortisol mucking up their bodies than the choking players. The game may simply slow down and be less cluttered in their minds. It's easier to envision in golf or poker but happens in hockey, no doubt. So the 'how can pros not be trying hard all the time' argument misses the point. These players have assets that we term 'intangible", because we do not fully understand them.
3)Just because we can't measure it, doesn't mean it does not exist. Not too long ago people believed that science had found the smallest particle in existence:the atom. Not so. Science is a work in progress and so, until we figure out a way to measure the "intangibles", there will be clutch believers and clutch doubters. Stay tuned.

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Old
10-12-2012, 12:47 PM
  #29
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I went with undecided because the wasn't an option to see both sides of the argument.
I like to believe that there are clutch players, guys who thrive in high pressure situations versus guys who shrink. I also see the value of a statistical break down. Over and over its basically been disproven.

I guess my favourite example is Kobe Bryant. I'm a big Kobe fan and of anyone to play since MJ I want him taking the shot. His demeanor in last moments is unparalleled, he doesn't think he's gonna make the shot, he knows it. And that's why I want the ball in his hands. And many fans AND players would agree.
What do the numbers say though?
The stats indicate he's not the most clutch in the game. I'm on my phone so I'm not gonna look for the espn article but a few players rank above Kobe.
Does it change my view?
No. But I'm going based on my gut and what I see. I can't really argue against the stats, I can just take a leap of faith and go with "my guy".

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Old
10-12-2012, 01:00 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Science is a work in progress and so, until we figure out a way to measure the "intangibles", there will be clutch believers and clutch doubters. Stay tuned.
Good call. Would love to be around the day that these things can be accurately quantified!

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Old
10-12-2012, 04:58 PM
  #31
Daddy Longlegs
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For those of you who believe that clutch players don't exist, try to argue with the following equation:

Jordan Eberle = clutch x 3


And he's only 22. A year after he scored the tying goal against Russia with 5.4 seconds left ( then scored a clutch shootout goal), he stepped up again. An argument could be made that he was "expected" to step up again, and he did. In grand fashion. Scoring 2 goals in the final 4ish minutes to tie the game.

That above point was to quell the argument (of one mentioned previous on here) that expectation clouds ones ability to be clutch. Or a spectators perception for that matter. By that I mean, even though most hoped/expected Eberle might step up again, the fact he acted in a "clutch" fashion should not be overlooked simply because it was "expected".


Last edited by Daddy Longlegs: 10-13-2012 at 01:20 AM.
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Old
10-12-2012, 05:06 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
For those of you who believe that clutch players don't exist, try to argue with the following equation:

Jordan Eberle = clutch x 3


And he's only 22. A year after he scored the tying goal against Russia with 5.4 seconds left ( then scored a clutch shootout goal), he stepped up again. An argument could be made that he was "expected" to step up again, and he did. In grand fashion. Scoring 2 goals in the final 4ish minutes to tie the game.

That above point was to quell the argument (of one mentioned previous on here) that expectation clouds ones ability to be clutch. Or a spectators perception for that matter. By that I mean, even though most hoped/expected Eberle might step up again, the fact the acted in a "clutch" fashion should not be overlooked simply because it was "expected".
Jordan Eberle is an outstanding hockey player...and in that example he did what he does best. Score goals. That's why he's a pro hockey player, and considered to be in the top tier of players. How is this "clutch"?

Because he scored 3 goals when it was needed? Great. That's what he's paid to do.

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Old
10-12-2012, 05:14 PM
  #33
King Woodballs
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Yes, I do believe there are clutch players.

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Old
10-12-2012, 05:17 PM
  #34
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Here's one that I really have trouble wrapping my head around. The colts with Manning at the helm for 14 seasons had a record of 141-67. In the playoffs the Colts record was 9-10 over that same time. I know that they did win a superbowl, but why such a big difference between winning % in the season compared to the playoffs when it really matters?

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Old
10-12-2012, 05:23 PM
  #35
sully1410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
Here's one that I really have trouble wrapping my head around. The colts with Manning at the helm for 14 seasons had a record of 141-67. In the playoffs the Colts record was 9-10 over that same time. I know that they did win a superbowl, but why such a big difference between winning % in the season compared to the playoffs when it really matters?
Because they almost always had to go through the Patriots.

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Old
10-12-2012, 05:23 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
For those of you who believe that clutch players don't exist, try to argue with the following equation:

Jordan Eberle = clutch x 3


And he's only 22. A year after he scored the tying goal against Russia with 5.4 seconds left ( then scored a clutch shootout goal), he stepped up again. An argument could be made that he was "expected" to step up again, and he did. In grand fashion. Scoring 2 goals in the final 4ish minutes to tie the game.

That above point was to quell the argument (of one mentioned previous on here) that expectation clouds ones ability to be clutch. Or a spectators perception for that matter. By that I mean, even though most hoped/expected Eberle might step up again, the fact the acted in a "clutch" fashion should not be overlooked simply because it was "expected".
I don't think you follow the concept. This is what is expected, this is what he does in many games including the ones that "don't matter". Thus its essentially status quo for him.

He's a goal scorer scoring goals. The argument of clutch would be consistently scoring more goals in "clutch" situations then in normal situations. Something statistically he, and every other NHL player has not done at a rate high enough to challenge normal deviation /luck.

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10-12-2012, 05:26 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Because they almost always had to go through the Patriots.
What did the Patriots have that the colts didn't?

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Old
10-12-2012, 05:27 PM
  #38
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It can't be because of the team itself, no, in a team sport only one player matters, right?

RIGHT?

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Old
10-12-2012, 05:34 PM
  #39
TroubaFan1
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Originally Posted by EpicGingy View Post
It can't be because of the team itself, no, in a team sport only one player matters, right?

RIGHT?
Yes but a team has individual players that step up. Its how the 8-10 Calgary Stampeders Beat the 14-4 Winnipeg blue bombers in the 2001 Grey Cup. I mean the A's had a better record and a better division then the Tigers but lost because of a idividual player (Verlander) took over his games.

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Old
10-12-2012, 05:37 PM
  #40
Daddy Longlegs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Jordan Eberle is an outstanding hockey player...and in that example he did what he does best. Score goals. That's why he's a pro hockey player, and considered to be in the top tier of players. How is this "clutch"?

Because he scored 3 goals when it was needed? Great. That's what he's paid to do.
So by your definition, Eberle could score 28 overtime goals in a season and still not be clutch because "that's what he gets paid to do"?
That's a pile of crap. Every other player on the ice is getting paid as well, but they aren't scoring the overtime goals. Why aren't they? They're getting paid, therefore they should all be scoring clutch goals. Players get paid by contribution. I've never heard of any player getting paid based on WHEN they make their contribution. If a player achieved 100 points in a season and got all those points in the first periods only, by your logic, he would get paid less than a player who scored 100 pts spread throughout all periods. That doesn't and will never happen.

Your argument is beyond weak to me.

FYI, Eberle wasn't getting paid at the WJC.

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10-12-2012, 05:44 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddy Longlegs View Post
So by your definition, Eberle could score 28 overtime goals in a season and still not be clutch because "that's what he gets paid to do"? .
If only scored 4 regular time goals and 28 of goals, yes he would be clutch. The problem is he hasn't do e that. No one has to a degree that falls beyond the percentage chance of luck. That's the point!

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Old
10-12-2012, 06:43 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
Here's one that I really have trouble wrapping my head around. The colts with Manning at the helm for 14 seasons had a record of 141-67. In the playoffs the Colts record was 9-10 over that same time. I know that they did win a superbowl, but why such a big difference between winning % in the season compared to the playoffs when it really matters?
Question might be, how did the Colts do against playoff calibre teams and how that may have affected their winning percentage.

Many of those wins may have been against teams that were not playoff calibre.

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Old
10-12-2012, 07:24 PM
  #43
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I don't agree with everything Daddy Longlegs says, and sometimes there are questionable arguments, but I think Eberle is a good example. Big game, lots of pressure from the fans around the country, its a high stakes environment where I think rising up and maintain composure, focus, and excitement to step up. Its a good example and I honestly think for whom who say thats his job to score goals is very weak. Of course it is, but he is a good example of relying on skill set and mental composure when it mattered the most.

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10-12-2012, 08:12 PM
  #44
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I would argue maybe "clutchness" doesn't exist, but anti-clutchness certainly does.
I agree that certain players don't gain greater ability in crunch time than they have at any other point. Eberle scores late cause he's a good hockey player, and he scores early cause he's a good hockey player.
I think what differentiates him is his ability to play AT THE SAME LEVEL while others shrink. Perhaps we can call that being clutch, but I think it's a reflection of other succumbing to pressure (which isn't a knock, the pressure players are under is so high I can't knock them for gripping the stick a little tighter) while "clutch" players maintain a high level of performance.

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10-12-2012, 08:20 PM
  #45
TroubaFan1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob E View Post
Question might be, how did the Colts do against playoff calibre teams and how that may have affected their winning percentage.

Many of those wins may have been against teams that were not playoff calibre.
You're right about that. I don't know what the Colts record was against playoff teams in the reg season over those years. But if I were to guess id say it was atleast above .500.

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10-12-2012, 09:06 PM
  #46
supahdupah
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Oh my. Confirmation Bias.

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10-12-2012, 09:09 PM
  #47
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Which side of the argument are you accusing of this? Both?

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10-12-2012, 09:20 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
What did the Patriots have that the colts didn't?
Better players. Of course the colts winning % dropped in the playoffs. Only the 12 of 32 teams make the playoffs. The tend to be good

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Old
10-12-2012, 09:29 PM
  #49
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Which side of the argument are you accusing of this? Both?
It only applies to one side. The wrong one.

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Old
10-12-2012, 11:03 PM
  #50
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Clutch exists in the context that there are certain players that are not afraid of the moment. They are mentally tough, and have an ironclad clad will to win. Thus, they have an ingrained willingness and ability to accomplish the task at hand under the most arduous of professional circumstances. To me, someone who can be fit into those parameters is by definition, "clutch".

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