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Tallon won't trade Bjugstad for Luongo

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Old
10-13-2012, 03:37 PM
  #126
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
James Reimer SVP over 70 NHL games = 0.911
Ken Dryden SVP over 56 NHL games = 0.906

OH EM GEE U GUISE! REIMER IZ BETTER THAN KEN DRYDEN!
I believe we're talking career sv%. Huge difference.

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Old
10-13-2012, 03:39 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
Luongo? This is a joke, right? Depending on how late of a 1st we are talking about, Luongo would be worth multiple.

Legit top goalie, for a single boom or bust prospect = not even close.
How is Bjugstad a boom or bust prospect?

He's not a one trick pony in the NCAA

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Old
10-13-2012, 03:43 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I believe we're talking career sv%. Huge difference.
And it's a weak point to make: There is zero context to the numbers. What was the quality of the shots that were faced (for example)?

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10-13-2012, 03:44 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by ShootIt View Post
How is Bjugstad a boom or bust prospect?

He's not a one trick pony in the NCAA
Pretty sure he meant with a later first round pick for Luongo.

I mean Bjugstad isn't a 100% sure thing, no prospect is, but he's showing signs he could be the real deal, even in my limited scope of his play.

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Old
10-13-2012, 04:03 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post


Quick
Smith
Rinne
Fleury
Howard
Thomas
Miller
Price

Schneider
Pavelec
Ward
Hiller
Brodeur
Anderson
Kiprusoff

But he's "just believing the hype".
Only goalies I would take instead of Luongo (and Brodeur's even questionable)

Luongo is better than Schneider, but Schneider is more level headed and has more future potential, so getting rid of Lu makes more sense

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10-13-2012, 04:12 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
And it's a weak point to make: There is zero context to the numbers. What was the quality of the shots that were faced (for example)?
Im sure over a career save % the quality of shots would regress towards the mean.

In a sample size that large, there should be little to no variance.

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10-13-2012, 04:19 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post


Quick
Smith
Rinne
Fleury
Howard
Thomas
Miller
Price
Schneider
Pavelec
Ward
Hiller
Brodeur
Anderson
Kiprusoff

But he's "just believing the hype".
I can understand not liking Luongo but im curious as to what factored into you putting a guy like Craig "I was waived 3 times in 2 weeks" Anderson ahead of him.

I mean I know everyones goalie lists are subjective and not accurate but this is definitely... Different from most peoples.

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Old
10-13-2012, 04:23 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpierPegasus View Post
Only goalies I would take instead of Luongo (and Brodeur's even questionable)

Luongo is better than Schneider, but Schneider is more level headed and has more future potential, so getting rid of Lu makes more sense
The fact the list is missing King Henerik is um....

But this is your opinion, I think Lou is a good goalie, but I wouldn't wish my teams home market on him. I would actually stick with Howard over him, no disrespect to him. I don't think he would fit in Detroit at all. I also think Cam Ward is better if the team in front of him actually gets better we would find that out.

Luongo is a good goalie but I wouldn't pay a premium to get him. Bjugstad is a premium in my opinion.

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10-13-2012, 04:24 PM
  #134
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I make fun of Luongo as much as the next Flames fan but he is no doubt a top goaltender.

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10-13-2012, 04:29 PM
  #135
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Lundqvist, Quick, and Rinne all play in better defensive systems than Luongo, but I can definitely understand putting them above Luongo. Price and Luongo are similar in skill level to me. Miller/Ward are slightly below them(imho).

I have Luongo in my top 5, but there's no real rationale for having him out of the top 10.

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10-13-2012, 04:31 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by ProspectProphet View Post
just pointing out too that;

Quote:
The General Manager of the Year Award is awarded annually to the top National Hockey League general manager as voted by "a 40-member panel that included all 30 general managers, five NHL executives and five media members.
So he was recognized by his peers as the best gm of the year that year.

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Old
10-13-2012, 04:33 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpierPegasus View Post
Only goalies I would take instead of Luongo (and Brodeur's even questionable)

Luongo is better than Schneider, but Schneider is more level headed and has more future potential, so getting rid of Lu makes more sense
Luongo is better than Brodeur easily. The rest I agree with.

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Old
10-13-2012, 04:43 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think Clemmerson might make more sense, as Theodore has a NTC.

Something like:

To Vancouver: Petrovic, LA 1st, Goc

To Florida: Luongo

To Columbus: Clemmerson + Raymond + Fla 3rd

Maybe? Although hopefully once the season starts we can get a better idea of who might be interested, as Florida isn't really a good fit for us rosterwise.
Umm, that's not good at all for Florida. Florida's giving up Petrovic, Goc, Clemmensen and a 3rd for Luongo?! Again, Florida is not giving up that much for Luongo. And especially since the Panthers don't actually need him.

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Old
10-13-2012, 04:59 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Lundqvist, Quick, and Rinne all play in better defensive systems than Luongo, but I can definitely understand putting them above Luongo. Price and Luongo are similar in skill level to me. Miller/Ward are slightly below them(imho).

I have Luongo in my top 5, but there's no real rationale for having him out of the top 10.
Price is better than Luongo. He plays the puck better. Controls rebounds better. And is quicker although they both play the conservative positional style. Mix that in with he's younger and fresher and he's the better goalie. Luongo and Miller are fighting for the title of 5th best goalie. Cam Ward IMO is overrated.

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:01 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I wouldn't trade Bjugstad for Luongo either. I understand why the Canucks are asking but there isn't much that could interest me in trading Bjugstad away period, much less the contract problems and the fact Vancouver is going to eventually be pressured into moving Luongo for a discount. They might not be yet, but it will become an issue eventually.
i wouldn't trade Bjugstad for Luongo either. if i'm Florida, i'm not doing the Canucks any favours, especially giving up one of my best prospects for Luongo....especially since Markstom is apparently NHL ready.

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10-13-2012, 05:02 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post


Quick
Smith
Rinne
Fleury
Howard
Thomas
Miller
Price
Schneider
Pavelec
Ward
Hiller
Brodeur
Anderson
Kiprusoff

But he's "just believing the hype".
Lundqvist?

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:07 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
Price is better than Luongo. He plays the puck better. Controls rebounds better. And is quicker although they both play the conservative positional style. Mix that in with he's younger and fresher and he's the better goalie. Luongo and Miller are fighting for the title of 5th best goalie. Cam Ward IMO is overrated.
Luongo has been better than Miller every single year apart from his Vezina season.

I agree Price has better puckhandling skills, although I think Luongo has more raw talent. Either way they make up the 4/5 on my list.

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10-13-2012, 05:07 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Why not? By what measure would you say he isn't a top goalie? I have never heard amyone say that. I've heard "overrated" or "choker", but no one denies he's an excellent goaltender(except you).
He's just not a Top5 Goalie and is around 8-12 by what people prefer.

this has just not much to do with his worth in a trade market. I think you know about supply and demand.


Maybe you should take some time and think about all the teams that really would need a goalie for whatever reason

Isles (not for next season with Nabby and a right now healthy DiPi - only matter of time until he will be out again)
Hawks
Leafs
maybe Panthers but they would be stupid with 2 NHLers and Markstrom waiting
maybe Oilers - something Gillis would never allow to happen. Could hurt them more than a deal to the Hawks

that's it. Not really a long list. Not sure if Luongo would even waive for the Isles which limits the list again.


Quote:
I haven't asked for Hossa(in this thread at least). All I've said is that Luongo has similar value to Hossa.
now you have a difference to this sentence you made... about 25-29 teams would show interest in Hossa. About 25-29 would make an offer and the bidding war would be much much better for the Hawks. This alone gives Hossa a better TRADE WORTH. Supply and demand again here



Next up, all of those teams have goalies under contract that have gotten some trust before by their coaches and GMs. Panthers have no reason to overpay or get into a bidding war. They have their #1 in Theo who was a Vezina winner in the past (this argument is as stupid as Luongos numbers from 3-8 years ago ) but he DID help them to make the POs. They also have their #2 signed and a potential future #1 waiting in the AHL. They have absolutly no reason to give up anything of real value for Luongo. The need just isn't as big as giving up one of the best prospects they have and a Top50 prospect in the NHL

The Hawks? They have 2 goalies signed too, would be up against the Cap and have 2 of those LOOOOOONNG Term contracts already. Bowman is a believer in going cheap in net and to stay patient on the trade market until the right deal comes - without taking much risks and overpaying.
Quote:
for all we know the offer was Bolland+Saad+1st.
again something you came up with. something no Hawks Fan has ever heard before until you posted it 2 days ago. Something we know for sure that this never even was in discussion for Bowman. All 4 Hawks writers turned down that Bowman would trade Bolland away, let alone to the Nucks.
Hawks will not pay what you would want or accept - if they would take him away for free anyway with his contract.


The Leafs are the most logical team to get him, but they will not pay a kings random and they would be over the cap (for all the specualtion we can come up with)



Last but not least, we have some comparable goalie trades. Halak went for a good, not great and as highly touted as Bjugstad IS after a perfect PO run. Varlamov got the Caps a highly projected draft pick that ended up at the postition it was thought it will end up.
or what about the last Luongo trade? Bertuzzi wasn't that same 90 point PWF he once was after all that happened. He was done by that time and the next 2-3 years. He was an upcoming UFA and not worth as much as you think. Allen and Auld weren't that much special and Luongo was 6 years younger without a choker reputation (if it's his fault or not doesn't matter when it comes to reputation [aka once a *****, always a *****]) and a lifetime contract.



In the end, a compareable deal would be Campbell to FLA... good player with bad contract for most teams and limited possible destinations. Hawks got a cap dump back but BC never even asked to be traded.



You expect a return that Luongo won't bring back

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:21 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post


Quick
Smith
Rinne
Fleury
Howard
Thomas
Miller
Price
Schneider
Pavelec
Ward
Hiller
Brodeur
Anderson
Kiprusoff

But he's "just believing the hype".
The Bolded are the only goalies who have consistently put up excellent numbers and performance over the last 10 years. To you it might be a matter of opinion but it is fact that Lou is better now then Price, Schneider, Hiller, Anderson, Fluery, Thomas, Kipper, Pavelec, and Ward. He might not have the upside of the younger goalies but he is still an established better goalie than them at the moment.

EDIT: So you are saying Anderson better then Lundqvist? So you think DiPietro was god like too?

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10-13-2012, 05:25 PM
  #145
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Actually Luongo is voted by HF as the 7th best goalie, so "by what most people prefer" is not 8-12. And that's with anti-Canucks bias, which unfortunately does exist.

Also, all it takes is two teams with a genuine need for an elite goaltender(not Florida, I'll admit) in order to get fair value. There's not much diffetence between the 4-5 teams interested in Luongo and the 20+ teams interested in Hossa, as long as more than one of the teams involved really needs a goaltender.

And I think you missed the point of that offer. The fact is none of us have any inkling what is being offered, and it's ridiculous to pretend to "know" what's being offered.

And Campbell is an awful comparison because
1) The Hawks needed cap space. We don't.
2) Luongo is better than Campbell(especially at the time of the trade)
3) Luongo plays a more important position
4) Luongo is cheaper


And forgive me if I prefer my own valuation of Luongo to a fan of a rival team.

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10-13-2012, 05:30 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Actually Luongo is voted by HF as the 7th best goalie, so "by what most people prefer" is not 8-12. And that's with anti-Canucks bias, which unfortunately does exist.

Also, all it takes is two teams with a genuine need for an elite goaltender(not Florida, I'll admit) in order to get fair value. There's not much diffetence between the 4-5 teams interested in Luongo and the 20+ teams interested in Hossa, as long as more than one of the teams involved really needs a goaltender.

And I think you missed the point of that offer. The fact is none of us have any inkling what is being offered, and it's ridiculous to pretend to "know" what's being offered.

And Campbell is an awful comparison because
1) The Hawks needed cap space. We don't.
2) Luongo is better than Campbell(especially at the time of the trade)
3) Luongo plays a more important position
4) Luongo is cheaper


And forgive me if I prefer my own valuation of Luongo to a fan of a rival team.
7 over 8 is close enough in my opinion. Your points are valid because you acknowledge the slight homerism. Fair enough. I am not a Lou or a Canucks fan but i will not demote his skill in net. He is IMO top 10 in the league. But this is HF, where potential is more important than consistency. Lou has his faults (SCF, Playoff choke blah blah) but I don't see Lundqvist (top 3 goalie) with any rings, or better playoff track record.

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10-13-2012, 05:33 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
The Bolded are the only goalies who have consistently put up excellent numbers and performance over the last 10 years. To you it might be a matter of opinion but it is fact that Lou is better now then Price, Schneider, Hiller, Anderson, Fluery, Thomas, Kipper, Pavelec, and Ward. He might not have the upside of the younger goalies but he is still an established better goalie than them at the moment.

EDIT: So you are saying Anderson better then Lundqvist? So you think DiPietro was god like too?
Jimmy Howard's given an excellent performance over the last 10 years? He's had two good seasons and a bad one playing behind a defense powered by one of the best defenseman to ever play the game.

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10-13-2012, 05:42 PM
  #148
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I don't understand why people get mad because someone posts info. If you've already heard it then carry on cause maybe some one else hasn't. I enjoy reading these boards and learn alot of things on here that I don't hear on TV or at the rink. Just my $0.02

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:46 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
The fact the list is missing King Henerik is um....

But this is your opinion, I think Lou is a good goalie, but I wouldn't wish my teams home market on him. I would actually stick with Howard over him, no disrespect to him. I don't think he would fit in Detroit at all. I also think Cam Ward is better if the team in front of him actually gets better we would find that out.

Luongo is a good goalie but I wouldn't pay a premium to get him. Bjugstad is a premium in my opinion.
I was thinking this too. Needz moar Lundqvist! A list not including the reigning Vezina champ is an incomplete one.

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10-13-2012, 06:09 PM
  #150
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Any goalie list with Pavlec over Luongo is insane. Same with Anderson, Smith, Fluery, Thomas (who is not playing), Hiller, Brodeur, or Kipper.

I take Luongo over Ward and Price, as did team Canada. Luongo has also consistently out performed Miller except for one season despite them only being a year apart. Howard is worse behind a much better offensive team while Rinne is comparable behind a much better defensive team.

I've really only got Quick and Lundqvist ahead of Luongo with Rinne as a maybe.

The key point is: Even if you include the remainder of the top 5-6, who else is available at all?

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