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Dominik Hasek retires, what is the legacy?

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Old
10-13-2012, 01:52 PM
  #26
SaintPatrick33
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And this accusation by a certain number Hasek fans that people who don't agree that Hasek is the best ever are just Canadian nationalists is laughable.

I've spent less than two weeks of my life in Canada and yet I think Roy is the best goalie of all time. And apparently I'm some kind of homer from Canada? I'm pretty sure quoipourquoi (who might be even more pro-Roy than I am) is American too.
I've never been in Canada and I rank Roy and Dryden as the best goaltenders of all time.

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10-13-2012, 02:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I'd argue that the current crop of hybrid goalies (Quick would be the poster child) have just as much in common with Hasek as they have with Roy.
And more in common with Brodeur than Hasek, in turn?

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10-13-2012, 02:04 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Basically. Jagr gets trashed for putting his own style and stats over his team in Washington. Rightfully so in my opinion; I know we disagree there.

But Hasek seems to get off scott free. At least Jagr could be counted on to SHOW UP in the playoffs, warts and all. If Hasek felt he was injured, he'd shut himself down for the season and not even try to come back. It's well documented how he was cleared by the Buffalo team doctor to play the second round of the 1997 playoffs and refused. But he also didn't exactly bust his ass to come back from injury in 2004 or 2006, either.
That's much of what I was trying to say. Jagr's in his 23rd season of professional hockey (it will be his 19th NHL season if there is one), and there's a dispute over exactly how hard he was trying for a season or two with one franchise. He still showed up and put up decent numbers, despite being with a new team, playing for coaches that were trying to enforce a defensive-first system that didn't make sense. If he had been playing in the 70s or 80s, when scoring was higher, and there were very few top Europeans (Stastny, Kurri), he might have still been in the top 10 with 85-100+ points in 2003 and 2004... and few or none would be suggesting that an "off" season or two in his early 30s was somehow a black mark on his career.

In Hasek's case, caught a couple of breaks as far as era: very low scoring era which makes goalies appear even better (compared to forwards)... and better equipment which allowed him to more easily play his acrobatic style. He had some questionable injuries. Ottawa didn't want him back after he left them hanging in 2006. He didn't play again for Czechs internationally after he left them hanging in 2006 Olympics after being injured in first game. Detroit didn't want him back even after he volunteered to take a pay cut. You spoke to at least one situation in the playoffs in Buffalo.

In contrast, Jagr did not miss playoff or international games unless he was SERIOUSLY injured. He was generally taking big hits game after game and dragging around a couple defenders at a time... while Hasek was doing his acrobat act with much more protection under the rules.

Jagr certainly has won many more Golden Hockey Stick awards for best Czech hockey player. If you look at the time when both were in the NHL, it's a landslide in Jagr's favor. If you took a poll of hockey fans in the region, I don't see it going in Hasek's favor either. For him to be so much more highly regarded than Jagr by North American fans seems strange in light of all the evidence. How much of that is possibly overrating Hasek and how much is underrating Jagr is difficult to say with much certainty, although I tend to think it's the latter at least as much as the former.

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10-13-2012, 02:12 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
That's much of what I was trying to say. Jagr's in his 23rd season of professional hockey (it will be his 19th NHL season if there is one), and there's a dispute over exactly how hard he was trying for a season or two with one franchise. He still showed up and put up decent numbers, despite being with a new team, playing for coaches that were trying to enforce a defensive-first system that didn't make sense. If he had been playing in the 70s or 80s, when scoring was higher, and there were very few top Europeans (Stastny, Kurri), he might have still been in the top 10 with 85-100+ points in 2003 and 2004... and few or none would be suggesting that an "off" season or two in his early 30s was somehow a black mark on his career.

In Hasek's case, caught a couple of breaks as far as era: very low scoring era which makes goalies appear even better (compared to forwards)... and better equipment which allowed him to more easily play his acrobatic style. He had some questionable injuries. Ottawa didn't want him back after he left them hanging in 2006. He didn't play again for Czechs internationally after he left them hanging in 2006 Olympics after being injured in first game. Detroit didn't want him back even after he volunteered to take a pay cut. You spoke to at least one situation in the playoffs in Buffalo.

In contrast, Jagr did not miss playoff or international games unless he was SERIOUSLY injured. He was generally taking big hits game after game and dragging around a couple defenders at a time... while Hasek was doing his acrobat act with much more protection under the rules.

Jagr certainly has won many more Golden Hockey Stick awards for best Czech hockey player. If you look at the time when both were in the NHL, it's a landslide in Jagr's favor. If you took a poll of hockey fans in the region, I don't see it going in Hasek's favor either. For him to be so much more highly regarded than Jagr by North American fans seems strange in light of all the evidence. How much of that is possibly overrating Hasek and how much is underrating Jagr is difficult to say with much certainty, although I tend to think it's the latter at least as much as the former.
I suppose it's possible that Jagr suffers from being "Mario's Sidekick" but then again Kurri doesn't really seem to suffer from being partnered with Gretzky so I dunno. Maybe it's that there wasn't as much separation between Jagr and his peers as there was from Kurri and HIS peers. Spending a good part of his career in the "dead puck era" might hurt Jagr in that regard.

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10-13-2012, 02:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I suppose it's possible that Jagr suffers from being "Mario's Sidekick" but then again Kurri doesn't really seem to suffer from being partnered with Gretzky so I dunno. Maybe it's that there wasn't as much separation between Jagr and his peers as there was from Kurri and HIS peers. Spending a good part of his career in the "dead puck era" might hurt Jagr in that regard.
I think it has a lot to do with how great Gretzky and Mario were... mostly in a much higher scoring era. Jagr was Mario's match at even strength, but he was not going to outscore him when the power play went through Mario (and he was a master on the PP too). By the time he reached his prime, the franchise was starting to go downhill due to management problems, so there's this impression that Mario "led the Pens to Cups all by himself" while Jagr "couldn't."

Did you mean that Jagr didn't separate himself as much from his peers as Hasek? Because he certainly did so WAY more than Kurri IMO. If you did mean Hasek, I'd agree, however each was clearly the dominant player at his position during the same era.

I can understand why Hasek is ranked as perhaps the best goalie ever, he was the dominator after all. It's just perplexing how seemingly the same people that have no problem putting Hasek alongside or above past greats like Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Dryden, etc. will bristle when it's reasonably suggested that Jagr belongs at least on the same level as players like Bobby Hull. I'm just trying to understand why there's such a stark difference in the treatment of these two legends of the DPE.

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10-13-2012, 02:36 PM
  #31
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Top 5 goalie all-time who didn't know when to hang it up.

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10-13-2012, 02:40 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I think it has a lot to do with how great Gretzky and Mario were... mostly in a much higher scoring era. Jagr was Mario's match at even strength, but he was not going to outscore him when the power play went through Mario (and he was a master on the PP too). By the time he reached his prime, the franchise was starting to go downhill due to management problems, so there's this impression that Mario "led the Pens to Cups all by himself" while Jagr "couldn't."

Did you mean that Jagr didn't separate himself as much from his peers as Hasek? Because he certainly did so WAY more than Kurri IMO. If you did mean Hasek, I'd agree, however each was clearly the dominant player at his position during the same era.

I can understand why Hasek is ranked as perhaps the best goalie ever, he was the dominator after all. It's just perplexing how seemingly the same people that have no problem putting Hasek alongside or above past greats like Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Dryden, etc. will bristle when it's reasonably suggested that Jagr belongs at least on the same level as players like Bobby Hull. I'm just trying to understand why there's such a stark difference in the treatment of these two legends of the DPE.
Well, I think Jagr certainly belongs in the conversation when talking about the greatest forwards so I agree it's a bit perplexing that he doesn't at least get a shout. A numbers game maybe? Afterall there's been a many great forwards but not that many great goaltenders so it's easier for a great forward to get lost in the mix while a great goaltender tends to stand out more since he has fewer players sharing the limelight.

As far as the Kurri-Jagr comparison, Kurri really had only Bossy as a consistent goal scoring rival as a winger while Jagr never really could shake the Bondras and Bures and Sellanes in a goal scoring race.

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10-13-2012, 02:57 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Jagr was Mario's match at even strength, but he was not going to outscore him when the power play went through Mario (and he was a master on the PP too).
Misleading statement. By the time Mario was starting to decline and Jagr was entering his prime maybe.
Mario was already 31 when Jagr "caught up" to him.

Jagr at any time in his career does NOT match up to a pre-'94 (Hodgkin's) Mario Lemeiux at any strength.

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10-13-2012, 03:15 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I'd argue that the current crop of hybrid goalies (Quick would be the poster child) have just as much in common with Hasek as they have with Roy.
maybe, but wouldn't you say they are patterning themselves after brodeur?

i just think hasek was such an inimitable talent, which depending on your point of view could put him on either side of roy.

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10-13-2012, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
Top 5 goalie all-time who didn't know when to hang it up.
He retired as a KHL all-star. Do so many more goalies retire graciously before "declining" to that level?

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10-13-2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
He retired as a KHL all-star. Do so many more goalies retire graciously before "declining" to that level?
Yet he was outplayed by the likes of Vitaly Yeremev and Andrei Mezin.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league...HL&season=2010
Nothing impressive from an all-time great.

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10-13-2012, 03:47 PM
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He retired as a KHL all-star. Do so many more goalies retire graciously before "declining" to that level?
Yeah. I also don't understand comments that Hasek played way too long. In 2007 he was great while playing for Detroit. Yes, 2008 he was very average, but still an NHL goalie without any doubt. Then he goes to play for his Czech team, totally shuts the door in the playoffs and wins the championship. After that he goes to the KHL and has more shutouts than any other goalie. Hasek was good until his very last game.

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10-13-2012, 04:16 PM
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He was a "late bloomer" that starred in the third best league in the world and internationally (wasn't he the youngest professional in history when he first joined HC Pardubice?) who also "hung on too long" by winning a championship in his domestic league and having a really good season in the 2nd best league in the world in his mid-40's...

I'm always learning here...

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10-13-2012, 04:29 PM
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Yet he was outplayed by the likes of Vitaly Yeremev and Andrei Mezin.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league...HL&season=2010
Nothing impressive from an all-time great.
I don't even know what that is supposed to mean to anyone, but all I can tell you is that only one goalie played in more games than Hasek, and his numbers still compared very favourably to every single goalie that played anywhere near as many games. Not bad for a guy in his late 40s.

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10-13-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I don't even know what that is supposed to mean to anyone, but all I can tell you is that only one goalie played in more games than Hasek, and his numbers still compared very favourably to every single goalie that played anywhere near as many games. Not bad for a guy in his late 40s.
The problem is that's the equivalent of Patrick Roy today suiting up for the Remparts and "comparing favorably".

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10-13-2012, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Yet he was outplayed by the likes of Vitaly Yeremev and Andrei Mezin.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/league...HL&season=2010
Nothing impressive from an all-time great.
I mean, for whatever it's worth, he was one of five goalies to be selected to the All-Star Game there...and the two goalies you named have been representing their respective countries for a combined ~25 years or so I believe...

Similarly, Matt Ellison had as many points as Jaromir Jagr...are we really going to indict Jagr on that?

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10-13-2012, 04:37 PM
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I don't even know what that is supposed to mean to anyone, but all I can tell you is that only one goalie played in more games than Hasek, and his numbers still compared very favourably to every single goalie that played anywhere near as many games. Not bad for a guy in his late 40s.
Except for the ones who were better like Vehanen and Ramo, right?

If you're looking to give Hasek credit for his performances where he "wasn't bad for a guy in his late 40s," you're fully entitled, but considering it noteworthy in the context of his career (and other all time greats) is simply missing the boat.

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I mean, for whatever it's worth, he was one of five goalies to be selected to the All-Star Game there...and the two goalies you named have been representing their respective countries for a combined ~25 years or so I believe...
Which is why we should be skeptical of fan-centric all-star games as opposed to the post-season all star awards, right?

Quote:
Similarly, Matt Ellison had as many points as Jaromir Jagr...are we really going to indict Jagr on that?
Certainly if the claim was that his KHL years added something meaningful to his already superlative resume.

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10-13-2012, 04:42 PM
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Except for the ones who were better like Vehanen and Ramo, right?

If you're looking to give Hasek credit for his performances where he "wasn't bad for a guy in his late 40s," you're fully entitled, but considering it noteworthy in the context of his career (and other all time greats) is simply missing the boat.
I don't want to put words in O_J's mouth here...but his defense is that Hasek didn't hang on too long, he played at a rather high level even into his last days...it's not really about adding to his resume, it's just about the product overall...it was good from 17 years old to 47 years old...there's really no "Messier time" tacked on for puff...

Look at how some others went out...Barrasso, Richter, Vachon, even Belfour who went down swinging on some brutal teams, Grant Fuhr went out in a blaze of sour grapes with Calgary...Hasek left as an All-Star in the second best league in the world...he didn't fade into oblivion like some of these other guys...

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10-13-2012, 04:46 PM
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I don't want to put words in O_J's mouth here...but his defense is that Hasek didn't hang on too long, he played at a rather high level even into his last days...it's not really about adding to his resume, it's just about the product overall...it was good from 17 years old to 47 years old...there's really no "Messier time" tacked on for puff...

Look at how some others went out...Barrasso, Richter, Vachon, even Belfour who went down swinging on some brutal teams, Grant Fuhr went out in a blaze of sour grapes with Calgary...Hasek left as an All-Star in the second best league in the world...he didn't fade into oblivion like some of these other guys...
This is true, I'm sort of blending posts from the goalie project thread I suppose. I don't think Hasek's final stints were meaningless, just not particularly noteworthy.

It's interesting Ziggy Palffy has been tearing the Slovak league up (much weaker obviously) but I don't think it's really evidence he can still hang in the NHL or adds anything to his career value.

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10-13-2012, 04:54 PM
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From 93 until 2000/01 he played some of the best hockey the world has ever seen. Now, Roy could really step it up to a completely nother level in the playoffs, big credit to him.
Brodeur, as much as I like to watch him play and all his accolades, I just have him one notch below those two.

Between Hasek and Roy, I just can't decide, it's a toss up, changes from day to day. Roy is definitely my favorite goalie of all times, but Hasek was hella good. I don't buy that him playing a few years to many should tarnish his legacy at all.

I won't comment on players I haven't seen enough of, so the Hall's, Sawchuck's and Dryden's I won't rank.

Thanks

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10-13-2012, 04:54 PM
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The problem is that's the equivalent of Patrick Roy today suiting up for the Remparts and "comparing favorably".
No it's not. Like, not even remotely.

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10-13-2012, 04:55 PM
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No it's not. Like, not even remotely.
Yes it is. Like, absolutely.

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10-13-2012, 04:56 PM
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Greatest goalie of all time.

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10-13-2012, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Except for the ones who were better like Vehanen and Ramo, right?

If you're looking to give Hasek credit for his performances where he "wasn't bad for a guy in his late 40s," you're fully entitled, but considering it noteworthy in the context of his career (and other all time greats) is simply missing the boat.


Which is why we should be skeptical of fan-centric all-star games as opposed to the post-season all star awards, right?


Certainly if the claim was that his KHL years added something meaningful to his already superlative resume.
Whoa, whoa dude. This isn't about whether or not anything is "noteworthy". It's about whether or not Hasek hung around in pro hockey too long. I submit to you that clearly he didn't.

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10-13-2012, 04:57 PM
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Whoa, whoa dude. This isn't about whether or not anything is "noteworthy". It's about whether or not Hasek hung around in pro hockey too long. I submit to you that clearly he didn't.
Compared to the NHL the KHL is a joke.

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