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Dominik Hasek retires, what is the legacy?

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Old
10-14-2012, 12:35 PM
  #76
chi777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
No they really don't, no one's does and that's actually a fact, not just an opinion.
You're right, Hasek's are better. Both GAA and SV%.

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10-14-2012, 12:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It's no more ridiculous than comparing the KHL's talent level to that of the NHL. And if someone responds to my post with sarcasm they can expect sarcasm in return. There's no need for people to react like a 16 year old girl over it.
Yes it is, but I doubt you'll take our word on that one.

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10-14-2012, 12:45 PM
  #78
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi777 View Post
You're right, Hasek's are better. Both GAA and SV%.
This...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
False. Roy easily has the three best playoff runs between the two of them based on save % adjusted for era. He also effectively doubles Hasek in career playoff GVT
...and this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I mean you realise that Roy put up a .923 S% and 1.93GAA in the '86 playoffs at a time when goalies were lucky to break a .900 S% and keep their GAA's below 3.50.
...and this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
His absolutely ridiculous and insane playoff OT record of 40-16 (24-6 as a Hab!!!), next closest is Belfour at 22-24.
The fact that out of the playoff series he lost, he lost more of them in 7 games than he lost in 4, 5 or 6 games combined.
That he has close to 40 more PO wins than any other goalie 151-94 (.616 winning %) to Brodeur's 113-91(.554 winning %).


Roy's playoff resume:
Total Series: 43
Series wins: 32
Series losses: 11 (1 in 4 games, 2 in 5 games, 2 in 6 games and 6 in 7 games)

Basically, if you had Roy in net, your team only had about a 11% chance of being eliminated in less than 7 games and about a 75% chance of winning.
THAT is ridiculous!
Roy is the undisputed playoff king and NO ONE ELSE comes close.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-14-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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Old
10-14-2012, 12:53 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It's no more ridiculous than comparing the KHL's talent level to that of the NHL. And if someone responds to my post with sarcasm they can expect sarcasm in return. .
A KHL superstar who jumps into the NHL, or vice versa, have generally proved themselves to be good second liners lor ok first liners, (Radulov, Jagr, Morozov, etc). Mature* CHL superstars like Brent Aubin or Robert Slaney generally turn out ECHL caliber when they sign in the pros. If guys like Slaney can't be as good in the AHL (which is generally thought to be comparable but still below the KHL) as guys like Radulov are in the NHL, then you're factually wrong.

*We're not talking about Spezza, Tavares, etc here. There's a major difference between how good those guys were at 17 when they tore up whatever junior league, and then at 18, 19, 20 when they made their NHL impact. If you were going to use future NHL superstars as an example of how the CHL has high-caliber hockey players, then 21-year old CHL stars should be able to make NHL impacts too. They don't.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-14-2012 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Quoting edited post
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Old
10-14-2012, 02:55 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
It's no more ridiculous than comparing the KHL's talent level to that of the NHL. And if someone responds to my post with sarcasm they can expect sarcasm in return.
I'm one of the KHL's biggest detractors, but the difference in level of play between the NHL and KHL is so much less than the KHL and QMJHL it isn't even funny.

And in any case, the NHL has nothing to do with your comment. You essentially claimed that the KHL = the QMJHL which is utterly laughable.

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10-14-2012, 03:39 PM
  #81
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As a really good goalie. What he did for those Buffalo teams during his career was fantastic. If he had come over in the 80's there's no doubt in my mind he'd be my choice as the best goalie in hockey history.

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10-14-2012, 05:11 PM
  #82
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I mean you realise that Roy put up a .923 S% and 1.93GAA in the '86 playoffs at a time when goalies were lucky to break a .900 S% and keep their GAA's below 3.50.
Lucky or not several goalies posted .900% in the '80s. Roys '86 were supreme but let's not make this a hyperbole. He had many flops too like in '87 still he was young and an incredible goalie. Hasek were better in my opinion but its not like its by much.

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10-14-2012, 05:24 PM
  #83
Rhiessan71
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Lucky or not several goalies posted .900% in the '80s. Roys '86 were supreme but let's not make this a hyperbole. He had many flops too like in '87 still he was young and an incredible goalie. Hasek were better in my opinion but its not like its by much.
Do me and yourself a favour in the future and look up what actually went on before posting something in ignorance.

A post of mine in to response to another poster spouting the same ignorant BS about Roy in '87...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
No actually, the only BS here is what you're trying to spout.
Big Bird was a declining 36 year old and and Chelios was a season removed from being a rookie in '86.
Bobby smith was a good player but he sure as hell wasn't the superstar you're making him out to be lol.
Lemieux was a clutch playoff goal scorer but he also wasn't a top player.
Naslund was very good but again, he was no super star, sorry.

Where you truly show your knowledge, or in this case, supreme lack of, is mention of the Flyers series in '87.
Considering Roy was injured earlier in the playoffs, tried to come back in Game 4 but was obviously not ready yet and let in 4 goals on 20 shots before giving way back to Hayward. It was the only game he played in that series sooooo....I'm not sure what the hell you're trying to talk about!



Here's the Box scores from all 6 games
Game 1 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870070
Game 2 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870072
Game 3 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870074
Game 4 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870076
Game 5 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870078
Game 6 http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin....cgi?O19870080


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-14-2012 at 05:31 PM.
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Old
10-14-2012, 05:48 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Do me and yourself a favour in the future and look up what actually went on before posting something in ignorance.

A post of mine in to response to another poster spouting the same ignorant BS about Roy in '87...
Still several goalies managed to break the .900% SV% mark which was the point of my post.

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10-14-2012, 06:12 PM
  #85
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Can anyone tell me who lead the post season in save% in 85-86? I see it wasn't Roy, from the lack of a bolded print on reference. I'm wondering if someone else did very well, or if it was simply someone who played one series at a high level, but got bounced.




edit - upon navigation, i see it was Mike Liut, with only 8 games played, and a .938

disregard.

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10-14-2012, 06:43 PM
  #86
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Still several goalies managed to break the .900% SV% mark which was the point of my post.
Yeah, the only goalie ahead of Roy was Liut, who had a .938s% and a 1.90GAA in less than 8 games played.
The next closest to Roy was Millen with a .912s% and a 2.97GAA in 10 games.
After that it was Peters at .905s%, 2.65GAA in 9 games and Wregget with a .901s% and 3.16GAA in 10 games.
Quite the gap there my friend.
Either way, those 5 are the only goalies that even played more than 1 game that broke a .900s% and even including all 30 goalies from that year, only 8 broke a .900s% period.



Now lets compare that to Hasek's .939s% and 1.77GAA in '99.
Out of the 25 goalies that played in the '99 playoffs, only 9 of them failed to crack a .900s%, meaning 16 of them did and even whittling out the ones that played less than 5 games, that's still 11 over .900.
[Out of the goalies that played 4 or more games, 8 of them broke a .920s% and 2 others along with Hasek broke .930.
That includes the goalie that DID actually win the Cup that year, Ed Belfour with his .930s% and a 1.67GAA.

See how just a little context shows just how impressive Roy's '86 numbers were compared to his peers while Hasek's '99 numbers aren't actually that outrageous compared to his peers.

Honestly, just stop. Hasek owns the regular season and peak but Roy completely owns the playoffs. Those are just the facts and there's really no use in arguing against them.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-14-2012 at 06:51 PM.
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Old
10-14-2012, 06:52 PM
  #87
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the way i see it - Roy had 3 playoff runs where he was the man, and 1 where he did his job, and his team won. Hasek had won where he did his job, and his team won, one where he was the man, but his team was unwinnable with. I give Hasek the credit for the Olympics as the man who carried the win.

All this leaves Roy with one trump card in the playoffs over Dom.

Whether or not this triumph means more than the 6 Vezinas and two Harts is what it comes down to for me. You know from my posts that I support Hasek, but i do like to be open-minded. There IS an argument for either guy. I will simply not support any votes for Brodeur.

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Old
10-14-2012, 07:00 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
the way i see it - Roy had 3 playoff runs where he was the man, and 1 where he did his job, and his team won. Hasek had won where he did his job, and his team won, one where he was the man, but his team was unwinnable with. I give Hasek the credit for the Olympics as the man who carried the win.

All this leaves Roy with one trump card in the playoffs over Dom.

Whether or not this triumph means more than the 6 Vezinas and two Harts is what it comes down to for me. You know from my posts that I support Hasek, but i do like to be open-minded. There IS an argument for either guy. I will simply not support any votes for Brodeur.
You forgot about Roy in '89 and the various 3rd round 6 and 7 game series he had vs the Wings and Stars which pretty much was the Cup.

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10-14-2012, 08:14 PM
  #89
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Do me and yourself a favour in the future and look up what actually went on before posting something in ignorance.

A post of mine in to response to another poster spouting the same ignorant BS about Roy in '87...
one quick note: chelios was in his FOURTH year in 1987, not his second. everything else you say i totally agree with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
the way i see it - Roy had 3 playoff runs where he was the man, and 1 where he did his job, and his team won. Hasek had won where he did his job, and his team won, one where he was the man, but his team was unwinnable with. I give Hasek the credit for the Olympics as the man who carried the win.

All this leaves Roy with one trump card in the playoffs over Dom.

Whether or not this triumph means more than the 6 Vezinas and two Harts is what it comes down to for me. You know from my posts that I support Hasek, but i do like to be open-minded. There IS an argument for either guy. I will simply not support any votes for Brodeur.
i think you're underselling roy here. in '96, i don't think he just "did his job." and having watched both runs, i think it was clear that roy was the second most important av that year. hasek was no better than the third most important/best wing that year.

plus, as rhiessan notes above, he was the conn smythe favourite going into the finals in '89. plus he came within a game of the finals three other times, and within two games of the finals two more times.

he has the fuller career, higher high points, more high points, and the record for conn smythes won. more than simply one trump card, i think.

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10-14-2012, 08:23 PM
  #90
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Best of all time. Period. And I'm Canadian.

I distinctly remember thinking at one point it almost wasn't fair to the other team to have a goalie that good out on the ice. It skewed the results of what should be a team game.

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10-14-2012, 09:26 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
one quick note: chelios was in his FOURTH year in 1987, not his second. everything else you say i totally agree with.
In that quote I was referring to '86 and he only played 12 games in 83/84 and even though he played 15 playoff games that year, his rookie year was still 84/85 where he came in second for the Calder to some guy named Mario Lemieux

86/87 was indeed his 3rd official season and 85/86 was indeed one year removed as a rookie as I stated.

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10-14-2012, 10:02 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
he has the fuller career, higher high points, more high points, and the record for conn smythes won. more than simply one trump card, i think.
Isn’t this a lot like saying that Nicklas Lidstrom had a ‘fuller career’ than Bobby Orr, though? Doesn’t make him better.

The distinction I would make is this :

Patrick Roy had the best career of any goalie in NHL history.

Dominik Hasek is the best goalie in NHL history.

Again, what Hasek did from 1993-99 was absurd. On a garbage team, he dominated like no other goalie in the history of the sport –was the equivalent of winning scoring titles by 30 points.

Career-wise, no, it doesn’t compare to Roy who was at the top of the sport for twice as long and ticked more boxes while he was there. But Roy was never the best player in the sport. Hasek was, for several seasons.

Keep in mind as well that Hasek played at arguably the deepest period ever in terms of goaltending (save maybe the late 1950s) and utterly dominated against Roy/Brodeur/Belfour/etc. at their peaks. Led the league in save % 6 straight years. First-team All-Star 5 times in 6 years (only losing to Carey in a joke of a vote). 6 Vezinas. 2 Harts.

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10-14-2012, 10:48 PM
  #93
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Legacy= One of the best to ever play the game. I hated him but man was he good.

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10-14-2012, 10:53 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
the way i see it - Roy had 3 playoff runs where he was the man, and 1 where he did his job, and his team won. Hasek had won where he did his job, and his team won, one where he was the man, but his team was unwinnable with. I give Hasek the credit for the Olympics as the man who carried the win.

All this leaves Roy with one trump card in the playoffs over Dom.

Whether or not this triumph means more than the 6 Vezinas and two Harts is what it comes down to for me. You know from my posts that I support Hasek, but i do like to be open-minded. There IS an argument for either guy. I will simply not support any votes for Brodeur.
Roy's best playoffs statistically were 1986, 1989, and 1993. That doesn't even include his Conn Smyth in 2001 or 1996 when he was the 2nd most important player on a Cup team


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-14-2012 at 11:00 PM.
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Old
10-14-2012, 11:43 PM
  #95
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Isn’t this a lot like saying that Nicklas Lidstrom had a ‘fuller career’ than Bobby Orr, though? Doesn’t make him better.

The distinction I would make is this :

Patrick Roy had the best career of any goalie in NHL history.

Dominik Hasek is the best goalie in NHL history.
Or...Roy has one of the best careers in NHL history.
Hasek had the highest peak of any goalie in NHL history.

Either way it comes down to Roy's 17 year unmatched playoff dominance vs Hasek's 5-7 year, more regular season, unmatched dominance.

And while I can see some very loose relevance to Hasek = Orr.
I see no relevance to Lidstrom = Roy other than their regular season performances and that's not a dig at Lidstrom either as I don't see any player or goalie matching Roy in playoff performance period.
Quote:
Again, what Hasek did from 1993-99 was absurd. On a garbage team, he dominated like no other goalie in the history of the sport –was the equivalent of winning scoring titles by 30 points.

Career-wise, no, it doesn’t compare to Roy who was at the top of the sport for twice as long and ticked more boxes while he was there. But Roy was never the best player in the sport. Hasek was, for several seasons.
Except from April till June where he was most certainly the best player in the sport many times.

Quote:
Keep in mind as well that Hasek played at arguably the deepest period ever in terms of goaltending (save maybe the late 1950s) and utterly dominated against Roy/Brodeur/Belfour/etc. at their peaks. Led the league in save % 6 straight years. First-team All-Star 5 times in 6 years (only losing to Carey in a joke of a vote). 6 Vezinas. 2 Harts.
Except in the playoffs which is of course the heaviest part of Roy's resume.


The bottom line with these two comes down to where you assign your weights in Career vs Peak vs Playoffs.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-14-2012 at 11:52 PM.
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Old
10-15-2012, 03:41 AM
  #96
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It's no more ridiculous than comparing the KHL's talent level to that of the NHL.
For the record: You are seriously suggesting that the KHL is closer to the QMJHL than to the NHL, right?

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10-15-2012, 06:20 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Or...Roy has one of the best careers in NHL history.
Hasek had the highest peak of any goalie in NHL history.

Either way it comes down to Roy's 17 year unmatched playoff dominance vs Hasek's 5-7 year, more regular season, unmatched dominance.

And while I can see some very loose relevance to Hasek = Orr.
I see no relevance to Lidstrom = Roy other than their regular season performances and that's not a dig at Lidstrom either as I don't see any player or goalie matching Roy in playoff performance period.


Except from April till June where he was most certainly the best player in the sport many times.



Except in the playoffs which is of course the heaviest part of Roy's resume.


The bottom line with these two comes down to where you assign your weights in Career vs Peak vs Playoffs.
Was Roy one of the best ever in the playoffs? Yes, absolutely.

However, he also spent all 18 of his NHL seasons on legitimate Cup contending squads. Top-5 (or so) teams in the league that were excellent whether he was there or not. Great opportunities to win with. And he definitely did amazing things to carry two fringe contenders to the Cup in 1986 and 1993. But hell, the 1986 team was the worst team he ever played on, and they won the Cup.

Hasek spent the bulk of his career on a mediocre-to-awful team that only made the playoffs because of his own heroics. Teams that were impossible to win with, no matter how brilliant he was. And make no mistake - he was generally brilliant in the playoffs.

In 1994, 1998, and 1999 Hasek was ridiculous in the playoffs, including the series where his team was eliminated. He lost not because he wasn't a dominant playoff goalie, he lost because his team simply couldn't score - the guy once lost a playoff series where he posted a .950 save% and a 1.61 GAA. He was providing Conn Smythe-level goaltending, but on a team that couldn't get him into Conn Smythe positions.

The only time Hasek was under age 40 and on a legitimately good team, he won the Cup.

__________

On one hand, yeah, you get credit for what you actually accomplish, and Roy had better playoff results.

But the situations these players played in were entirely different. I see a dominant playoff goalie on a good team vs. a dominant playoff goalie on a crap team.

If Hasek had laid an egg in the playoffs a la Roberto Luongo or Tony Esposito, the playoffs vs. regular season thing would have more traction. But given how Hasek performed when it matters, I have a hard time letting postseason stuff overshadow Hasek's ridiculous regular-season dominance.

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10-15-2012, 08:59 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
No they really don't, no one's does and that's actually a fact, not just an opinion.
Cherry pickin maybe, but if we look at the years when they were both in the playoffs, 1992/1993 - 2001/2002, Hasek's stats are definitely up there with Roy's.
If my calculations don't fail me their stats line read as follows:

Code:
(GP W-L SO GAA Sv% )
Roy 152 97-55 17 2,18 0,924
Hasek 91	53-37 12 2,03 0,928
Roy played all but two years on the Avalanche, Hasek all but one year on the Sabres.
Roy has a slight edge in win percentage, .64 to Hasek's .58.
Now if Hasek had had Roy's win percentage he would have had five more wins over that course of time.
Maybe good enough to win a cup in 1999?!

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10-15-2012, 09:47 AM
  #99
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Was Roy one of the best ever in the playoffs? Yes, absolutely.

However, he also spent all 18 of his NHL seasons on legitimate Cup contending squads.
Really?

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10-15-2012, 09:55 AM
  #100
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If the man wants to keep playing hockey at a lower level that he can do well in after declining, good for him
Absolutely agree.

It often sickens me how much some of the kids around here want to criticize the best players in history for just wanting to play top level hockey as long as they can – Chelios, Forsberg, Hasek…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Too many adjusted numbers being taken at face value for my taste.

Honestly, I don't care what numbers you use or how you present them, I'll never believe that Jagr was more prolific at even strength at any time in his career than Mario was from 88/89 - 92/93 where he averaged 1.31 ESP/game.
Yes, these are the raw totals but after Mario came back, he was clearly not the same player he was yet Jagr, in his prime, is only about the same or slightly ahead of that Mario.

That quite simply just doesn't pass the eye test for me, sorry.
Career, sure. Peak or prime...no and it's a very discernible gap.
I think you’re forgetting that Mario’s game was much more PP-reliant than Jagr’s.

The claim that a peak Jagr was right in Mario’s league at even strength is not as absurd as you claim, and I recommend you consider the evidence instead of essentially plugging your ears and going “LALALALALA”.

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Lucky or not several goalies posted .900% in the '80s..
Yeah but Roy was .923 in those playoffs, not just .900. How many goalies were over .920 in the 1980s?

Answer: the only guys to play 500+ minutes in one playoff in the 1980s and post a .920 sv% are:

1. John Davidson, 1980, 541 min, .927
2. Bob Sauve, 1980, 501 min, .926
3. Patrick Roy, 1986, 1218 min, .923
4. Ken Wregget, 1987, 761 min, .921 (all Norris division games)
5. Patrick Roy, 1989, 1206 min, .921
6. Mike Liut, 1984, 714 min, .920

That’s out of 65 instances of a goalie topping 500 minutes in a playoff from 1980-1989.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
However, he also spent all 18 of his NHL seasons on legitimate Cup contending squads. Top-5 (or so) teams in the league that were excellent whether he was there or not. Great opportunities to win with.
What you’re saying is mostly true; however, Roy did outperform his backups by significant amounts so the level of success they’d have had without him would have been significantly less. Hasek is the only goalie in history who outperformed his backups by a considerably larger margin.

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