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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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Old
10-13-2012, 03:35 PM
  #376
Senacus Maximus
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It depends - I think the census metro population for Oshawa is bigger than Saskatoon b/c it would include Whitby and Clarington.

This puts Oshawa at 356,000 and Saskatoon at 260,000.

In any event, Saskatoon would not be an appropriate place for an NHL team...that's for sure. Neither would Halifax for that matter.

The next team should go to Quebec. After that...it depends. I would like to see one in the GTA or at least SW Ontario. I guess it depends what the Leafs (and maybe Buffalo)...b/c otherwise they may end up in an ugly fight over territory rights...I know before MLSE said a team couldn't come here w/o their permission...and the NHL said one could - so it might not be easy if the Leafs kick up a fuss

Why is the lower mainland never mentioned for another team? ... too small to support 2?
D'oh!

Wasn't thinking about the Oshawa metro. My mistake.

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10-13-2012, 03:37 PM
  #377
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In my experience it's easier to go to Buffalo games from Kitchener than to go to Detroit or even Toronto games. It's a 3 1/2 hour drive to Detroit, next to impossible to find parking in Detroit so it's a lot easier to park in Windsor and take the bus which makes it worse, in Toronto parking is extremely expensive and the highway is just jammed packed unless you leave in the middle of the afternoon, Buffalo takes about 1 1/2 hours and it's a lot easier to find parking. I've went an hour before the game started in Buffalo and found parking.
While the drive and border is what would bother me, parking in Detroit is very easy to find. Between Cobo and the Joe Louis parking structure there is a lot of it. That is before the fact you can park at either Ilitch casinos and take a shuttle to the Joe on game day. I have never heard anyone complain about parking for Wings games. You might want to show up 30 minutes before puck drop but parking should be easy as long as it isn't late January with the Auto show in town.

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10-13-2012, 03:43 PM
  #378
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The problem no one ever seems to bring up about a second team in Toronto is that Toronto is a horrible sports city. The only team they support is the Leafs (maybe their soccer team too, can't say I have ever seen anything about them). They don't support the Raptors, Argos, Jays, Marlies, and their yearly Bills game is horrible. If they only support one team out of all these leagues why would a fanbase worth of people jump ship to some expansion team? They already have a local team they have been cheering for their whole life, will they cheer for someone else because the league asks them to?

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10-13-2012, 04:00 PM
  #379
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The problem no one ever seems to bring up about a second team in Toronto is that Toronto is a horrible sports city. The only team they support is the Leafs (maybe their soccer team too, can't say I have ever seen anything about them). They don't support the Raptors, Argos, Jays, Marlies, and their yearly Bills game is horrible. If they only support one team out of all these leagues why would a fanbase worth of people jump ship to some expansion team? They already have a local team they have been cheering for their whole life, will they cheer for someone else because the league asks them to?
It not a bad point but it NHL hockey not baseball, not football and not basketball that really sell in Canada. Am guessing support for an NHL team won't be a problem. Off course MLSE who own the Marlies and Raptor might feel the pinch. The Blue Jays are safer because both season don't really coexist.

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10-13-2012, 04:03 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
The problem no one ever seems to bring up about a second team in Toronto is that Toronto is a horrible sports city. The only team they support is the Leafs (maybe their soccer team too, can't say I have ever seen anything about them). They don't support the Raptors, Argos, Jays, Marlies, and their yearly Bills game is horrible. If they only support one team out of all these leagues why would a fanbase worth of people jump ship to some expansion team? They already have a local team they have been cheering for their whole life, will they cheer for someone else because the league asks them to?
Toronto is a great NHL city, though. You could literally fold every other team in the city but keep the Leafs and people would be OK.

Add a 2nd NHL team and all the other sports will lose revenues to Toronto2. A second team in Toronto would be as successful as a second NFL team in NY.


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10-13-2012, 04:10 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
The problem no one ever seems to bring up about a second team in Toronto is that Toronto is a horrible sports city. The only team they support is the Leafs (maybe their soccer team too, can't say I have ever seen anything about them). They don't support the Raptors, Argos, Jays, Marlies, and their yearly Bills game is horrible. If they only support one team out of all these leagues why would a fanbase worth of people jump ship to some expansion team? They already have a local team they have been cheering for their whole life, will they cheer for someone else because the league asks them to?
I really don't think you've been to Toronto that much. They support all those teams, it's irrelevant they don't sell out every game.

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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
While the drive and border is what would bother me, parking in Detroit is very easy to find. Between Cobo and the Joe Louis parking structure there is a lot of it. That is before the fact you can park at either Ilitch casinos and take a shuttle to the Joe on game day. I have never heard anyone complain about parking for Wings games. You might want to show up 30 minutes before puck drop but parking should be easy as long as it isn't late January with the Auto show in town.
I don't know the only time I drove there it was a pain in the ass to get across the border then almost impossible to find parking. That was years ago and the first NHL game I went to though, I took the bus over the last few times and that was a lot better

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:06 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
The problem no one ever seems to bring up about a second team in Toronto is that Toronto is a horrible sports city. The only team they support is the Leafs (maybe their soccer team too, can't say I have ever seen anything about them). They don't support the Raptors, Argos, Jays, Marlies, and their yearly Bills game is horrible. If they only support one team out of all these leagues why would a fanbase worth of people jump ship to some expansion team? They already have a local team they have been cheering for their whole life, will they cheer for someone else because the league asks them to?
It's not that Toronto is a horrible sports city as much as it is that it's hard to sustain pro-sports teams (other than hockey) in Canada...you're trying to get people to really care about teams when there aren't any rival teams in the country.

The problem with the Jays is they're a horribly run team. They used to have a ton of fans...back in the early 90s they were one of the league leaders in attendance (I think they actually led the league at least once)...but when you've got a team that hasn't been to the play off in almost 20 years (and isn't run well) then it's hard to fill seats.

It would be interesting to see how another hockey team went over here...there are certainly enough people - but, as you say, it would be competing with an original 6 team which is synonymous with the city.


Last edited by UsernameWasTaken: 10-13-2012 at 10:13 PM. Reason: bad grammar :(
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Old
10-13-2012, 06:10 PM
  #383
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I am not a fan of expansion, regardless of where the team goes.
As far as I am concernef, there are 6 teams too many
i believe there are 24 teams too many

i have an idea lets go back to the ORIGNAL SIX...GO LEAFS GO

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Old
10-13-2012, 06:16 PM
  #384
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No chance in hell Vancouver can support 2 teams, it wasn't that long ago that they weren't supporting one team.

There aren't enough people in BC that can afford hockey tickets. The economy there is weak and it won't support 82 nights of NHL hockey each winter.

false

check the housing market in the lower mainland compared to the rest of the country including the United States

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Old
10-13-2012, 06:29 PM
  #385
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It's not that Toronto is a horrible sports city as much as it is that it's hard to sustain pro-sports teams (other than hockey) in Canada...you're trying to get people to really care about teams when there aren't any rival teams in the country.

The problem with the Jays is its a horribly run team. It used to have a ton of fans...back in the early 90s it was won of the league leaders in attendance (I think it actually led the league at least once)...but when you've got a team that hasn't been to the play off in almost 20 years (and isn't run well) then it's hard to fill seats.

It would be interesting to see how another hockey team went over here...there are certainly enough people - but, as you say, it would be competing with an original 6 team which is synonymous with the city.
Only 4 different teams in MLB have drawn 4 million fans in a season. Toronto did it 3 times and they were the 1st to do it. Go figure, over a hundred years of baseball history in the U S and Toronto was the 1st team to draw over 4 million fans for a season.

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Old
10-13-2012, 07:00 PM
  #386
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Only 4 different teams in MLB have drawn 4 million fans in a season. Toronto did it 3 times and they were the 1st to do it. Go figure, over a hundred years of baseball history in the U S and Toronto was the 1st team to draw over 4 million fans for a season.
Not to downplay this achievement. But there are currently only 4 stadiums in MLB where it would even be possible to reach 4M in a season, and i'm sure that in the almost 150 years of baseball that the number of stadiums capable of 4M have never been more than 5 at any time and for a long, long, long time it would have been zero...

and FWIW the Skydome has reduced the official capacity just below that point.

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10-13-2012, 07:05 PM
  #387
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No chance in hell Vancouver can support 2 teams, it wasn't that long ago that they weren't supporting one team.

There aren't enough people in BC that can afford hockey tickets. The economy there is weak and it won't support 82 nights of NHL hockey each winter.
Typical Albertan. GM Place sells out every game. You're just mad that the Lions are the best.

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Old
10-13-2012, 07:18 PM
  #388
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Hamilton & Quebec City will get NHL. teams within 5 years & Markham (Toronto2) won't because MLSE. just won't allow another NHL. team to take root on right in the middle of there territory not mention a 2nd team in Toronto would take business away from the Raptors & Marlies that are also owned by MLSE. & this so called arena in Markham is far from a done deal & might not get bulit .

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10-13-2012, 07:27 PM
  #389
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Typical Albertan. GM Place sells out every game. You're just mad that the Lions are the best.
There is so much wrong with this post.

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10-13-2012, 07:41 PM
  #390
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i believe there are 24 teams too many

i have an idea lets go back to the ORIGNAL SIX...GO LEAFS GO
They would still miss the playoffs

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10-13-2012, 07:43 PM
  #391
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PLEASE most if not all Toronto residents are in love with the leafs as much as Toronto is in love with themselves .
DISCLAIMER: I am a passionate Leafs fan and I love Toronto -- it is my home and it is a world class city.

However, growing up in Toronto, I was left with the exact opposite impression.

The Leafs are by far the biggest sports franchise in town and the connection between the Leafs and the city is almost sacred -- comparable to the Cowboys and Dallas, the Packers and Green Bay, and the Lakers and LA.

That being said, I felt that the amount of people in the city that passionately hated the Leafs was at least equal to the amount of people that passionately loved the Leafs. Obviously, Toronto attracts people from all over Canada and many of those people have retained their allegiance with their hometown team (as well as their disdain for Toronto teams -- which is rather prevalent across Canada). But beyond that, there are many residents in Toronto who were born there and grew up there but passionately hate the Leafs.

Even when it comes to loving the city itself, I found that city pride was seriously lacking in Toronto. Toronto seems to lack a certain self-confidence, a certain swagger, and doesn't seem to have a proper identity. I mean, perhaps this was rooted in Toronto's history. Toronto was historically referred to as Little York -- a backwater city that tried to emulate New York City. It also had large amounts of migrants from New York City and London, and those migrants obviously regarded Toronto (as it was then, and perhaps even now) as inferior to those cities. The economy was pretty dull in the early stages too. Toronto only surpassed Montreal in the latter half of the 1900s.

Toronto is known to be highly critical as well. The Toronto Film Festival is popular among film critics because they feel that if a film passes muster in Toronto, it will do well in other major film festivals. When it comes to hometown artists, like say Drake, Toronto is usually very reluctant to accept them. Drake struck popularity by touring in the US, and even now his image in the city is nebulous at best. I realize this is just one artist, but I do feel it can be said for many others.

Toronto sometimes has this feeling of... wanting to be something else. I felt Montreal and Vancouver were much more secure in their identity. Montreal feels like a slice of a European city in North America. Vancouver has that Cascadia hipster liberal identity down pat. Toronto is just so massive, so multicultural, so ... it's size is really difficult to comprehend. So it doesn't seem to have a set identity. Some places love hockey, others don't really care. Some places love the Leafs, other places don't. There are basketball neighborhoods just as there are hockey neighborhoods. And you can't even pin it down by ethnicity. You'll find neighborhoods in Brampton that are all about hockey, that celebrate wins out on the streets, families that watch Hockey Night in Punjabi so that their grandparents have some idea of what's going on.

Bah, I'm just rambling now. But I never felt that Torontonians were very proud of their city, and the love for the Leafs is certainly not ubiquitous. Which is rather unfortunate. The city is incredible, and having moved around the last few years, I've grown to really appreciate it's greatness. And the Leafs, despite legitimate gripes, are one of the most storied franchises in sports. Period.


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10-13-2012, 08:01 PM
  #392
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if a team is ever introduced into the Toronto area.....or say markam area etc....


it wont be as a relocation...... it will be as an expansion team...



because then the NHL head office can set an exhorbant price tag that goes straight into their coffers.........

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10-13-2012, 08:05 PM
  #393
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Because it is better to have struggling markets that need revenue sharing instead of highly profitable ones that contribute to it?
There's a difference between thinking that something's a good idea and thinking that it's going to happen. I think a Markham-based team and a Hamilton-based team would be great for the NHL, and that Buffalo and Toronto would both be just fine, but I don't for a second think that we'll see either any time soon and don't think we'll ever see both of them in.

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Even if they were thinking of Seattle, that would be at least 4 years from now. Crap that's another 100 million in Phoenix losses from now.
They'll go to QC if they do relocate, but I wasn't assuming anything.

If that happens, then I'd honestly venture that Seattle would be #1 on the NHL's expansion depth chart and Houston would be able to cobble together a decent enough of an ownership group (with or without Les Alexander) that they'd be their #2 target, for better or worse.

Of course, there are always variables. If Paul Allen expresses interest, then Portland's getting a team, no if's, and's, or but's about it. And if the Leafs drop their opposition, then Markham will probably surprise me and get a team after all. But, looking at it right now, that's how I'm ranking it.... QC and Seattle are the 1-2 punch right now, Houston's the third option if there's a multiyear expansion process, and Portland's the 800 pound gorilla in the room depending on if Allen wants in or not. Things can obviously change, though.

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10-13-2012, 08:16 PM
  #394
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Saskatoon is roughly twice the size of Oshawa... just saying.
Uh, no. As a city, Saskatoon as a city is 1.6x the size of Oshawa. As a CMA, Saskatoon is only 3/4 of the size.

At the end of the day, it is really inconsequential though. The point is that Saskatoon is far too small of a market to host an NHL team and will be for several decades at least.

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10-13-2012, 08:20 PM
  #395
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I hope Markham, Hamilton, Quebec City and Seattle get teams.

Two through expansion, two through relocation.

Then you'd still have Omaha, Portland and Houston available in case a team starts struggling financially and needs to be relocated.

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10-13-2012, 08:27 PM
  #396
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I hope Markham, Hamilton, Quebec City and Seattle get teams.

Two through expansion, two through relocation.

Then you'd still have Omaha, Portland and Houston available in case a team starts struggling financially and needs to be relocated.
No way. Too dinky of a market for the NHL to even remotely consider. Just off the top of my head, I'd venture that Seattle, Portland, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Houston, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Hampton Roads, and Hartford all are above Omaha, and most of them have no chance at landing a team or are decades away from being a legitimate possibility, and that's looking only places in the U.S. And I'm probably forgetting a few decent metro areas, too.

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10-13-2012, 08:35 PM
  #397
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Having 32 teams would be terrible. We already have too many goons in the league. Adding another 50 players to the league would dilute the skill level severely.

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10-13-2012, 08:39 PM
  #398
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Having another team in Canada is a good idea.

Expanding while you still have so many failing markets is not a good idea. At all.

Relocation or GTFO. It makes no sense if teams really are "losing money" by the bucketload.



Besides, Seattle is the NHL's #1 right now. They have to be salivating at that opportunity.

Has this been debunked or discredited yet?

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10-13-2012, 08:39 PM
  #399
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I hope Markham, Hamilton, Quebec City and Seattle get teams.

Two through expansion, two through relocation.

Then you'd still have Omaha, Portland and Houston available in case a team starts struggling financially and needs to be relocated.
All in red would fail!

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10-13-2012, 08:43 PM
  #400
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All in red would fail!
Seriously, go read up on Seattle. I'll wait.

They'd be more successful than San Jose. And they are an untapped market.


Look, I want more Canadian teams too, but some U.S. markets may yet be profitable.

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