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Dominik Hasek retires, what is the legacy?

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Old
10-13-2012, 04:57 PM
  #51
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Yes it is. Like, absolutely.
This guy right here ^ would have you all suggest that the calibre of hockey in the QMJHL (let alone the developmental level of the players involved) is even in the same ballpark as the KHL. Enlightening AND surprising to all, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Compared to the NHL the KHL is a joke.
And the QMJHL compared to the KHL is... ? And the idea NHL legend Patrick Roy, as old as he is, competing with 16-20 year old boys for a goaltending spot on the Remparts... equivalent to Hasek competing with other adult professionals for his spot... ? Laughs are good.

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:01 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I don't want to put words in O_J's mouth here...but his defense is that Hasek didn't hang on too long, he played at a rather high level even into his last days...it's not really about adding to his resume, it's just about the product overall...it was good from 17 years old to 47 years old...there's really no "Messier time" tacked on for puff...

Look at how some others went out...Barrasso, Richter, Vachon, even Belfour who went down swinging on some brutal teams, Grant Fuhr went out in a blaze of sour grapes with Calgary...Hasek left as an All-Star in the second best league in the world...he didn't fade into oblivion like some of these other guys...
Don't worry about that. You got it right on.

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:02 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Misleading statement. By the time Mario was starting to decline and Jagr was entering his prime maybe.
Mario was already 31 when Jagr "caught up" to him.

Jagr at any time in his career does NOT match up to a pre-'94 (Hodgkin's) Mario Lemeiux at any strength.
These are Overpass' numbers (adjusted to 200 ESG/team/season or ~5 ES gpg):

Even strength points since 1967-68
Player ESG ESA ESP
Wayne Gretzky 617 1205 1823
Mark Messier 452 708 1163
Marcel Dionne 478 618 1105
Jaromir Jagr 465 627 1092
Steve Yzerman 440 636 1080
Ron Francis 349 687 1036
Bryan Trottier 344 614 971
Joe Sakic 388 573 961
Mario Lemieux 406 546 954

Even strength assists from 1967-68 to 1986-87 are from Hockey Summary Project boxscore data.

Adjusted even strength points since 1967-68
Player $ESG $ESA $ESP
Wayne Gretzky 597 1190 1787
Jaromir Jagr 584 779 1363
Mark Messier 470 755 1225
Steve Yzerman 473 703 1176
Joe Sakic 469 698 1167

Adjusted even strength points per season
Player $ESP/S
Wayne Gretzky 95
Mario Lemieux 88
Jaromir Jagr 81
Eric Lindros 78
Alex Ovechkin 78
Peter Forsberg 77
Bobby Orr 75
Mike Bossy 71
Phil Esposito 68
Pavel Bure 68

The reason Lemieux is ahead of Jagr on a per season basis is Jagr's first couple and last couple of seasons in the NHL. That's also the reason players with much shorter careers (Ovechkin, Lindros, Forsberg) are close, instead of far behind, on a per season basis.

These are my own numbers (adjusted to 6.0 ES gpg) for the two:

Best ES Point seasons (*lockout season adj. to 82 games)
-------------------------
'96 Jagr 136
'99 Jagr 134
'01 Jagr 124
'89 Lemieux 124
'93 Lemieux 115
'06 Jagr 114
'97 Lemieux 111
'95 Jagr 110*
'98 Jagr 106
'96 Lemieux 104
'00 Jagr 100
'92 Lemieux 96
'97 Jagr 95
'94 Jagr 93
'88 Lemieux 93

Best ES Points/82 games (min. 45 games)
---------------------------------
'93 Lemieux 158
'96 Jagr 136
'99 Jagr 135
'89 Lemieux 134
'00 Jagr 131
'01 Jagr 126
'97 Jagr 123
'92 Lemieux 123
'96 Lemieux 122
'97 Lemieux 120
'90 Lemieux 117
'06 Jagr 114
'98 Jagr 113
'95 Jagr 110
'87 Lemieux 105
'02 Jagr 102

I meant Jagr was comparable to Lemieux at even strength, whether looking at peak or prime... and better on a career basis. Lemieux was significantly better on a per game basis in his best single season, and may have been better if he had remained healthy, but not based on actual ES production for periods of a full season or more.


Last edited by Czech Your Math: 10-13-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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Old
10-13-2012, 05:03 PM
  #54
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Hasek is my #1 goalie of all time.

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Old
10-13-2012, 05:17 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've spent less than two weeks of my life in Canada and yet I think Roy is the best goalie of all time. And apparently I'm some kind of homer from Canada? I'm pretty sure quoipourquoi (who might be even more pro-Roy than I am) is American too.
Yep, American and from Detroit. And probably both more pro-Roy and pro-Hasek than you.

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Old
10-13-2012, 06:13 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Whoa, whoa dude. This isn't about whether or not anything is "noteworthy". It's about whether or not Hasek hung around in pro hockey too long. I submit to you that clearly he didn't.
We usually disagree on Hasek but I agree with you here. Hasek getting lit up in the NHL for years would be "Hanging on too long" perhaps.

If the man wants to keep playing hockey at a lower level that he can do well in after declining, good for him

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Old
10-13-2012, 06:19 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
These are Overpass' numbers (adjusted to 200 ESG/team/season or ~5 ES gpg):

Even strength points since 1967-68
Player ESG ESA ESP
Wayne Gretzky 617 1205 1823
Mark Messier 452 708 1163
Marcel Dionne 478 618 1105
Jaromir Jagr 465 627 1092
Steve Yzerman 440 636 1080
Ron Francis 349 687 1036
Bryan Trottier 344 614 971
Joe Sakic 388 573 961
Mario Lemieux 406 546 954

Even strength assists from 1967-68 to 1986-87 are from Hockey Summary Project boxscore data.

Adjusted even strength points since 1967-68
Player $ESG $ESA $ESP
Wayne Gretzky 597 1190 1787
Jaromir Jagr 584 779 1363
Mark Messier 470 755 1225
Steve Yzerman 473 703 1176
Joe Sakic 469 698 1167

Adjusted even strength points per season
Player $ESP/S
Wayne Gretzky 95
Mario Lemieux 88
Jaromir Jagr 81
Eric Lindros 78
Alex Ovechkin 78
Peter Forsberg 77
Bobby Orr 75
Mike Bossy 71
Phil Esposito 68
Pavel Bure 68

The reason Lemieux is ahead of Jagr on a per season basis is Jagr's first couple and last couple of seasons in the NHL. That's also the reason players with much shorter careers (Ovechkin, Lindros, Forsberg) are close, instead of far behind, on a per season basis.

These are my own numbers (adjusted to 6.0 ES gpg) for the two:

Best ES Point seasons (*lockout season adj. to 82 games)
-------------------------
'96 Jagr 136
'99 Jagr 134
'01 Jagr 124
'89 Lemieux 124
'93 Lemieux 115
'06 Jagr 114
'97 Lemieux 111
'95 Jagr 110*
'98 Jagr 106
'96 Lemieux 104
'00 Jagr 100
'92 Lemieux 96
'97 Jagr 95
'94 Jagr 93
'88 Lemieux 93

Best ES Points/82 games (min. 45 games)
---------------------------------
'93 Lemieux 158
'96 Jagr 136
'99 Jagr 135
'89 Lemieux 134
'00 Jagr 131
'01 Jagr 126
'97 Jagr 123
'92 Lemieux 123
'96 Lemieux 122
'97 Lemieux 120
'90 Lemieux 117
'06 Jagr 114
'98 Jagr 113
'95 Jagr 110
'87 Lemieux 105
'02 Jagr 102

I meant Jagr was comparable to Lemieux at even strength, whether looking at peak or prime... and better on a career basis. Lemieux was significantly better on a per game basis in his best single season, and may have been better if he had remained healthy, but not based on actual ES production for periods of a full season or more.
Is there an estimate for how much adjusted even strength points underrate stars from the 80s? Overpass said the affect isn't as great as overall points, but it's still there

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Old
10-13-2012, 06:42 PM
  #58
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
These are Overpass' numbers (adjusted to 200 ESG/team/season or ~5 ES gpg):

Even strength points since 1967-68
Player ESG ESA ESP
Wayne Gretzky 617 1205 1823
Mark Messier 452 708 1163
Marcel Dionne 478 618 1105
Jaromir Jagr 465 627 1092
Steve Yzerman 440 636 1080
Ron Francis 349 687 1036
Bryan Trottier 344 614 971
Joe Sakic 388 573 961
Mario Lemieux 406 546 954

Even strength assists from 1967-68 to 1986-87 are from Hockey Summary Project boxscore data.

Adjusted even strength points since 1967-68
Player $ESG $ESA $ESP
Wayne Gretzky 597 1190 1787
Jaromir Jagr 584 779 1363
Mark Messier 470 755 1225
Steve Yzerman 473 703 1176
Joe Sakic 469 698 1167

Adjusted even strength points per season
Player $ESP/S
Wayne Gretzky 95
Mario Lemieux 88
Jaromir Jagr 81
Eric Lindros 78
Alex Ovechkin 78
Peter Forsberg 77
Bobby Orr 75
Mike Bossy 71
Phil Esposito 68
Pavel Bure 68

The reason Lemieux is ahead of Jagr on a per season basis is Jagr's first couple and last couple of seasons in the NHL. That's also the reason players with much shorter careers (Ovechkin, Lindros, Forsberg) are close, instead of far behind, on a per season basis.

These are my own numbers (adjusted to 6.0 ES gpg) for the two:

Best ES Point seasons (*lockout season adj. to 82 games)
-------------------------
'96 Jagr 136
'99 Jagr 134
'01 Jagr 124
'89 Lemieux 124
'93 Lemieux 115
'06 Jagr 114
'97 Lemieux 111
'95 Jagr 110*
'98 Jagr 106
'96 Lemieux 104
'00 Jagr 100
'92 Lemieux 96
'97 Jagr 95
'94 Jagr 93
'88 Lemieux 93

Best ES Points/82 games (min. 45 games)
---------------------------------
'93 Lemieux 158
'96 Jagr 136
'99 Jagr 135
'89 Lemieux 134
'00 Jagr 131
'01 Jagr 126
'97 Jagr 123
'92 Lemieux 123
'96 Lemieux 122
'97 Lemieux 120
'90 Lemieux 117
'06 Jagr 114
'98 Jagr 113
'95 Jagr 110
'87 Lemieux 105
'02 Jagr 102

I meant Jagr was comparable to Lemieux at even strength, whether looking at peak or prime... and better on a career basis. Lemieux was significantly better on a per game basis in his best single season, and may have been better if he had remained healthy, but not based on actual ES production for periods of a full season or more.
Too many adjusted numbers being taken at face value for my taste.

Honestly, I don't care what numbers you use or how you present them, I'll never believe that Jagr was more prolific at even strength at any time in his career than Mario was from 88/89 - 92/93 where he averaged 1.31 ESP/game.
Yes, these are the raw totals but after Mario came back, he was clearly not the same player he was yet Jagr, in his prime, is only about the same or slightly ahead of that Mario.

That quite simply just doesn't pass the eye test for me, sorry.
Career, sure. Peak or prime...no and it's a very discernible gap.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-13-2012 at 06:57 PM.
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Old
10-13-2012, 07:58 PM
  #59
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Didn't he play injured through a good part of the '99 regular season and playoffs?
Possibly. That's the thing about human memory - we don't really remember common things like playing mildly injured in the playoffs. We remember the unusual ones, like refusing to come back from injury in the playoffs after being medically cleared, while publicly feuding with the coach.

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Old
10-13-2012, 08:01 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Compared to the NHL the KHL is a joke.
No, the joke is comparing the KHL to the QMJHL in terms of ability level. That is literally obscene. And I've seen a plenty big sample of both to make that claim (as if it's news to anyone that enjoys logic).

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10-14-2012, 08:23 AM
  #61
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Best goalie of all time.

One of the 5 most dominant players of all time in terms of peak performance, alongside Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, and Howe.

He had some warts in terms of peronality traits, but it was utterly freakish how far ahead of the curve he was during the 1990s. Was on another planet from anyone else between 1993 and 1999.

Shame he spent the prime of his career on a junk team that would have been bottom-5 in the league on a consistent basis had they received average goaltending.


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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Yes it is. Like, absolutely.
I'd suggest anyone trying to claim the QMJHL is comparable to the KHL on this board should probably take a break, and learn some stuff, before posting here again.


Last edited by DaveG: 10-14-2012 at 02:20 PM. Reason: unncessary
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10-14-2012, 10:12 AM
  #62
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I think one thing that works in Hasek's favor is that when he was dominating, both Roy and Brodeur were both in their primes and playing for better teams. Yet Hasek basically owned the Vezina trophy for the 1990's.

To me, it's between Roy and Hasek and it always comes down to what is more of an accomplishment: 2 Harts or 3 Conn Smythes? I think for a long time before Hasek, it was inconceivable for a goalie to win a Hart but Hasek was that good, twice. A goalie winning the Conn Smythe isn't really all that rare.

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10-14-2012, 10:28 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by chi777 View Post
A goalie winning the Conn Smythe isn't really all that rare.
Except that anyone winning 3 Conn Smythe's is rare, as in it has only been done by one person and it's only been won twice by 4 other players. You might recognize some of them

Roy 3
Orr 2
Gretzky 2
Lemieux 2
Parent 2

That's some damned heady company right there folks.


Either way, this is very close for me and I go back and forth between Hasek and Roy almost monthly as to who was is the best ever.
Hasek has the highest peak of any goalie but that's about a 5-7 year window, while Roy's playoff accolades and performances are just so far ahead of anyone else's by such a huge margin and that's over about a 17 year window, it's hard to ignore.

All I know in the end is that over about a 5-7 year stretch you had the best goalie and maybe even the best player in the league in Hasek.
However, over a 17 year stretch with Roy, you had about a 75% chance of winning any playoff series and only about a 11% chance of losing in less than 7 games.

And don't even get me started on Roy's absolutely ridiculous playoff overtime record


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10-14-2012, 10:53 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Except that anyone winning 3 Conn Smythe's is rare, as in it has only been done by one person and it's only been won twice by 4 other players. You might recognize some of them

Roy 3
Orr 2
Gretzky 2
Lemieux 2
Parent 2

That's some damned heady company right there folks.


Either way, this is very close for me and I go back and forth between Hasek and Roy almost monthly as to who was is the best ever.
Hasek has the highest peak of any goalie but that's about a 5-7 year window, while Roy's playoff accolades and performances are just so far ahead of anyone else's by such a huge margin and that's over about a 17 year window, it's hard to ignore.
That's kind of why I'm torn. For a goalie to win one Hart, let alone two, is pretty amazing. But to be the all-time leader in Conn Smythes is equally impressive. I still think Hasek is the best when you add in stuff like Nagano and his Vezina's but Roy is the only one who could be considered better than Hasek.

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10-14-2012, 11:12 AM
  #65
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That's kind of why I'm torn. For a goalie to win one Hart, let alone two, is pretty amazing. But to be the all-time leader in Conn Smythes is equally impressive. I still think Hasek is the best when you add in stuff like Nagano and his Vezina's but Roy is the only one who could be considered better than Hasek.
I would totally agree with that.

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10-14-2012, 11:13 AM
  #66
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His legacy will be a goalie who is mentioned as the best of all-time. Personally I still give Roy that distinction. Some might still consider Plante or Sawchuk there as well. Brodeur is slowly making his way into the conversation although I'm not sure he has much left to give.

Hasek had the best peak I think I have ever seen a goalie have. Maybe Bernie Parent has two years as good as him but Parent wasn't a back to back Hart winner either. Hasek had some good competition for the Hart too. In 1997 he beat out Kariya at his best and Mario (still the best player in the world). In 1998 he beats out Jagr. Not to mention 6 Vezina trophies all the while facing the likes of Roy, Belfour, Brodeur and to a lesser extent Joseph.

The only knock on him is that you wish he won one more Cup. That's where Roy takes the cake. Not that Hasek didn't take the Sabres further than they had any business of going, but at the end of the day I still take Roy's resume overall.

Hasek to me just might be remembered as the goalie who could play psychological mind games before the puck even dropped.

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10-14-2012, 11:26 AM
  #67
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Always good reply's Big P!

Imo Hasek will go down as the best regular season goalie of all time.
Some people will argue that all his hardware and International play plus his 2 cups put him at the top.

For me, it's all about playoff performance and winning the Cup. That being said, Roy and a few others will always be ahead of him.

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10-14-2012, 11:43 AM
  #68
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Always good reply's Big P!

Imo Hasek will go down as the best regular season goalie of all time.
Some people will argue that all his hardware and International play plus his 2 cups put him at the top.

For me, it's all about playoff performance and winning the Cup. That being said, Roy and a few others will always be ahead of him.

No one and I mean no one gives any weight to his second Cup.
He got yanked in the 4th game of the first round and Osgood played every single minute for the rest of those playoffs.


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10-14-2012, 11:52 AM
  #69
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No one and I mean no one gives any weight to his second Cup.
Of course, his contribution to the Jennings win and 115 point regular season that gave them top seed and home ice advantage all playoffs that year wasn't exactly insignificant - the Red Wings started every single series of that playoffs with 2 home wins to go up 2-0. The guy put up 20 shutouts in his 40s, let's give him a break about not being THE guy in the playoffs in his last NHL season. If we can refer to Chris Chelios as having 3 Cup rings, then I don't see why an asterisk has to be put next to Dom's second every single time it comes up.

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10-14-2012, 11:58 AM
  #70
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Winning the Cup is exactly why I will always rank Jim Paek above Brian Leetch. Jim can't hear about all them fancy assed numbers with those 2 rings in his ears. Winners persevere.

Sarcasm aside - Hasek's playoff numbers rank with Roy's. His teams didn't.

Lidstrom has twice as many Cups as Orr, for the same reasons, twice as long in the league, and on a perrenial contender.

I actually use Hasek as THE example as to why counting Cups is wrong.

Compare different players, and someone is going to find a way to look past logic, and say one guy 'stepped it up' or 'wanted it more'. Things seem to devolve into scrabbling for things that one of the players was weak in.

But, here we have Hasek - he's the same guy! Except no one, and I mean NO ONE, will try to say he was better post 2000 than pre-2000. Post 2000 Hasek has 2 Cups. Pre-2000 has zero.

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10-14-2012, 11:58 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Of course, his contribution to the Jennings win and 115 point regular season that gave them top seed and home ice advantage all playoffs that year wasn't exactly insignificant - the Red Wings started every single series of that playoffs with 2 home wins to go up 2-0. The guy put up 20 shutouts in his 40s, let's give him a break about not being THE guy in the playoffs in his last NHL season. If we can refer to Chris Chelios as having 3 Cup rings, then I don't see why an asterisk has to be put next to Dom's second every single time it comes up.
I didn't say it didn't count, I SAID it doesn't get any weight.

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10-14-2012, 12:01 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post

Sarcasm aside - Hasek's playoff numbers rank with Roy's.
No they really don't, no one's does and that's actually a fact, not just an opinion.

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10-14-2012, 12:17 PM
  #73
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I'd suggest anyone trying to claim the QMJHL is comparable to the KHL on this board should probably take a break, and learn some stuff, before posting here again. .
It's no more ridiculous than comparing the KHL's talent level to that of the NHL. And if someone responds to my post with sarcasm they can expect sarcasm in return.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-14-2012 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Please don't make it personal, guys
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10-14-2012, 12:20 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil
Sarcasm aside - Hasek's playoff numbers rank with Roy's. His teams didn't.

.
False. Roy easily has the three best playoff runs between the two of them based on save % adjusted for era. He also effectively doubles Hasek in career playoff GVT

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10-14-2012, 12:29 PM
  #75
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Flopping, flailing, ridiculous, nightmarish style that he somehow managed to pull off through ninja magic. His game was as truly inimitable and incomprehensible as his Count Dracula accent that never seemed to thin out despite decades in the states. Just a bizarro player, all around. And yet, one of the best ever. Go figure.

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