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Tallon won't trade Bjugstad for Luongo

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Old
10-13-2012, 06:17 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
And it's a weak point to make: There is zero context to the numbers. What was the quality of the shots that were faced (for example)?
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/6/26/shot...nd-shot-totals

Luongo has been on good teams and bad, his save percentage has been good to great every year. Some of the guys listed as "better" have maybe one season at or above Luongo's career average. In 2011 Lu was third in save percentage and a Vezina finalist, it isn't like he's fallen off in recent years.

Of the last 10 Vezina winners, 8 of them have been top 4 in save percentage, 7 in the top 3, 4 finished 1st. You might not put a lot of stock in save percentage but it's as good a measure as any.

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10-13-2012, 06:17 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Actually Luongo is voted by HF as the 7th best goalie, so "by what most people prefer" is not 8-12. And that's with anti-Canucks bias, which unfortunately does exist.

Also, all it takes is two teams with a genuine need for an elite goaltender(not Florida, I'll admit) in order to get fair value. There's not much diffetence between the 4-5 teams interested in Luongo and the 20+ teams interested in Hossa, as long as more than one of the teams involved really needs a goaltender.

And I think you missed the point of that offer. The fact is none of us have any inkling what is being offered, and it's ridiculous to pretend to "know" what's being offered.

And Campbell is an awful comparison because
1) The Hawks needed cap space. We don't.
2) Luongo is better than Campbell(especially at the time of the trade)
3) Luongo plays a more important position
4) Luongo is cheaper


And forgive me if I prefer my own valuation of Luongo to a fan of a rival team.
Even this is in question. Yes they have a great prospect at that position, but is he an elite NHL goalie? No. Could he be? absolutely, but if people still question Cory Schneider, then Markstrom is still anything but proven, and he would be lucky if he becomes anywhere as good as Luongo. If he already was, then he would've been Florida's starter last year.

I'm not saying Florida desperately wants Luongo, or that they don't believe in Markstrom, but there is a reason that they met with Luongo and have talked to Gillis. They have at the very least, entertained the idea of acquiring Luongo. I'm not saying they should be throwing Hubey or Bjugs at the Nucks, but even the team with the #1 ranked goalie prospect is still interested to some degree. Obviously, Luongo has higher value then almost everyone admits.

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10-13-2012, 06:39 PM
  #153
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this has just not much to do with his worth in a trade market. I think you know about supply and demand.
Some teams might not have a real need in net but they really want to improve. There isn't a lot of ways left to do that. IMO that opens the market up. I also think that teams are getting smart and trending towards having two really good goalies. Gone are the days of guys starting 70 games and you can't throw away 20+ games on a bad backup goalie, the races are way too close. Your backup can easily be the difference between making the playoffs or not.

People act like having a good young goalie and a veteran is a bad thing. The Canucks and Bruins have been pretty successful with it in recent years.

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10-13-2012, 06:42 PM
  #154
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You can't blame Gillis for trying!!

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10-13-2012, 06:53 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Some teams might not have a real need in net but they really want to improve. There isn't a lot of ways left to do that. IMO that opens the market up. I also think that teams are getting smart and trending towards having two really good goalies. Gone are the days of guys starting 70 games and you can't throw away 20+ games on a bad backup goalie, the races are way too close. Your backup can easily be the difference between making the playoffs or not.

People act like having a good young goalie and a veteran is a bad thing. The Canucks and Bruins have been pretty successful with it in recent years.


then why is Vancouver trying to trade Luongo and Thomas reportedly is reportedly taking the year off because he did not want to be traded or wanted control of the situation?
Good goaltending is good however there is a problem when you have two good goalies and it never ends well until one is traded

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10-13-2012, 06:57 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post


Quick
Smith
Rinne
Fleury
Howard
Thomas
Miller
Price
Schneider
Pavelec
Ward
Hiller
Brodeur
Anderson
Kiprusoff

But he's "just believing the hype".
I would like to know you're reasoning behind this list. I can tell you that Smith, Howard, Miller, Pavelec, Hiller, and Anderson are for sure not better than Luongo. The rest aside from Quick and Thomas are debatable.

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10-13-2012, 06:58 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
[/B]

then why is Vancouver trying to trade Luongo and Thomas reportedly is reportedly taking the year off because he did not want to be traded or wanted control of the situation?
Good goaltending is good however there is a problem when you have two good goalies and it never ends well until one is traded
If the young guy gets good and needs to get paid you have a decision to make. In the meantime, you get great goaltending almost every night. Believe me, it's a nice problem to have.

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10-13-2012, 07:37 PM
  #158
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If the young guy gets good and needs to get paid you have a decision to make. In the meantime, you get great goaltending almost every night. Believe me, it's a nice problem to have.
Florida has there future goalie in the system and he maybe ready sooner then later. Unless the canuck are willing to take a mid level prospect and a second rounder for Luongo, I do not see the Panthers giving up anything of Value for him. In two years they could find themselves in the same situation the canucks do right now.
Luongo is 33 right now and has played a lot of hockey in his career already. add two years he will be 35 and that might scare a few teams away. And the big wild card is what the new CBA will look like and how it treats contracts like Luongo. Luongo will more then likely retire after the 17/18 season when he is 39 and have 4 years left on his contract. There is a small group of owners who are rumoured to be trying to get a clause put in the CBA that deals with these type of deals where the cap hit will be a lot less then they should have been. If Luongo retired after the 17/18 season the cap hit teams had been getting will be nearly 2million under what it should have been.
So there are several problems with trading Luongo

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10-13-2012, 10:58 PM
  #159
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How is Bjugstad a boom or bust prospect?

He's not a one trick pony in the NCAA
I like Bjugstad as much as anyone, in fact I think I may have been one of the people who helped his hype-train get going, because he's been very intriguing to me for a couple years now. But let's be honest: he is not a sure fire prospect. He's certainly not Gretzky. Do you have any idea how many points Gretzky would put up in college if he'd played?? It would have been insane. Bjugstad didn't put up insane numbers. He put up good numbers. But it's not like he tore the league up. He wasn't even the top scorer on his team (he was 3rd). He was point per game. That's fairly common actually. He wasn't top-15 in college scoring. In fact he wasn't even top-15 in scoring just counting the WCHA and Hockey East. To illustrate this point, Justin Schultz played in the same conference as Bjugstad - WCHA - and put up more points (in fewer games) than Bjugstad, as a defenseman. There were quite a few guys around ppg.

So he was a good, though not amazing, scorer at the college level. So what makes him a sure-fire prospect? Well, he has size. The problem is that he has a hard time using it. In fact he's been called "soft" by some analysts. And of course, the other big knock on him is his speed. He's a slow skater. That's one of the biggest differences between the college level and the NHL level - the speed of the game.

So is he "sure-fire"? Well, he's a big, softish (he can be aggressively physical but he usually isn't) slow center with a very good stick. Is he sure-fire? Probably, I expect him to be in the NHL, just due to his size. And he could become a really good second line center. But he could just as easily become a non-aggressive fourth line center who has trouble keeping up with NHL pace.

I've been following him for quite a while now, so I wish him the best of luck, and hope his skill can translate to the NHL. But I'm not waiting for a Gretzy-Lemieux hybrid in the making.

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10-14-2012, 01:30 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by JumpierPegasus View Post
Only goalies I would take instead of Luongo (and Brodeur's even questionable)

Luongo is better than Schneider, but Schneider is more level headed and has more future potential, so getting rid of Lu makes more sense


That's pretty funny. Of course Brodeur's "even questionable": He's stunk since before the 2010 Olympics. Thanks for that.


Last edited by DyerMaker66: 10-14-2012 at 01:41 AM.
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10-14-2012, 01:36 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Why not? By what measure would you say he isn't a top goalie? I have never heard amyone say that. I've heard "overrated" or "choker", but no one denies he's an excellent goaltender(except you).
Because I can easily name 10+ teams that I wouldn't have him starting on (I assume that Top 10 can be considered a good measure of a top goalie).

The only people who overrate him are delusional Canucks' fans.

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10-14-2012, 01:53 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Back in 94 View Post
I would like to know you're reasoning behind this list. I can tell you that Smith, Howard, Miller, Pavelec, Hiller, and Anderson are for sure not better than Luongo. The rest aside from Quick and Thomas are debatable.
Ryan Miller is for sure not better than Roberto Luongo?

There's no "debate": He stinks; and I even forgot to mention King Henrik.

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10-14-2012, 01:55 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Because I can easily name 10+ teams that I wouldn't have him starting on (I assume that Top 10 can be considered a good measure of a top goalie).

The only people who overrate him are delusional Canucks' fans.
Can you now? I'm an Oilers fan, and I even think that was a stupid comment.

Quick
Lundquist
Rinne
Price


Then there's Lehtonen/Ward/Miller/Luongo/Fleury/Howard/Kiprusoff.

He's probably in the 7 range.

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10-14-2012, 02:01 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
The Bolded are the only goalies who have consistently put up excellent numbers and performance over the last 10 years. To you it might be a matter of opinion but it is fact that Lou is better now then Price, Schneider, Hiller, Anderson, Fluery, Thomas, Kipper, Pavelec, and Ward. He might not have the upside of the younger goalies but he is still an established better goalie than them at the moment.

EDIT: So you are saying Anderson better then Lundqvist? So you think DiPietro was god like too?
What was said:

Quote:
To anyone who thinks Lou is anything less than at worst 10th best goalie in the league is just believing the hype.
What I replied with:

Quote:
Quick
Smith
Rinne
Fleury
Howard
Thomas
Miller
Price
Schneider
Pavelec
Ward
Hiller
Brodeur
Anderson
Kiprusoff
That does not mean that there are not more goalies than I listed that are better than Bobby Lou.

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10-14-2012, 02:09 AM
  #165
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Ryan Miller is for sure not better than Roberto Luongo?

There's no "debate": He stinks; and I even forgot to mention King Henrik.
You still haven't explained why you'd take all those names over Luongo. Saying "he stinks" isn't an argument, especially when virtually everyone disagrees with you.

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10-14-2012, 02:09 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
What was said:



What I replied with:



That does not mean that there are not more goalies than I listed that are better than Bobby Lou.
Just a question - have you ever actually watched a hockey game before?

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10-14-2012, 02:50 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
Just a question - have you ever actually watched a hockey game before?
Several and Luongo's terrible play in the 2010 Olympics and 2011 SCF (despite what 'Nucks fans like to believe) have stuck out like a sore thumb. How about you?

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10-14-2012, 03:00 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Several and Luongo's terrible play in the 2010 Olympics and 2011 SCF (despite what 'Nucks fans like to believe) have stuck out like a sore thumb. How about you?
at the whole post just

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10-14-2012, 03:07 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
You still haven't explained why you'd take all those names over Luongo. Saying "he stinks" isn't an argument, especially when virtually everyone disagrees with you.
What do you want me to say? Watch the guy play: He's Vancouver's achilles heel and he was nearly Canada's. A couple quotes from the "2014 Olympic Roster" Thread:

Quote:
Quote:
Actually that was so true about the Pavelski shot, since I held my breath for a couple of seconds.).
Aye Mehar,

The fact that it still stands out in your mind, after 2 years, shows the insecurity Canada felt EVERY time Luongo faced a shot - no matter how weak.
He is a starter on some teams, but he's not the "Top 7"-ish guy that has been claimed in this thread.

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10-14-2012, 03:14 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
Can you now? I'm an Oilers fan, and I even think that was a stupid comment.

Quick
Lundquist
Rinne
Price


Then there's Lehtonen/Ward/Miller/Luongo/Fleury/Howard/Kiprusoff.

He's probably in the 7 range.
He's not at all (Using 2011-12 Teams): LA, Montreal, Nashville, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Calgary, Carolina, Boston (with or without Thomas), Vancouver, St. Louis (1 and 2), Winnipeg, Phoenix, Detroit, Anaheim, Winnipeg, Ottawa, NYR, Dallas, Minnesota,
San Jose.

Teams I start him on: Toronto, Edmonton, Philly, Columbus, Washington, Colorado, Tampa Bay, Islanders, Florida.

Toss-up (go with the hot goaltender): Chicago.

That puts him at about 20th.

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10-14-2012, 03:18 AM
  #171
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at the whole post just
Passive–aggressive replies make Baby Jesus cry.

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10-14-2012, 04:26 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
He's not at all (Using 2011-12 Teams): LA, Montreal, Nashville, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Calgary, Carolina, Boston (with or without Thomas), Vancouver, St. Louis (1 and 2), Winnipeg, Phoenix, Detroit, Anaheim, Winnipeg, Ottawa, NYR, Dallas, Minnesota,
San Jose.

Teams I start him on: Toronto, Edmonton, Philly, Columbus, Washington, Colorado, Tampa Bay, Islanders, Florida.

Toss-up (go with the hot goaltender): Chicago.

That puts him at about 20th.
Holy cow. They end the Luongo prohibition and you show up.

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10-14-2012, 04:55 AM
  #173
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Every 2nd post is the same guy bashing Luongo.

We get it, you don't need to constantly repeat yourself.

As for the thread, I would expect Luongo to stay with the Canucks this year (if there is even a season). With only Chicago, Toronto and Florida looking for a goaltending upgrade there just isn't enough of a market to warrant trading him.

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10-14-2012, 05:13 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
He's not at all (Using 2011-12 Teams): LA, Montreal, Nashville, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Calgary, Carolina, Boston (with or without Thomas), Vancouver, St. Louis (1 and 2), Winnipeg, Phoenix, Detroit, Anaheim, Winnipeg, Ottawa, NYR, Dallas, Minnesota,
San Jose.

Teams I start him on: Toronto, Edmonton, Philly, Columbus, Washington, Colorado, Tampa Bay, Islanders, Florida.

Toss-up (go with the hot goaltender): Chicago.

That puts him at about 20th.
So you put Lou lower than Smith who in Tampa (as a fan/homer) was sub-par, Hiller who hasn't done much for them, Pavelec who didn't bring them in the play offs, Anderson who has been waived multiple times, Kipper who is probably equal too or less accomplished over Lou?

All I sense is malice on your end. I am not a Canuck fan, or even a Lou fan at that. Check my previous posts, but seriously your assessment is ridiculous. Lou on 20+ teams in the league makes them better, no questions asked. Whether they are willing to give up whatever Gillis asks is a question all on it's own. But it doesn't take away from the fact that he is still an elite goalie today.

I have seen some dumb crap on HF, from proposals (not going to name names due to the fact the ban hammer will come to me if I name names. [DTMB, SF, MMDK, etc...]) to assessments, but your blind hatred seems to take the cake. I will say this is my 2 cents and everything is subjective but come on man (if you are woman, I apologize for assuming you are a man.).

EDIT: As my 1000th post I would also like to add... Testicles... That is all.

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10-14-2012, 06:25 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
I like Bjugstad as much as anyone, in fact I think I may have been one of the people who helped his hype-train get going, because he's been very intriguing to me for a couple years now. But let's be honest: he is not a sure fire prospect. He's certainly not Gretzky. Do you have any idea how many points Gretzky would put up in college if he'd played?? It would have been insane. Bjugstad didn't put up insane numbers. He put up good numbers. But it's not like he tore the league up. He wasn't even the top scorer on his team (he was 3rd). He was point per game. That's fairly common actually. He wasn't top-15 in college scoring. In fact he wasn't even top-15 in scoring just counting the WCHA and Hockey East. To illustrate this point, Justin Schultz played in the same conference as Bjugstad - WCHA - and put up more points (in fewer games) than Bjugstad, as a defenseman. There were quite a few guys around ppg.

So he was a good, though not amazing, scorer at the college level. So what makes him a sure-fire prospect? Well, he has size. The problem is that he has a hard time using it. In fact he's been called "soft" by some analysts. And of course, the other big knock on him is his speed. He's a slow skater. That's one of the biggest differences between the college level and the NHL level - the speed of the game.

So is he "sure-fire"? Well, he's a big, softish (he can be aggressively physical but he usually isn't) slow center with a very good stick. Is he sure-fire? Probably, I expect him to be in the NHL, just due to his size. And he could become a really good second line center. But he could just as easily become a non-aggressive fourth line center who has trouble keeping up with NHL pace.

I've been following him for quite a while now, so I wish him the best of luck, and hope his skill can translate to the NHL. But I'm not waiting for a Gretzy-Lemieux hybrid in the making.
LOL, Bjugstad is not slow and he's far from soft. That's the problem with relying on 'analysts'. I watch almost all his games. Actually, he has terrific agility for a guy his size. You dont see many 6'6" guys who can skate like he does.

Skrudland always is too liberal with the praise for Panthers' prospects, so his comments really shouldnt be taken seriously. Is he a surefite prospect lemieux/gretzky hybrid? No. But he is a great prospect who many Panthers fans regard as almost cant miss because of his strong all around game. He was voted the wcha player of the preseason by the coaches and just wrapped up a fantastic weekend. He did have some injury troubles ladt season. Believe me, not a lot of panthers fans base their opinions of bjugstad on what Brian Skrudland says. They are extremely high on him for good reason, because they know how good he is.

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