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Old
10-14-2012, 06:10 PM
  #351
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Here are some other findings from the CarMD study ( Its database since 1996 includes about 500,000 repair reports):

Luxury brands generally fared worse because of repair frequency, not high costs. Lexus, for instance, rated more poorly than corporate stablemate Toyota. This conflicts with high owner ratings for Lexus in surveys like that from J.D. Power and Associates. The Mercedes-Benz parent company and BMW ranked below the top 10 in this report, though CarMD did not give ranking details beyond the top 10.
No doubt there's different metrics used and some have Lexus on top and others have them elsewhere. For the most part, more have lexus above the average.

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10-14-2012, 06:28 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Great another discussion interrupted by someone who typed something after only reading the last 3 posts of the thread.
Last 3 posts? More like the last 3 pages.

Please feel free to go on deluding yourself that people who buy $60.000+ luxury sedans care about reliability though.

People who spend that kind of money on a car aren't actually buying a car, they are buying feelings. A rational buyer who looks at a car purchase from a strictly economical perspective would never even set his foot at a Mercedes, BMW or Lexus dealer, nevermind even consider buying any of their sports sedans. The depreciation alone makes it an absolutely terrible financial decision, never mind the fact that they all have terrible fuel economy and are expensive to maintain.

Since the buyers are making an entirely emotional decision, there is no true right or wrong, all these cars are very, very good and the manufacturers have spent billions developing them. Whatever you choose is a good choice as long as it feels right for you. Which car that goes fastest around the 'Ring or is the most reliable is ultimately irrelevant.


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10-14-2012, 06:30 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Franck View Post
Last 3 posts? More like the last 3 pages.

Please feel free to go on deluding yourself that people who buy $60.000+ luxury sedans care about reliability though.
Why wouldn't they? To a degree it's not their primary concern but I would certainly hope if I bought something 60k+ I would consider the quality of the car.

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10-14-2012, 07:06 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Why wouldn't they? To a degree it's not their primary concern but I would certainly hope if I bought something 60k+ I would consider the quality of the car.
The edits to my previous post should cover most of this.

I like that you used the word quality though, as it means different things to different people. On one end you have the tangible reliability, on the other you have the perception of quality that is much more difficult to explain.

People who buy a C63 or an M3 are going to feel like they are buying a quality product even if other cars might be more reliable. The millions that the manufacturers have spent on picking plastics with the right "feel" and ensuring that the doors make the right sound when shut guarantee that.

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10-14-2012, 07:16 PM
  #355
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most people are leasing their 3 series, c class and a4 and so on. nobody cares that their turbo will need a routine rebuild ect; new car every 4 years. do oil changes, and don't destroy the body and that's all you have to worry about. and lot need to maintain a status image and keeping up with the jones, so leasing suits them as they want a new car every four years anyway.

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10-14-2012, 07:30 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by e46330ivs View Post
Do you know what your talking about, it is a glorified Toyota, anyone can slap a v8 in any car and call it fast the M3 runs circles on both the c63 and the isf on a racetrack, bmw is in a class of its own when discussing the motorsport aspect of the cars. Dont get me wrong I love the look of the is-f and love the sound of the benz but bmw as the best car all around.

isf 13 sec behind on nurburgring.
c63 is 8 sec behind on nurburgring

and they both have more power then the m3 and if we compared m5 4 door to 4 door - lol. not even close.

QFT.
and BMW are the only homies staying true to the stick. them and porsche, keep it real, and pushing forward with 7 speed manual. nuff said.
of course nothing will ever be as pure and the classics. terrible things i would do to have a clean e30 M3.

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10-14-2012, 08:09 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
BWM 3 Series judged worst car on the market for breakdowns

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/c...able-cars.html


Lexus Leads in Quality, BMW 20th, Hyundai now 10th
http://www.topgear.com/au/car-news/2...ability-survey



Based on JD Power and Associates and Consumer Reports studies, Forbes top 10 most reliable used cars:
5 Toyota Products (including 2 Lexus)
2 Honda products
0 BMW’s

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorze...ble-used-cars/

Based on JD Power and Associates and Consumer Reports studies, Forbes 10 used cars to avoid :
1 BMW
0 Toyota products

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45igdd/bmw-x5/

Edit: Don't want to come off as a dck, even though I didn't like your "clueless" comment. I like BMW I have owned the product, I have also owned a lot of other products of various quality and satisfaction/frustration levels. Horsepower is fun, leading edge electronics are fun, but in the end the mechanics report (even under warranty) is like a dentist check up. There's not always good news coming from it.

My buying policy is limited to a few brands because of great experiences with those products and bad experiences from other products. I buy Lexus/Toyota and Acura/Honda, some people might find that boring especially if they think a GS Lexus is a souped up Toyota and are willing to think that despite Toyota being the most successful automotive company on the planet.
My problem with all of this is what comes out on the other side when comparing subcompact cars incapable of 100 km/hr to cars like BMWs that drivers often explore their potential in. Of course BMWs are going to end up in the shop for clutch/brake/engine problems more often than a Honda Jazz or Kia Picanto... those parts actually exist in BMWs, and get aggressively used by most of their drivers, I'm sure. As for the '08/09 X5... well... no excuse on that one. BMW put together a substandard package there; a rare "consensus disappointment".

Maybe those studies more accurately detail the reliability of subcompact drivers vs BMW drivers; not so much that of their cars (electronics aside, for which there is little blame on the driver, usually). If you stick Mrs. 60-year-old-librarian-who-drives-a-Vitz behind the wheel of a 3 series for her daily 20km commute, does it still end up in the shop for all those things that showed up in the study? I really think BMW drivers brake as much stuff on their vehicles with their driving as could be expected to break from eventual/"natural" failure.

Backing up, I wonder why the 3 series convertible is on the poor reliability list, but not the sedan... hmm... It'd also be interesting to see studies done in terms of percent of original purchase price spent in repairs. 'Cause if you're spending $500 to replace the brakes on your $10K econo car, that certainly has to be seen as worse than spending $1000 to fix the much higher performance brakes on your $40K luxury sedan, for example.

For the record, though, I'm a former 5&7 series owner who got a fully loaded 2-door Accord once I "grew up". Not as happy with it, even though it actually starts every single time, lol (******* crank sensors).


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 10-14-2012 at 08:16 PM.
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10-14-2012, 08:32 PM
  #358
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The edits to my previous post should cover most of this.

I like that you used the word quality though, as it means different things to different people. On one end you have the tangible reliability, on the other you have the perception of quality that is much more difficult to explain.

People who buy a C63 or an M3 are going to feel like they are buying a quality product even if other cars might be more reliable. The millions that the manufacturers have spent on picking plastics with the right "feel" and ensuring that the doors make the right sound when shut guarantee that.
You've put too much weight on emotional purchase. While I agree if you're buying a luxury car it's usually not worth the money even if it has value. The difference however is if you insist on spending 60k+ on a car, you will consider some form of value. Either performance or quality related. It is true that quality has many forms and meanings. Performance is a form of quality and so is reliability. For the sake of this discussion I believe Agnostic and myself are referring to the reliability definition.

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10-14-2012, 08:33 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by HarlemsFinest View Post
most people are leasing their 3 series, c class and a4 and so on. nobody cares that their turbo will need a routine rebuild ect; new car every 4 years. do oil changes, and don't destroy the body and that's all you have to worry about. and lot need to maintain a status image and keeping up with the jones, so leasing suits them as they want a new car every four years anyway.
Valid point, but it does entirely depend on the owner. Many buy used BMWs so quality assurance is still relevant, granted to another customer class.

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10-14-2012, 08:45 PM
  #360
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My problem with all of this is what comes out on the other side when comparing subcompact cars incapable of 100 km/hr to cars like BMWs that drivers often explore their potential in. Of course BMWs are going to end up in the shop for clutch/brake/engine problems more often than a Honda Jazz or Kia Picanto... those parts actually exist in BMWs, and get aggressively used by most of their drivers, I'm sure. As for the '08/09 X5... well... no excuse on that one. BMW put together a substandard package there; a rare "consensus disappointment".

Maybe those studies more accurately detail the reliability of subcompact drivers vs BMW drivers; not so much that of their cars (electronics aside, for which there is little blame on the driver, usually). If you stick Mrs. 60-year-old-librarian-who-drives-a-Vitz behind the wheel of a 3 series for her daily 20km commute, does it still end up in the shop for all those things that showed up in the study? I really think BMW drivers brake as much stuff on their vehicles with their driving as could be expected to break from eventual/"natural" failure.

Backing up, I wonder why the 3 series convertible is on the poor reliability list, but not the sedan... hmm... It'd also be interesting to see studies done in terms of percent of original purchase price spent in repairs. 'Cause if you're spending $500 to replace the brakes on your $10K econo car, that certainly has to be seen as worse than spending $1000 to fix the much higher performance brakes on your $40K luxury sedan, for example.

For the record, though, I'm a former 5&7 series owner who got a fully loaded 2-door Accord once I "grew up". Not as happy with it, even though it actually starts every single time, lol (******* crank sensors).
While I agree those with more power will use the power and as such there will be more repairs necessary I still find a problem with assuming "that's how it is". The perception when you buy a car several times more expensive than the standard is that at peak performance the car should act equivalent or better in terms of reliability than a lower model. For instance, going all out with a Echo vs an M3. You have this perception that based on what it is and what it advertises the M3 at max performance was essentially 'built for this' whereas the Echo was not. Now, in the case of standard performance and regular commute you'd imagine that the luxury vehicle would have better reliability at say 50km/h driving because it has the capacity for so much more. So while the 60 year old librarian's car should last longer given those conditions(assuming they are equal with a lower model car...aka: they are both slow, careful drivers with different vehicle classes) it isn't what is advertised or what you bought. Hearing about X car's 'legendary performance' and 0-60 times but claiming "wait a minute, don't try doing what we advertised" is kind of crap is it not?

Again, depends the metrics. A good point as (repair cost)/(initial cost) is a better metric for relative maintenance it also has flaws. For instance, if I purchase a car(or item in general) with tremendous value that is worth 40k but the retailer sells it for 30k and someone else buys another car worth 40k. If we pay the exact same in maintenance and repairs the ratio works in other guy's favour because he paid more to begin with and the relative maintenance will be lower. Seems a little unfair.

You grew up and bought a coupe? Which year anyway? I have 2009 accord coupe.

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10-14-2012, 08:53 PM
  #361
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I'm buying my first car this week, it's a 2007 Toyota Corolla Sedan with 60,000 km on the odometer.

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10-14-2012, 08:54 PM
  #362
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I'm buying my first car this week, it's a 2007 Toyota Corolla Sedan with 60,000 km on the odometer.
Private or dealer?

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10-14-2012, 09:04 PM
  #363
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The perception when you buy a car several times more expensive than the standard is that at peak performance the car should act equivalent or better in terms of reliability than a lower model.
Wow, no, I think you've got it wrong here. People spending that much more money are buying into a notion of quality and comfort, and reliability is a word for those who can't afford yearly retreats to the Bahamas because of car-related expenditures.

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10-14-2012, 09:04 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
For the record, though, I'm a former 5&7 series owner who got a fully loaded 2-door Accord once I "grew up". Not as happy with it, even though it actually starts every single time, lol (******* crank sensors).
I was a former 3 series owner who bought a new Civic when I grew up.

I liked the Civic for driving, it wasn't as good as the BMW, except in the winter, where I didn't like the BMW. Rear wheel drive isn't as good as front wheel drive in the winter except the old beetles, they were great.

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10-14-2012, 09:11 PM
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BMW as a 7 year rotation for all there models, I would never purchase within 2-3 years of production, BMW dont break down needing tow ins, they have random engine lights emission issues. The difference is bmw fixes all their issues along the way and a last year production model is near bulletproof. I buy bmw's cause out of the box and not wanting to modify vehicles they are the best, are they the fastest no, are they the most reliable no, but thats not the point, no other car gives you the same feeling.

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10-14-2012, 09:14 PM
  #366
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You grew up and bought a coupe? Which year anyway? I have 2009 accord coupe.
Hahaha, I never thought about it that way, lol. There's actually a lot of room in those back seats, but yeah... I mean I don't test every corner to see what speeds I can hit before the tires start chirping anymore, and I don't aggressively try to minimize the time between standstill and cruising speed, etc. Heated/leather/power seats and a power moon roof are good enough to keep me comfortable, and the thing goes quickly enough, I guess. Mine's a gun metal grey 2004 with the good spoiler on the back. Man Accords look so different (in a bad way) without a spoiler.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 10-14-2012 at 09:22 PM.
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10-14-2012, 09:18 PM
  #367
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Private or dealer?
Dealer, Canberra Toyota.

http://www.canberratoyota.com.au/

I hope I can go four years with no problem, that's the duration of my contract here.

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10-14-2012, 09:19 PM
  #368
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I was a former 3 series owner who bought a new Civic when I grew up.

I liked the Civic for driving, it wasn't as good as the BMW, except in the winter, where I didn't like the BMW. Rear wheel drive isn't as good as front wheel drive in the winter except the old beetles, they were great.
Hahaha, oh, yeah... that. I had to stud all 4 corners of my 7 series, otherwise I never would have gotten out of my driveway, lol. I still love being able to adjust drift angle with throttle though, especially in the snow. Not crazy Tokyo drifts (that was 5 series stuff, not the 7... although I tried once and snapped bolts on my driveshaft's centre bearing, lol), but when the car starts doing that snowplow slide toward the curb, it's nice to be able to touch the pedal and use the rear end to get pointed in the right direction.

The Accord though, with just Altimax tires from Canadian Tire, handles snow with absolutely no problems.

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10-14-2012, 09:21 PM
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BMW as a 7 year rotation for all there models, I would never purchase within 2-3 years of production, BMW dont break down needing tow ins, they have random engine lights emission issues. The difference is bmw fixes all their issues along the way and a last year production model is near bulletproof. I buy bmw's cause out of the box and not wanting to modify vehicles they are the best, are they the fastest no, are they the most reliable no, but thats not the point, no other car gives you the same feeling.

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10-14-2012, 11:34 PM
  #370
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Wow, no, I think you've got it wrong here. People spending that much more money are buying into a notion of quality and comfort, and reliability is a word for those who can't afford yearly retreats to the Bahamas because of car-related expenditures.
Perhaps, but my logic is based on giving people what they pay for and delivering. The fact superior quality isn't part of the tag on a luxury vehicle seems more of a scam to me than an acceptable standard.

If it counts for anything I have relatives who could afford expensive cars but flat out refuse to entertain the idea because they believe the more gadgets a car has, the more likely you'll encounter a problem and more you'll pay for repairs. I assure you, this isn't them not being able to afford it, they REALLY can and still don't. It would not break their bank either, they just refuse. Maybe I should listen to them because it is somewhat true, the notion of quality is so vague people like to misuse it.

I have no hesitation getting a Lexus over a BMW but to be fair I have no problems getting a BMW over a Lexus either. I'd see which model is the best fit then I'd look down the reliability scale to see if there's a big enough margin to reconsider my choice. Essentially, I'd consder realiability for sure, unless I had more money than I could use(aka lottery winnings) but reliability may or may not change my choice as it would not be the primary goal. You do want a car based on comfort, looks, performance but to say reliability doesn't come with the price tag? Meh. I remember driving my dad's Pontiac Sunfire. What a piece of crap, we had to change breaks like 5 times in a year. I didn't really do much with it, it wouldn't let me if I tried. When I got my accord coupe I push it 10 times more than I did with the sunfire. The difference is I've never had to go to the dealer or a garage for failures/replacements ever, like EVER. Call me crazy but relative to many cars I've driven in my life(i dont own 100k cars, lets be clear on that) I've felt better performance, comfort and reliability with my car and based on the reviews and research I did prior to my purchase the reliability(which I actually looked at) came through.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hahaha, I never thought about it that way, lol. There's actually a lot of room in those back seats, but yeah... I mean I don't test every corner to see what speeds I can hit before the tires start chirping anymore, and I don't aggressively try to minimize the time between standstill and cruising speed, etc. Heated/leather/power seats and a power moon roof are good enough to keep me comfortable, and the thing goes quickly enough, I guess. Mine's a gun metal grey 2004 with the good spoiler on the back. Man Accords look so different (in a bad way) without a spoiler.
Yah, I see mine without the spoilers, feels weird. I didn't buy it with the spoiler though, I got a demo and it was like that. Kinda glad it came that way.

You have a lot of room in yours? I'm 6'4, my head skins the ceiling on the driver's side when I electronically lower my seat In the back? Forget it.

I think we have essentially same comfort options but different year. EX-L type. Sunroof, leather, heated seats.

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10-14-2012, 11:36 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by e46330ivs View Post
BMW as a 7 year rotation for all there models, I would never purchase within 2-3 years of production, BMW dont break down needing tow ins, they have random engine lights emission issues. The difference is bmw fixes all their issues along the way and a last year production model is near bulletproof. I buy bmw's cause out of the box and not wanting to modify vehicles they are the best, are they the fastest no, are they the most reliable no, but thats not the point, no other car gives you the same feeling.
I guess depends your focus. I'm becoming an Industrial Engineer and after class after class of quality control and reliability, it starts to mean something.

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10-14-2012, 11:38 PM
  #372
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Dealer, Canberra Toyota.

http://www.canberratoyota.com.au/

I hope I can go four years with no problem, that's the duration of my contract here.
Quickly glanced the website but is there a certified used feature? I know a lot of companies offer extended warranties as if it were a brand new car. I didn't see it there.

Either way, it's a reliable car. I think you'll be just fine.

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10-15-2012, 01:38 AM
  #373
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I leased a Mazda 3 hatchback in July...absolutely love it!

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10-15-2012, 02:39 AM
  #374
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Perhaps, but my logic is based on giving people what they pay for and delivering. The fact superior quality isn't part of the tag on a luxury vehicle seems more of a scam to me than an acceptable standard.
There are a whole lot more things that could go wrong in a top-of-the-line BMW or Mercedes than in your no-frills Kia or Honda.

Their customers demand that their cars offer levels of performance, luxury and technology that push the technological boundaries of its day, it is quite natural that they will be less reliable and cost more to maintain than cheaper cars that stick to cheap and proven technology.

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10-15-2012, 02:58 AM
  #375
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Quickly glanced the website but is there a certified used feature? I know a lot of companies offer extended warranties as if it were a brand new car. I didn't see it there.

Either way, it's a reliable car. I think you'll be just fine.
3 months full warranty and then manufacturer warranty up to 175,000 km, and it's currently at 60,000 km.

No extended warranties.

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