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Gilmour or Francis?

View Poll Results: Overall who was better
Dougy 48 54.55%
Ronny franchise 40 45.45%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-14-2012, 11:55 PM
  #1
Puckgenius*
 
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Gilmour or Francis?

Who was better in their prime?
Who had the better career?
Who was better offensively?
Who as better defensively?

both PPG 2 way centres who were known as great leaders.

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Old
10-15-2012, 12:03 AM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
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Gilmour was much better in their respective primes
Career is close, depends how much you value Francis' freakish longevity as a top player
Offensively - again, Gilmour was easily better at his peak but his peak was relatively short and Francis' "peak" was bascially his whole career
Defensively - I think they were pretty close

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10-15-2012, 12:14 AM
  #3
Skobel24
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Francis, but it's close.

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10-15-2012, 12:34 AM
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Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gilmour was much better in their respective primes
Career is close, depends how much you value Francis' freakish longevity as a top player
Offensively - again, Gilmour was easily better at his peak but his peak was relatively short and Francis' "peak" was bascially his whole career
Defensively - I think they were pretty close
This is how I feel about it as well.

Consistency is what every player strives for and the top level that Francis played at for such a long time is what tips the balance in favor over Gilmour.

It will be very interesting to see how both guys do in the top 50 centers project when we get to it.

Both guys should be on it quite easily and perhaps even locks for the upper half of 50.

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Old
10-15-2012, 09:04 AM
  #5
seventieslord
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Definitely Gilmour. 3 times top-5 for the Hart to zero. Incredible playoff scorer.

Francis' best years were 1994-1998 when he was with Jagr, but I find it hard to believe any GM would want him over Gilmour in that timeframe if he was going into battle.

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10-15-2012, 09:40 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckgenius View Post
Who was better in their prime?
Gilmour, handily.

Quote:
Who had the better career?
This one I could flip a coin on. One has a higher peak, one has more longevity.. both have team success and individual recognition.

Quote:
Who was better offensively?
At his best, Gilmour.

Quote:
Who as better defensively?
Pretty close in this department.

Quote:
both PPG 2 way centres who were known as great leaders.
I'm usually the guy defending Francis from being a product of Jagr when he was a great player in his own right.

You can't go wrong with either Francis or Gilmour but if I had to pick one I'd pick Gilmour. Anyone who saw him at his best saw something special.

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Old
10-15-2012, 12:33 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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i'm not usually one to attribute a player's success to his teammates, and i don't want to say francis was a leech because he was very good (but less than truly great) before and after jagr and sometimes mario. but if you look at francis' career, it's pretty clear that his peak numbers and finishes were aided by his teammates. it's a rare case where i think we can safely say that the guy wouldn't have been a top 5 scorer without his near generational linemate.

gilmour, on the other hand, was absolutely great at his best. defense is a wash, but on the leafs, gilmour was basically a forward version of chelios. he played ridiculous double-shift minutes in every situation and impacted every facet of what his team did. i don't think francis could have simultaneously been his team's first and third line center, on top of being the man on the PP and PK. it sounds weird to value that peak ability over 400 extra points, but i do.

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10-15-2012, 12:43 PM
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Gilmour. Francis has edge in longevity, but not enough for me. Gilmour was everything what you want from a center, total packcage and for a very brief moment he could be argued as a TOP3 player in the game. He has some accolades which Francis could dream of.

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10-15-2012, 02:03 PM
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They're very close, IMHO, but if I could only pick one for my team, it would be Gilmour, in a heartbeat.

Now, maybe I saw more of him than Francis, but the joke about how "nobody could ever give 110% because, by definition 100% is the most you can give", did not apply to Gilmour.

Although I was never much of a Leafs fan (or a fan of them, at all), watching Gilmour play in the '93 (and to a slightly lesser extent, '94) playoffs was like seeing a man possessed. I honestly think that he took some years off his life playing the way he did. I never saw Francis take it to quite that level.

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10-15-2012, 02:20 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm not usually one to attribute a player's success to his teammates, and i don't want to say francis was a leech because he was very good (but less than truly great) before and after jagr and sometimes mario. but if you look at francis' career, it's pretty clear that his peak numbers and finishes were aided by his teammates. it's a rare case where i think we can safely say that the guy wouldn't have been a top 5 scorer without his near generational linemate.

gilmour, on the other hand, was absolutely great at his best. defense is a wash, but on the leafs, gilmour was basically a forward version of chelios. he played ridiculous double-shift minutes in every situation and impacted every facet of what his team did. i don't think francis could have simultaneously been his team's first and third line center, on top of being the man on the PP and PK. it sounds weird to value that peak ability over 400 extra points, but i do.
This post is what I was thinking almost word for word.

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Old
10-15-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
on the leafs, gilmour was basically a forward version of chelios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe View Post
I honestly think that he took some years off his life playing the way he did.
These are both great statements.

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Old
10-15-2012, 03:35 PM
  #12
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I voted for Gilmour because along with Wendel Clark he was a leader of the Maple Leafs teams of the 1990's and his numbers show it, where as Francis was still #3 behind Lemieux and Jagr in Pittsburgh.

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10-15-2012, 04:21 PM
  #13
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Francis.

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10-15-2012, 05:34 PM
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Both where great players but the answer here is Doug Gilmour, close though.

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10-15-2012, 06:12 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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At their peak, Gilmour was better.

But, some Top Ten numbers:

Goals, Gilmour came in 10th once. Francis never cracked the top ten.

Assists, Gilmour 5 times. Francis 12 times, with two 1st place finishes.

Points, Gilmour 3 times. Francis 5 times. Neither had a top 3 finish.

Very close, but I took Francis.

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10-15-2012, 06:38 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
At their peak, Gilmour was better.

But, some Top Ten numbers:

Goals, Gilmour came in 10th once. Francis never cracked the top ten.

Assists, Gilmour 5 times. Francis 12 times, with two 1st place finishes.

Points, Gilmour 3 times. Francis 5 times. Neither had a top 3 finish.

Very close, but I took Francis.
and without having Jagr as a linemate?

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10-15-2012, 08:11 PM
  #17
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Francis all the way

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10-16-2012, 09:36 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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and without having Jagr as a linemate?
In Jagr's first 5 years in the NHL (when the Pens were actual contenders and won 2 Cups) Francis outscored Jagr 4 out of 5 years in playoffs, including both Cup years.

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10-16-2012, 09:40 PM
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In Jagr's first 5 years in the NHL (when the Pens were actual contenders and won 2 Cups) Francis outscored Jagr 4 out of 5 years in playoffs, including both Cup years.
FACT checking owned. Good job in defending your choice. I think Francis was an all around better player IMO. What was his weakness again because I don't remember one?

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10-16-2012, 09:54 PM
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FACT checking owned. Good job in defending your choice. I think Francis was an all around better player IMO. What was his weakness again because I don't remember one?
His main weakness was that he was never a prolific goal scorer. He was also a slow skater for a scoring line player.

His regular season scoring "peak" also just happened to start at the age of 30 and coincide exactly with linemate Jagr's Art Ross years.

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10-16-2012, 10:49 PM
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FACT checking owned. Good job in defending your choice. I think Francis was an all around better player IMO. What was his weakness again because I don't remember one?
Yep. Because certain media people had a love with "good old Dougie Gilmour" and certain media outlets showed Gilmour everytime he sneezed. this could lead some people not to realize how good francis was. If I was a coach and had to pick one to go over the bench when the game was on the line--I pick Ronny

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10-16-2012, 11:04 PM
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Hardyvan123
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After playing with Jagr, Francis was still good enough to play 20 plus minutes per game from age 35-39 (99-03) putting him 26th in scoring over that time which is remarkable given his 2 way game.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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10-16-2012, 11:06 PM
  #23
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After playing with Jagr, Francis was still good enough to play 20 plus minutes per game from age 35-39 (99-03) putting him 26th in scoring over that time which is remarkable given his 2 way game.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
I don't think anybody doubted Francis' longevity as a productive / borderline-elite player

In my opinion, Francis' 2001-02 season at the age of 38 is the most impressive in his career.

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10-17-2012, 01:25 AM
  #24
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I think I'd pick Gilmour for my team over Francis, but I can see all kinds of arguments for Ronny Franchise.

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10-17-2012, 05:22 AM
  #25
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I still think Francis' peak gets underrated by many here. Unlike the main board, most people here seem to take for granted that linemates don't generally affect star players point totals by much, yet Francis gets repeatedly punished for playing with Jagr. The fact that his point totals raised at a later age is always brought up as proof, but it's not that unreasonable for a non-physical playmaker to peak in his late 20s to early 30s. Some of his best comparables are guys like Oates, Ratelle, and Henrik Sedin, all of whom peaked at a similar time. Hell, even Gilmour's production hit a spike at 29 and 30.

That said, he was obviously never as good as Gilmour was in those two years, and the rest of their careers were fairly similar, with a bit of an edge to Francis. I think I would give it to Gilmour because of his peak, and the fact that if Gilmour was the man on a team like Francis was from a young age, I wonder if he could have been closer to his Toronto years at an earlier age.

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