I remember buying NHL books and "Best of NHL '98" stuff as a kid, Hasek was consistently ranked third in them behind both Brodeur & Roy. In some of them even behind Joseph or Richter. At the time I remember thinking how odd it was, since when I watched him play he seemed better than those ranked ahead of him. Only later did I understand that hockey suffers from the same issues as, say historiography, or other humanistic arts.
That is, things are corrected in hindsight, with comparison and through studies. Something that's sometimes discarded as revisionism.
How do you think Hasek will be remembered? A late bloomer? How to explain his stats? How should Brodeurs career (or indeed Roy's) be viewed in the context of Hasek stealing the vezinas when active? Have at it!
I think his legacy will be revealed as the #1 Goalie of all time in the current all time best goalie thread.
I should hope so, but I'm not entirely convinced. From reading this forum I understand it Roy is held in higher esteem (based on playoff performance alone?) something I can't really get my head around. I have my suspicion that if Hasek were Canadian it wouldn't even be a debate. Or by the same token, that in Europe there is Hasek and a big gap then some northern american goalies.
About the link, it was simply to announce his retirement. No value judgement.
I should hope so, but I'm not entirely convinced. From reading this forum I understand it Roy is held in higher esteem (based on playoff performance alone?) something I can't really get my head around. I have my suspicion that if Hasek were Canadian it wouldn't even be a debate. Or by the same token, that in Europe there is Hasek and a big gap then some northern american goalies.
About the link, it was simply to announce his retirement. No value judgement.
I see it this way, too. I find the level of education on these boards to be dozens of times more educated than the people I have talked hockey with throughout my life, if I averaged them out. I don't find the overall patriotic bias to be any less, however. I can pinpoint a half a dozen guys I know in real life that I consider unbiased. There are some guys on here who's opinions I love to read, again and again. But overall, it's often educated bickering, with no one budging on their pre-set opinions - many of which seem very based off of which country someone came out of a vagina in.
What I remember from the 90's - it took about 8 years for people (who parrot announcers, for the most part) to stop passing off everything Dom was doing as 'lucky'. Roy was always the big name, Brodeur not so much. Once Dom faded, that's the first time I remember Brodeur becoming the media darling. It's also the first time I started hearing about Sawchuk all the time. I really believe the common perception presented in the media only started to become heavily based off of shutouts and wins at this time. I think there had to be a reason why a Canadian vagina produced a better player than a Czech vag. Otherwise, we'd all have to accomplish something on our own, rather than feeling great simply by being born in the borders of Canada, and parasiting greatness from hockey players.
I see one single difference between Hasek > Brodeur = Orr > Lidstrom (you either see it one way or another, I can't believe people can argue Orr and Brodeur at the same time.... or the other two, for that matter) The difference is - one COULD speculate that the game has changed, rendering Orr's obvious dominance of his peers to be less of a factor. Dom dominated his peers, including Brodeur, for his 8 year prime.
Indeed, I would argue Hasek was the best goalie by virtue of being the best during the regular season. Roy's playoff performance is usually used to counter this, I'm not quite sure how or why this should trump Hasek. Either way I would posit Hasek was just as good of a playoff goalie. I've also seen Haseks success diminished as being the result of "stacked" teams, which I guess would mean Detroit which he joined as a 35 year old. He had proved himself during a full decade before that in the NHL.
Would the vezina success of Brodeur be diminished in light of it coming after Roy & Haseks retirements/primes? I remember him being considered a goalie that "never lets in more than 2 goals a game" even before that.
That is, things are corrected in hindsight, with comparison and through studies. Something that's sometimes discarded as revisionism.
sometimes history gets things right in hindsight, sometimes it gets things wrong. most models of historiography will tell you that the time period that the historical revision is from often affects what it considers important. e.g., the shifting from michelangelo to raphael to leonardo as the greatest renaissance artist from the 17th century to the present.
an interesting question to ask of the current greatest goalies of all time discussion, actually. sawchuk, plante, and hall, you might say, have all had their moments as the greatest postwar goalie over the last thirty years. whichever way the project goes this time (my guess is it'll be plante), i'm curious what it will tell us about HOH's emphases on peak vs. career, playoffs vs. regular season, hart voting, strong vs. weak teams, etc.
same with hasek vs. roy. i think as the game evolves/changes, the majority may tend to go with one over the other depending on what kind of goalie might be best suited to how one best builds a team in whatever given era is asking.
I'm actually surprised at the amount of support for Hasek as possibly the best goalie of all time. First, I don't value team success in the playoffs as supremely as many seem to, but if there is one position where one might expect the GOAT to have a large dose of such success, it would be goalie. Second, there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding Hasek, both in regards to his pre-NHL and early NHL career and his reliablity with more than one team.
It sort of puzzles me how quickly some are to attest to Hasek being perhaps the best goalie ever (and Lidstrom possibly as good as any d-man besides Orr in the minds of many)... and yet most still place Jagr behind Hull, Beliveau, Richard, etc. In fact, he has to fight for a place in the top 10 forwards on many (perhaps most) lists. That seems like a stark difference, given that neither was part of a dynasty... and Jagr's "dark period" was maybe a couple years with the Caps after the Pens' situation didn't allow them to field a competitive team... while Hasek seemed to have some questionable situations arise with more than one organization. I certainly don't see Hasek as a superior playoff performer, having a better international record, being a better leader or team player, nor having more durability or longevity. I just don't see where there's such a large gap in Hasek's favor. Sure, Hasek had an incredible peak/short prime, but then so did Jagr, so again I'm curious why does there seem to be such a disparity?
It's not that I disagree with Hasek being possibly considered the best goalie ever. He certainly at least deserves consideration IMO. It's the difference in perception and resulting rankings that is a bit mystifying.
It's the difference in perception and resulting rankings that is a bit mystifying.
... no idea CYM. Hasek always struck me as a Garden House with way too much pressure running through it. Taught, extreme, volatile. Potentially capable of drowning an Apache' Indian in the desert 1000's of miles away from an oasis. He was/is Insane.
ya follow? Bend over for a drink, sumofabit... releases 3000 psi's per inch right in yer mouf.
... no idea CYM. Hasek always struck me as a Garden House with way too much pressure running through it. Taught, extreme, volatile. Potentially capable of drowning an Apache' Indian in the desert 1000's of miles away from an oasis. He was/is Insane.
ya follow? Bend over for a drink, sumofabit... releases 3000 psi's per inch right in yer mouf.
Yeah, that's basically what I was stepping around... he's bat$h** crazy... but then goalies tend to be. I mean look at his fellow top 7 GOAT goalies: a depressed drunk who died due to a fight with his roommate... a goalie who had some of his best years playing without a mask, until he invented the thing... one who threw up before each game and couldn't immediately see the benefit of having a piece of fiberglass between the puck and his face... one who at his absolute peak with a great dynasty, decided to take sabbaticals, and thought being a lawyer/politician may be better than being a pro athlete... another known for his extreme temper... and finally a goalie referred to "Uncle Daddy", because he couldn't keep it in his pants, but decided it was best to keep it all in the (his wife's) family. Nice collection there. Plante is the only one who seemed saner than the average bear, maybe Dryden as well. Hall and Brodeur about average. Sawchuk, Hasek and Roy... looney tunes!
Last edited by Czech Your Math: 10-13-2012 at 01:58 AM.
Wow. Where are ya'll going with that rant CYM?. Eccentric yes. But Reprobates every one?.
Thats, well, extreme.
Eccentric... yes... that's what they call rich, crazy people... so I guess that just leaves poor ole Sawchuk? How many nuts could a saw chuk chuk if a saw chuk saw chuk saw?
I should hope so, but I'm not entirely convinced. From reading this forum I understand it Roy is held in higher esteem (based on playoff performance alone?) something I can't really get my head around. I have my suspicion that if Hasek were Canadian it wouldn't even be a debate. Or by the same token, that in Europe there is Hasek and a big gap then some northern american goalies.
About the link, it was simply to announce his retirement. No value judgement.
I don't really think the Canadian thing is an issue - at least not directly. Meaning, I don't think its a racism issue. I think his problem is that he was stuck behind the Iron Curtain for a lot of years, so people tend to look at him as a late bloomer (as one poster above asked) or as having a short but dominant peak.
Fact is, he was already being called the best goaltender in Europe by the time he was 20. He was still playing professional hockey until just now over in Europe. There was nothing short about his career, or his peak. Had it not been for the Iron Curtain, he would have been able to play (and most likely start) in the NHL in his early 20's and his career stats would look much more impressive.
While I do think Roy and Brodeur managed to accomplish more than Hasek over the course of their careers, I don't think its because they were better. They just had more seasons in the NHL to work with (just like Messier wasn't better than Lemieux just because he scored more points). Roy especially seems to get rated highly because of his playoff performances (and rightly so - he was amazing). But Hasek was just better at stopping pucks, as his sv%, Harts, and Vezinas all while playing in the same era clearly indicate.
At the end of the day, I can't rate Roy or Brodeur ahead of Hasek, if he was better at keeping the puck out of the net than either of them were. I never got to see Plante, Hall, etc, so I won't rank them, but to me Hasek is the best goaltender since 1976, when I started watching hockey.
I'm actually surprised at the amount of support for Hasek as possibly the best goalie of all time. First, I don't value team success in the playoffs as supremely as many seem to, but if there is one position where one might expect the GOAT to have a large dose of such success, it would be goalie. Second, there is a lot of uncertainty surrounding Hasek, both in regards to his pre-NHL and early NHL career and his reliablity with more than one team.
It sort of puzzles me how quickly some are to attest to Hasek being perhaps the best goalie ever (and Lidstrom possibly as good as any d-man besides Orr in the minds of many)... and yet most still place Jagr behind Hull, Beliveau, Richard, etc. In fact, he has to fight for a place in the top 10 forwards on many (perhaps most) lists. That seems like a stark difference, given that neither was part of a dynasty... and Jagr's "dark period" was maybe a couple years with the Caps after the Pens' situation didn't allow them to field a competitive team... while Hasek seemed to have some questionable situations arise with more than one organization. I certainly don't see Hasek as a superior playoff performer, having a better international record, being a better leader or team player, nor having more durability or longevity. I just don't see where there's such a large gap in Hasek's favor. Sure, Hasek had an incredible peak/short prime, but then so did Jagr, so again I'm curious why does there seem to be such a disparity?
It's not that I disagree with Hasek being possibly considered the best goalie ever. He certainly at least deserves consideration IMO. It's the difference in perception and resulting rankings that is a bit mystifying.
Basically. Jagr gets trashed for putting his own style and stats over his team in Washington. Rightfully so in my opinion; I know we disagree there.
But Hasek seems to get off scott free. At least Jagr could be counted on to SHOW UP in the playoffs, warts and all. If Hasek felt he was injured, he'd shut himself down for the season and not even try to come back. It's well documented how he was cleared by the Buffalo team doctor to play the second round of the 1997 playoffs and refused. But he also didn't exactly bust his ass to come back from injury in 2004 or 2006, either.
And this accusation by a certain number Hasek fans that people who don't agree that Hasek is the best ever are just Canadian nationalists is laughable.
I've spent less than two weeks of my life in Canada and yet I think Roy is the best goalie of all time. And apparently I'm some kind of homer from Canada? I'm pretty sure quoipourquoi (who might be even more pro-Roy than I am) is American too.
Basically. Jagr gets trashed for putting his own style and stats over his team in Washington. Rightfully so in my opinion; I know we disagree there.
But Hasek seems to get off scott free. At least Jagr could be counted on to SHOW UP in the playoffs, warts and all. If Hasek felt he was injured, he'd shut himself down for the season and not even try to come back. It's well documented how he was cleared by the Buffalo team doctor to play the second round of the 1997 playoffs and refused. But he also didn't exactly bust his ass to come back from injury in 2004 or 2006, either.
Didn't he play injured through a good part of the '99 regular season and playoffs?
I strongly believe that Hasek will be remembered as the GOAT and a man who along with Roy, changed the game forever.
Roy/Allaire are largely credited with popularizing the concept of blocking out the lower part of the net through the butterfly (though Tretiak was doing this years before Roy entered the scene and Hall years before that). Which coupled with equipment improvements decreased the position's reliance on lightning quick reaction times. Hasek took it to another level.
Because of his amazing footspeed and flexibility he was able to develop a style that left shooters with no option but to try to beat him high. Anecdotally, I recall Bill Ranford relaying a story at a hockey school about how he had once trained with Hasek and a few other contemporary mid-90s goalies and they couldn't believe how much faster Hasek was than everyone else when they were doing Tretiak drills.
Statistically he is the best of all time. His performance in the '98 Olympics should remove all doubt about his ability to perform in pressure situations.
if we pretend for a second, because i don't want to get into that debate, that hasek and roy had equal accomplishments, i'm curious what (if any) extra credit roy gets for being so influential. hasek was such a crazy anomaly, making saves that no one else could, that there could be only one hasek-- thomas would be the only possible comparison and even then, their styles are not all that similar. whereas you have several generations of roy imitators, to various degrees of success.
FWIW, hasek was basically the only reason the sabres went anywhere in the 90s. They had a good/not quite great D most years, but had an atrocious offense. Miro Satan was basically our only reliable goal scorer for a while.
if we pretend for a second, because i don't want to get into that debate, that hasek and roy had equal accomplishments, i'm curious what (if any) extra credit roy gets for being so influential. hasek was such a crazy anomaly, making saves that no one else could, that there could be only one hasek-- thomas would be the only possible comparison and even then, their styles are not all that similar. whereas you have several generations of roy imitators, to various degrees of success.
I'd argue that the current crop of hybrid goalies (Quick would be the poster child) have just as much in common with Hasek as they have with Roy.
I'd just like to chime in that I am by far the biggest nationalist that posts on these boards, and I always have Hasek at the top of my list.
I don't know if I buy the argument that its nationalism that's Hasek's major detractor. There were lots of issues with his play that have been discussed ad nauseum here, but his nationality is certainly not one of them.
I would be shocked if the people that take issue with his nationality issue in the more than 1%.
Yeah, that's basically what I was stepping around... he's bat$h** crazy... but then goalies tend to be. I mean look at his fellow top 7 GOAT goalies: a depressed drunk who died due to a fight with his roommate... a goalie who had some of his best years playing without a mask, until he invented the thing... one who threw up before each game and couldn't immediately see the benefit of having a piece of fiberglass between the puck and his face... one who at his absolute peak with a great dynasty, decided to take sabbaticals, and thought being a lawyer/politician may be better than being a pro athlete... another known for his extreme temper... and finally a goalie referred to "Uncle Daddy", because he couldn't keep it in his pants, but decided it was best to keep it all in the (his wife's) family. Nice collection there. Plante is the only one who seemed saner than the average bear, maybe Dryden as well. Hall and Brodeur about average. Sawchuk, Hasek and Roy... looney tunes!
