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Are there "clutch" players or performances in sports?

View Poll Results: Are there "clutch" players or performances in sports?
Yes 26 68.42%
No 8 21.05%
Undecided 4 10.53%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-13-2012, 12:34 AM
  #51
sipowicz
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Clutch exists , two perfect examples Michael Jordan and Jerry Rice.

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Old
10-13-2012, 01:08 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Better players. Of course the colts winning % dropped in the playoffs. Only the 12 of 32 teams make the playoffs. The tend to be good
They didn't have better players, They had Tom Brady. Of course the % drops. But that a pretty drastic drop you have to admit.

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Old
10-13-2012, 02:47 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
They didn't have better players, They had Tom Brady. Of course the % drops. But that a pretty drastic drop you have to admit.
Randy Moss? Wes welker? Or how about when they had really good d with bruschi and mayo? A lot of those Patriots teams were extremely good.

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Old
10-13-2012, 10:47 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBunk View Post
Actually, there is:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...utch-performer

The author does a great job at maintaining balance but does show evidence of how there can be a clutch performer in sports. The author gives the mentally and the physiological strains on a high stakes game, or playoff, or Olympic event and says that that there is a clutch is the opposite of choking.

http://www.athleticinsight.com/Vol6I...erformance.htm

Good article by an academic articulating the difference of a regular season prep to a playoff one. Clearly showing that stress, pressure, media, spotlight, and all sorts of intangibles can effect a players game. His job? To ensure that that the player is physically and mentally ready. Like the aforementioned article stated, a persons mind and body optimal stress reflect can be the difference between a players best game and their worst game.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ch-performance

A good unbiased article of the mystery of clutch performers. The point I like in this one that is that ones response to stress (i.e. playoffs, Olympics) is related to skill set and experience. I think that is extremely important. This combined with mental and physical preparation can show that there can be such thing as a clutch performer. To rely of stats like PPG is fine, but there are intangibles that obviously can't be calculated, like passion, confidence, experience, etc. These need to be considered. Oh, and the reason why I picked Claude Lemieux in the playoffs was not because of his PPG (he did win the Conn Smyth one year), it was because he had the 'X' factor to raise his teammates up as well. You knew that a role player like him stepped up and during his prime he WAS money in the playoffs.
Nice articles. I voted for clutch. I remeber reading something similiar about Tiger Woods back in his heyday. IMO best historical example was Michael Jordan.

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Old
10-14-2012, 09:13 PM
  #55
TroubaFan1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Randy Moss? Wes welker? Or how about when they had really good d with bruschi and mayo? A lot of those Patriots teams were extremely good.
Harrison? Wayne? Clark? Saturday? Mathis? Freeney? Sanders? A lot of those Colt teams were extremely good too.

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Old
10-14-2012, 11:37 PM
  #56
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Just to touch on the Colts/Pats discussion. The three times the Colts and Pats met each other in the playoffs the home team won. 04 and 05 in New England and 07 in Indy.

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Old
10-15-2012, 02:57 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Clutch exists , two perfect examples Michael Jordan and Jerry Rice.
Jordan scored on 49.7% of regular season shots.

Jordan scored on 48.7% of playoff shots.

Jordan scored on 50% of playoff game winning attempts 9 of 18.

At various points he dipped below 50%. Is that clutch or is that pretty darn consistent?


Making plays under pressure are important, but that is always part of sports.

The reality is great players are given the opportunity to make big plays and because they are great, they make them at a relatively high rate.

Whether people remember the good or the bad is up to them.


Oh...


Jerry Rice was pretty good in non pressure situations too.


Last edited by truck: 10-15-2012 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Rice
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Old
10-15-2012, 03:13 PM
  #58
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Is there such a thing as clutch? Maybe.

I am sure there are some people who deal with the spotlight and pressure better than others.

But...

Superstars have a big games all the time.

Players go through hot and cold spells all the time.

Players get bounces to go their way just as often as they have bounces against.


Timing of good luck and how we remember things has as much to do with "clutch" as anything.

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Old
10-15-2012, 04:10 PM
  #59
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I guess the thing i have the most trouble believing about "clutchness"
is that how impossibly rare it must be, if it exists, for us to notice it at the highest level of sport.

I'm of the opinion that those who "aren't clutch" have probably been weeded out of the ranks well before the NHL level. When you think of how many opportunities in a players development there are for them to get booted out of the NHL pipeline, it seems impossible to me that such a trait wouldn't have been targeted by scouts/coaches as a glaring area of deficiency and cause for concern.

So much weight and scouting is placed on playing in "the big games" that it seems impossible to me that someone who fails to do so could advance through all ranks of junior, get drafted, and develop through the minors to become a meaningful NHL player.

I will admit i'm surprised at how many people believe in it but i guess i'm just a stickler for scientific evidence when it comes to certain things. Without seeing a single player actually put up "clutch" numbers i just find it impossible to get behind the idea.

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Old
10-15-2012, 04:12 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grind View Post
I guess the thing i have the most trouble believing about "clutchness"
is that how impossibly rare it must be, if it exists, for us to notice it at the highest level of sport.

I'm of the opinion that those who "aren't clutch" have probably been weeded out of the ranks well before the NHL level. When you think of how many opportunities in a players development there are for them to get booted out of the NHL pipeline, it seems impossible to me that such a trait wouldn't have been targeted by scouts/coaches as glaring are of deffeciency and cause fro concern.
I agree.

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Old
10-15-2012, 06:32 PM
  #61
garret9
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I kind of semi-changed my mind. I think "clutch" exists but as a different animal than most people consider.
It's a mix of any of these things: talent, work ethic, consistency, timing, and luck (ie: variance).
So really, I'd say most, if not all, pros are "clutch".

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Old
10-15-2012, 06:36 PM
  #62
YWGinYYZ
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My definition of clutch: being able to perform to your expected level in stressful situations. When the games on the line, can you consistently do what you're paid to do?


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 10-15-2012 at 09:59 PM.
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Old
10-15-2012, 09:47 PM
  #63
Jet
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I don't know. I've seen examples of players appearing to be 'clutch'.

I have had moments and times in big games/ playoffs where I have risen to the occasion and played my best hockey. I have also had times where I needed to be better in big situations but was nervous (or I guess choked).

I guess guys who can consistently raise their level in critical situations should be called clutch.

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Old
10-16-2012, 01:59 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreal View Post
Clutch exists in the context that there are certain players that are not afraid of the moment. They are mentally tough, and have an ironclad clad will to win. Thus, they have an ingrained willingness and ability to accomplish the task at hand under the most arduous of professional circumstances. To me, someone who can be fit into those parameters is by definition, "clutch".
I tend to agree. I don't really think of anyone as clutch in the sense that they can take their skills to "another level" as people say. It is more to do with handling pressure and staying in the moment. I played football, and guys would drive me nuts by trying to do too much when the game was on the line, for example chasing the ball trying to make a big play instead of staying in their gap and just doing their job. In a sense, those guys who can't handle the pressure and just do what they've done the previous 55 minutes in the last 5 minutes or in the playoffs what they've done for 82 games make the guys who can handle the pressure "clutch."

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Old
10-16-2012, 02:20 AM
  #65
vBurmi
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Is this really a question? Everyone handles pressure differently - some are far better with it than without it and some can't perform under it at all. We don't even have to look beyond our own personal experiences for the most part to see this, whether it's from school, professional experience or otherwise.

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Old
10-16-2012, 08:40 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vBurmi View Post
Is this really a question? Everyone handles pressure differently - some are far better with it than without it and some can't perform under it at all. We don't even have to look beyond our own personal experiences for the most part to see this, whether it's from school, professional experience or otherwise.
I guess the difference is I assume that if you've managed to make it to the ranks of the select few (NHL) you probably handle pressure just fine.

Thus everyone in the NHL is clutch in this sense, which means its a non starter when discussing players worth, it is not noteworthy.

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Old
10-17-2012, 12:45 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
I understand that players need to be able to handle pressure, work hard, compete, etc. The thing is that I'm saying that they have that all year round.

There's a problem with "raising your level when it counts" for this. It implies that they don't care 100% in the regular season or they don't try 100% in the regular season or both.
If people actually pick it up in the big games the opposite must be true that they don't try as hard in the not so big games. And really, the games are always big for these guys.

But the point is if that causes a difference that further separates players in regular season, then you would see "separation between the pencil pushers and CEO's" of the NHL... but there isn't any? So why then?

My thoughts and many others is just that most stronger players perform to the best of their ability as consistently as possible... and lady luck creates her variance. That's why you get hot and cold streaks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
There is no such thing as being "clutch".

I will however give credence to performing, when it counts, under pressure and upping your game.

The playoffs are a different animal. Your playing the same team at least four games in a row, sometimes 7.

Your going to see other players rise to the occasion and produce as sometimes the big stars are focused on defensively.

There's no doubt that Claude Lemieux is a great playoff performer, but it's not like he didn't have a scoring touch. There were years that he was non-existent but for the most part he potted between 25-30goals and even got 41 one season.

Line ups get changed, injuries happen and there's more of a chance that some if your lesser players will perform better.

Also anyone notice that its always a lower level if player that gets this particular label. No one says that Crosby or Ovechkin is clutch...because that level of performance is expected from them.

Either way, clutch ness is easily explained.
You both need to look at the following performances of players

Steve Yzerman during the 2002 playoffs. Played the entire playoffs on one leg and was still the Wings best player. That's clutch.

Joe Sakic in Salt Lake.

Jordan Eberle in WJC.

Evgeni Malkin in the 2009 playoffs.

Paul Henderson in 72

Mario and Wayne in 87

Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Jordan Eberle is an outstanding hockey player...and in that example he did what he does best. Score goals. That's why he's a pro hockey player, and considered to be in the top tier of players. How is this "clutch"?

Because he scored 3 goals when it was needed? Great. That's what he's paid to do.
When someone plays for their country they never get paid. Especially when it's a junior aged tournament.

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Old
10-17-2012, 01:15 AM
  #68
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Its called "heart"

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Old
10-17-2012, 01:18 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
You both need to look at the following performances of players

Steve Yzerman during the 2002 playoffs. Played the entire playoffs on one leg and was still the Wings best player. That's clutch.

Joe Sakic in Salt Lake.

Jordan Eberle in WJC.

Evgeni Malkin in the 2009 playoffs.

Paul Henderson in 72

Mario and Wayne in 87



When someone plays for their country they never get paid. Especially when it's a junior aged tournament.
Prove to me that any of those weren't from the fact that:
*those are super talented players who score all the time even in non "clutch" moments
*that any of those players were able to raise their game to a "higher level" than they normally do

What separates those moments is that their importance in results, but it doesn't identify that the players rose their compete in those circumstances.

Also, Malkin has not risen his playing level in any measurement for post-season relative to reg-season.
And, I've heard straight from the horses mouth in regards to Paul Henderson

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Old
10-17-2012, 03:28 AM
  #70
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Thanks for everyone's vote and input into this thread. Your performances were "clutch".

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Old
10-17-2012, 07:32 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
Prove to me that any of those weren't from the fact that:
*those are super talented players who score all the time even in non "clutch" moments
*that any of those players were able to raise their game to a "higher level" than they normally do

What separates those moments is that their importance in results, but it doesn't identify that the players rose their compete in those circumstances.

Also, Malkin has not risen his playing level in any measurement for post-season relative to reg-season.
And, I've heard straight from the horses mouth in regards to Paul Henderson
The idea of a "clutch" player or performance is part of the mystic and romanticism of sport. An idea that transends everyday stats. For the average fan sport goes beyond the crunching of numbers. They want/need to believe that despite what the stats say their favorite player/team can rise up and provide that "clutch" performance to bring home the glory.

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Old
10-17-2012, 08:00 AM
  #72
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Well based on voting I guess being clutch is good to go! Some great discussions back and forth but I am going to have to lean towards the " clutch" crowd on this one.

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Old
10-17-2012, 10:04 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanucksnWpg View Post
You both need to look at the following performances of players

Steve Yzerman during the 2002 playoffs. Played the entire playoffs on one leg and was still the Wings best player. That's clutch.

Joe Sakic in Salt Lake.

Jordan Eberle in WJC.

Evgeni Malkin in the 2009 playoffs.

Paul Henderson in 72

Mario and Wayne in 87



When someone plays for their country they never get paid. Especially when it's a junior aged tournament.
Henderson and Ebs aside...

You listed some of the best players in the history or hockey.

Them scoring more than others isn't a surprise.

Them being on the ice at big minutes isn't a surprise.

They did what they always did.

If that is "Clutch" then I guess they are clutch. Looks like elite players being elite to me.

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10-17-2012, 10:09 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Henderson and Ebs aside...

You listed some of the best players in the history or hockey.

Them scoring more than others isn't a surprise.

Them being on the ice at big minutes isn't a surprise.

They did what they always did.

If that is "Clutch" then I guess they are clutch. Looks like elite players being elite to me.
Now explain Henderson and Ebs as you called him.

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Old
10-17-2012, 10:25 AM
  #75
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Claude Lemieux is considered to be an all time "Clutch" playoff performer. He had a few dominant performances, but was he that much better?

Regular Season: 786 Points in 1215 games for .6469 points per game.

Playoffs: 158 Points on 234 games for .6752 points per game.

If we apply his regular season scoring rate to his playoff games played, he would have recorded 151 Points. So for all of his clutchiness, Claude Lemieux scored 7 extra points over his 158 playoff games. Were those 7 clutch points? or were they just regular variance?

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