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Better hockey major junior vs CIS

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09-29-2012, 12:29 PM
  #1
thook
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Better hockey major junior vs CIS

I'm a big CIS hockey fan and have had season tickets for the Lu thundrwolves for years now. Recentlya friend and i have been debating what is better hockey, CIS or Major Junior. I would love to hear you arguments as to which is better and your reason for choosing!

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09-29-2012, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thook View Post
I'm a big CIS hockey fan and have had season tickets for the Lu thundrwolves for years now. Recentlya friend and i have been debating what is better hockey, CIS or Major Junior. I would love to hear you arguments as to which is better and your reason for choosing!
Depends what is meant by "better". CIS teams would win 80% of time against major junior. Or more. But major junior has more NHL draft choices.

The same can be said of AAA midget vs Junior A. More AAA midgets would make the NHL but seldom would they beat a Junior A team.

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09-29-2012, 06:59 PM
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Ok to clarify if you took all the teams and made one league who would Win? If you took the teams as they are now and put them head to head.

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10-01-2012, 06:37 AM
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To add to what Hollywood said:

UofA, Sask or Man would win over Oil Kings, Blades or Wheaties.

UNB, UdeM, UPEI or Acadia would beat Seadogs, Wildcats, Rocket or Mooseheads.

UWO over Knights, UQTR, Windsor, LU, Carleton would win over most OHL team.


I know I'm missing some, but you get my drift. Because CIS teams are older, bigger and have 20 "top" players as opposed to an CHL team with a handful of 16-18 year olds; the CIS should win a majority of games.

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10-01-2012, 04:29 PM
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Does anyone know how many former CHL Captains are on the UNB roster this year? I'd guess anywhere from 10 to 16.

I am pretty certain that AUS and CIS teams try to recruit former Captains and "The Top 20 year old" from the CHL teams as often as possible.

The depth of these older quality players would give most CIS teams an overall distinct advantage against CHL teams.

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10-02-2012, 03:15 PM
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It would be a bloody massacre. CIS teams would tear major junior teams apart.

As someone else said, more top end, NHL bound talent in junior; but overall, CIS teams are older, faster, stronger and just much better.

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10-02-2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by novak View Post
It would be a bloody massacre. CIS teams would tear major junior teams apart.

As someone else said, more top end, NHL bound talent in junior; but overall, CIS teams are older, faster, stronger and just much better.
A bunch of 23/24 year olds layin' a whuppin' on a bunch of 17/18 year olds. I would sure hope that the CIS would dominate. Different story though when 23/24 year old NHL/AHLers play 23/24 year old CIS players.

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10-02-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by novak View Post
It would be a bloody massacre. CIS teams would tear major junior teams apart.

As someone else said, more top end, NHL bound talent in junior; but overall, CIS teams are older, faster, stronger and just much better.
I fully agree. Unfortunately most Major Junior fans won't give the CIS the time of day.

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10-03-2012, 06:07 AM
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Novak, I wouldn't say that every CIS team would "tear major junior teams apart". There are some CIS teams that would have a difficult time against a lot of CHL teams. Overall the better CIS teams should be expected to win 75-80 % of the time.

Rob, the average CHL fan thinks that CIS players are "has-beens" because they are not Pro players nor do they have much chance of being one. (I know there are exceptions, but the majority of CIS players do not go to the NHL). Every player on a CHL team has the chance to become an NHL-er, but few do make it either.

I think Junior hockey is an "event" rather than a game. A lot of people go to see and be seen. Also, lots are dragged there by their kids. If a CHL fan comes to a CIS game, they are disappointed by the lack of hype, fighting, Jumbotron and the chance to see a future star.

While both are hockey games, the CHL has a lot that CIS doesn't. I would be willing to bet that if Freddie got a QMJHL team, the attendance at UNB games would drop-off considerably.

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10-11-2012, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by novak View Post
It would be a bloody massacre. CIS teams would tear major junior teams apart.

As someone else said, more top end, NHL bound talent in junior; but overall, CIS teams are older, faster, stronger and just much better.
In my area of the country Canadian College teams usually get beat by American college teams who are mostly doing it with Junior A tier two players, since they can't recruit Major junior players. That being said it is unlikely that many Canadian Colleges would be beating Major junior teams on a regular basis.

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10-11-2012, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Colts Fan View Post
In my area of the country Canadian College teams usually get beat by American college teams who are mostly doing it with Junior A tier two players, since they can't recruit Major junior players. That being said it is unlikely that many Canadian Colleges would be beating Major junior teams on a regular basis.
Well, the OUA for the most part is the weak sister of the CIS (certainly the bottom half teams) ...

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10-11-2012, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Colts Fan View Post
In my area of the country Canadian College teams usually get beat by American college teams who are mostly doing it with Junior A tier two players, since they can't recruit Major junior players. That being said it is unlikely that many Canadian Colleges would be beating Major junior teams on a regular basis.
You have to remember that many players play Junior A instead of Major Junior so as to maintain NCAA eligibility. So when those games are played Junior A grads (NCAA team) are beating Major Junior grads (CIS team).

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10-11-2012, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FreddtFoyle View Post
Well, the OUA for the most part is the weak sister of the CIS (certainly the bottom half teams) ...
Blah blah same thing every year! Oua had more parody last year than ever! Anyone was winning on any given night! Remind me of the two teams in the ucup final last year last year!?!?!

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10-11-2012, 04:51 PM
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Blah blah same thing every year! Oua had more parody last year than ever! Anyone was winning on any given night! Remind me of the two teams in the ucup final last year last year!?!?!
Just ignore the Squirrel condescension. Question for you...you are a T-Bay person, was Belliveau ran out of T-Bay and if so what for?

I did not personally know Pete like Rantfather or the media guys but if I remember correctly, when he left anywheres it was usually in a blaze of glory, sort to speak. Yes?

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10-11-2012, 05:41 PM
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Blah blah same thing every year! Oua had more parody last year than ever! Anyone was winning on any given night! Remind me of the two teams in the ucup final last year last year!?!?!
Don't get your knickers in a wad. The OAU top-to-bottom parity has to get better yet before it matches AUS and Canada West. Yes, Western upset UNB last year and therefore it was a rare all-OUA final in the University Cup. Can't deny that. But it is the first time in nine years that an OUA team is the reigning national champion (after Alberta and three different AUS teams). Win a few more and it will be hard(er) to call the very large OUA conference a weak sister.

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10-11-2012, 06:19 PM
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Ooops!

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilcoxHound View Post
A bunch of 23/24 year olds layin' a whuppin' on a bunch of 17/18 year olds. I would sure hope that the CIS would dominate. Different story though when 23/24 year old NHL/AHLers play 23/24 year old CIS players.
Like Portland Pirates 2 1 win in OT over UNB

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10-11-2012, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by FreddtFoyle View Post
Don't get your knickers in a wad. The OAU top-to-bottom parity has to get better yet before it matches AUS and Canada West. Yes, Western upset UNB last year and therefore it was a rare all-OUA final in the University Cup. Can't deny that. But it is the first time in nine years that an OUA team is the reigning national champion (after Alberta and three different AUS teams). Win a few more and it will be hard(er) to call the very large OUA conference a weak sister.
I understand where you are coming from. But if you take the top 4 oua teams from each conference and made and 8 team league it would be more than competitive. All I am saying is just because the oua has some week teams, don't discredit the other teams who should be getting more respect than they do on these boards.

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10-12-2012, 06:57 AM
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"Question for you...you are a T-Bay person, was Belliveau ran out of T-Bay and if so what for? "

My 2 cents on this:

If I recall, LU had a pretty good player named Peter Cava. He was not always in Pete's good books and Pete was hard on him about conditioning and other things, as he was to the whole team. Cava's father was a bigwig on the board that runs the Hockey program. Pete had a series of 1 year contracts with LU and was not re-newed.

That could be part of the reason or non of it.

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10-12-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by thook View Post
I understand where you are coming from. But if you take the top 4 oua teams from each conference and made and 8 team league it would be more than competitive. All I am saying is just because the oua has some week teams, don't discredit the other teams who should be getting more respect than they do on these boards.
I agree that the top teams in the OUA are nationally competitive. But because it is such a big conference with several weak teams at the bottom, the OUA does not have the "parity" of the AUS and Canada West. That's an unfortunate fact. I also agree that the top OUA teams should get more respect, but it is hard to get a handle on their competitiveness when they have so more many opportunities to pad their offensive stats against weaker teams than the top AUS and Canada West teams. The good news for OUA fans may be that it appears at times that AUS and Canada West underestimate OUA teams at the University Cup.

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10-12-2012, 03:58 PM
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You could be right

Quote:
Originally Posted by AUS Fan View Post
"Question for you...you are a T-Bay person, was Belliveau ran out of T-Bay and if so what for? "

My 2 cents on this:

If I recall, LU had a pretty good player named Peter Cava. He was not always in Pete's good books and Pete was hard on him about conditioning and other things, as he was to the whole team. Cava's father was a bigwig on the board that runs the Hockey program. Pete had a series of 1 year contracts with LU and was not re-newed.

That could be part of the reason or non of it.
BUT I do know that he came very,very close at a Nationals final one year?????
There was a hit post??? And a poor officials call????

My memory has failed me BUT I DO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN CLOSER SINCE HIS DEPARTURE ....he is a demanding leader and so.he should be.


Last edited by rantfather: 10-12-2012 at 04:03 PM. Reason: Spelling.
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10-12-2012, 04:48 PM
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BUT I do know that he came very,very close at a Nationals final one year?????
There was a hit post??? And a poor officials call????

My memory has failed me BUT I DO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN CLOSER SINCE HIS DEPARTURE ....he is a demanding leader and so.he should be.
Your right Lu took Alberta to task with Pete behind the bench. It was a one goal game and Lu was putting on the pressure when the ref made a horrible call that put Lu down for the rest of the game. Alberta ended up winning. ( Alberta was the better team) Pete is the man that made the Lu program what it is today. Sherban is now the head coach and was also Pete's first recruit and captain for the program at Lu. Pete is the kind of guy that can get a lot out of his team for a couple years but then they grow sick of the pit bull mentality. There was lots of rumours the last few years he as behind Lu's bench. Overall he did great. The last couple years were tough because the players didn't buy in. He was hard on guys, that's just his style.

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10-14-2012, 08:02 PM
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Just looked at the results of Games between US college teams (Tier 2 players ) and CIS teams for the weekend of October 5 - 8. The US was 26-6-5 against teams from all CIS divisions. Atlantic won 3 games, Acadia, St Francis Xavier and St Thomas. Ontario won 2 games, Ottawa U and Carleton. West won 1 game, BC. It looks like CIS might want to reconsider taking on the Barrie Colts for the time being.

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10-14-2012, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Colts Fan View Post
Just looked at the results of Games between US college teams (Tier 2 players ) and CIS teams for the weekend of October 5 - 8. The US was 26-6-5 against teams from all CIS divisions. Atlantic won 3 games, Acadia, St Francis Xavier and St Thomas. Ontario won 2 games, Ottawa U and Carleton. West won 1 game, BC. It looks like CIS might want to reconsider taking on the Barrie Colts for the time being.

you guys think in the box only. First the best NCAA teams are made up of mostly USHL playes. USHL is just as good as CHL teams. Ask the subury wolves. Second many tear 2 players are more than good enough to play major junior but want to play ncaa instead. Third CIS and NCAA are up to 8-9 years older than major junior teams.

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10-14-2012, 09:22 PM
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you guys think in the box only. First the best NCAA teams are made up of mostly USHL playes. USHL is just as good as CHL teams. Ask the subury wolves. Second many tear 2 players are more than good enough to play major junior but want to play ncaa instead. Third CIS and NCAA are up to 8-9 years older than major junior teams.
Agree Many USHL players are Major Junior Caliber so I guess Major Junior players are still beating CIS players. I thought the original premiss was that CIS Schools would beat Major Junior. There comes a point where talented 18 and 19 year olds beat less talented 22 and 23 yr olds. This is not minor hockey where and atom team would get butt kicked by a bunch of Pee Wees. Some of these 18 and 19 year olds like Hall, Eberle, Nugent Hopkins and Tyler Seguin. On a player by player basis, these guys are so much more talented than the CIS guys who have been through the system and found wanting. They are now playing out the string. With some exceptions of course. I have seen some very good CIS players who see no future at the pro level and are opting to take their College package from their junior club. More should probably do this so that we would have less hockey bums hanging on in the minor leagues.

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10-15-2012, 12:13 AM
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Agree Many USHL players are Major Junior Caliber so I guess Major Junior players are still beating CIS players. I thought the original premiss was that CIS Schools would beat Major Junior. There comes a point where talented 18 and 19 year olds beat less talented 22 and 23 yr olds. This is not minor hockey where and atom team would get butt kicked by a bunch of Pee Wees. Some of these 18 and 19 year olds like Hall, Eberle, Nugent Hopkins and Tyler Seguin. On a player by player basis, these guys are so much more talented than the CIS guys who have been through the system and found wanting. They are now playing out the string. With some exceptions of course. I have seen some very good CIS players who see no future at the pro level and are opting to take their College package from their junior club. More should probably do this so that we would have less hockey bums hanging on in the minor leagues.
You miss the point, Colts Fan.

The good CIS teams are predominantly comprised of major junior grads. There are also some players who did their "overage" year in Junior A before going to university.

While NCAA teams recruit heavily from the USHL, they also recruit heavily from Junior A. Many players decline major junior offers and choose instead Junior A in order to preserve their NCAA eligibility.

Accordingly, Junior A players are not necessarily of a lower calibre than all major junior players. It is NOT like comparing the AHL to the NHL, where the players in the AHL all want to be in the NHL but got cut.

You bring up the upper echelon of major junior players. But those guys are spread amongst 60+ teams. This means that only roughly one out of three teams has a Team Canada-calibre player. Very seldom does a major junior team have more then 1 or 2 future NHL-calibre players. You might be interested to know that Team Canada (Juniors) has roughly a .500 record against CIS teams. One year they played a Calgary/Lethbridge combo and one year a Regina/Saskatchewan combo. The games were just after exams, and in fact some players declined the game due to exams. The CIS team had no practices and introduced themselves to one another in the locker room. The Manitoba Bisons split a pair of games against Team Canada in 2004. The AUS guys on here could tell you about the year they told the AUS players not to hit the junior players so hard for fear of injury.

How would an average major junior team do against Team Canada? And how well would they do after taking off two weeks for exams?

Major junior teams don't play CIS teams any more because it would kill their marketing. The last time there was a game the Alberta Golden Bears crushed the Edmonton Oil Kings 9-1 (or something like that).

Major junior teams have probably one future NHL player, a few future minor leaguers or Euro-pros, and a few future CIS players. They also have many who will never play again after junior.

They also have a few 16 and 17 year olds, signed in part to keep them out of the NCAA. Those players would be competing against 21-25 year old players who themselves played major junior from 1 to 5 years ago.

The result is that university teams (outside of a few weaker programs) would win 90% of their games (or more) against major junior teams.

If you don't believe it, ask Harry Neale, Kelly Hrudey, Don Cherry, Barry Trotz, Mike Babcock, and Mike Keenan, all of whom have publicly expressed a similar opinion.

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