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Better hockey major junior vs CIS

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Old
10-15-2012, 07:04 AM
  #26
thook
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Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
You miss the point, Colts Fan.

The good CIS teams are predominantly comprised of major junior grads. There are also some players who did their "overage" year in Junior A before going to university.

While NCAA teams recruit heavily from the USHL, they also recruit heavily from Junior A. Many players decline major junior offers and choose instead Junior A in order to preserve their NCAA eligibility.

Accordingly, Junior A players are not necessarily of a lower calibre than all major junior players. It is NOT like comparing the AHL to the NHL, where the players in the AHL all want to be in the NHL but got cut.

You bring up the upper echelon of major junior players. But those guys are spread amongst 60+ teams. This means that only roughly one out of three teams has a Team Canada-calibre player. Very seldom does a major junior team have more then 1 or 2 future NHL-calibre players. You might be interested to know that Team Canada (Juniors) has roughly a .500 record against CIS teams. One year they played a Calgary/Lethbridge combo and one year a Regina/Saskatchewan combo. The games were just after exams, and in fact some players declined the game due to exams. The CIS team had no practices and introduced themselves to one another in the locker room. The Manitoba Bisons split a pair of games against Team Canada in 2004. The AUS guys on here could tell you about the year they told the AUS players not to hit the junior players so hard for fear of injury.

How would an average major junior team do against Team Canada? And how well would they do after taking off two weeks for exams?

Major junior teams don't play CIS teams any more because it would kill their marketing. The last time there was a game the Alberta Golden Bears crushed the Edmonton Oil Kings 9-1 (or something like that).

Major junior teams have probably one future NHL player, a few future minor leaguers or Euro-pros, and a few future CIS players. They also have many who will never play again after junior.

They also have a few 16 and 17 year olds, signed in part to keep them out of the NCAA. Those players would be competing against 21-25 year old players who themselves played major junior from 1 to 5 years ago.

The result is that university teams (outside of a few weaker programs) would win 90% of their games (or more) against major junior teams.

If you don't believe it, ask Harry Neale, Kelly Hrudey, Don Cherry, Barry Trotz, Mike Babcock, and Mike Keenan, all of whom have publicly expressed a similar opinion.
Well said! Perfectly put.

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10-15-2012, 08:00 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
If you don't believe it, ask Harry Neale, Kelly Hrudey, Don Cherry, Barry Trotz, Mike Babcock, and Mike Keenan, all of whom have publicly expressed a similar opinion.
You can add the voices of Mike Kelly (GM of Saint John Sea Dogs and former UNB and NHL asst coach), Roger Shannon (GM of Lewiston, Asst. GM of Shawinigan and Moncton, as well as UNB) and Danny Flynn (Coach and GM of Moncton and fomer coach of StFX).

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10-15-2012, 12:08 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
You miss the point, Colts Fan.

The good CIS teams are predominantly comprised of major junior grads. There are also some players who did their "overage" year in Junior A before going to university.

While NCAA teams recruit heavily from the USHL, they also recruit heavily from Junior A. Many players decline major junior offers and choose instead Junior A in order to preserve their NCAA eligibility.

Accordingly, Junior A players are not necessarily of a lower calibre than all major junior players. It is NOT like comparing the AHL to the NHL, where the players in the AHL all want to be in the NHL but got cut.

You bring up the upper echelon of major junior players. But those guys are spread amongst 60+ teams. This means that only roughly one out of three teams has a Team Canada-calibre player. Very seldom does a major junior team have more then 1 or 2 future NHL-calibre players. You might be interested to know that Team Canada (Juniors) has roughly a .500 record against CIS teams. One year they played a Calgary/Lethbridge combo and one year a Regina/Saskatchewan combo. The games were just after exams, and in fact some players declined the game due to exams. The CIS team had no practices and introduced themselves to one another in the locker room. The Manitoba Bisons split a pair of games against Team Canada in 2004. The AUS guys on here could tell you about the year they told the AUS players not to hit the junior players so hard for fear of injury.

How would an average major junior team do against Team Canada? And how well would they do after taking off two weeks for exams?

Major junior teams don't play CIS teams any more because it would kill their marketing. The last time there was a game the Alberta Golden Bears crushed the Edmonton Oil Kings 9-1 (or something like that).

Major junior teams have probably one future NHL player, a few future minor leaguers or Euro-pros, and a few future CIS players. They also have many who will never play again after junior.

They also have a few 16 and 17 year olds, signed in part to keep them out of the NCAA. Those players would be competing against 21-25 year old players who themselves played major junior from 1 to 5 years ago.

The result is that university teams (outside of a few weaker programs) would win 90% of their games (or more) against major junior teams.

If you don't believe it, ask Harry Neale, Kelly Hrudey, Don Cherry, Barry Trotz, Mike Babcock, and Mike Keenan, all of whom have publicly expressed a similar opinion.
I think I get your point better than you get mine.
1) First of all I dispute that most CIS teams are made up of Ex Major Junior players, Yes you can pick out a few teams that are( I believe this is called Cherry picking your teams). In my area I can look at the rosters and see some Major Juniors , some junior A and yes even some junior B's on the CIS rosters.

2) As far as some Junior A players declining Major Junior offers to preserve their NCAA eligibility , yes I get it . My Grandson decline a Major Junior offer to keep his eligibility. He now plays D-1 in the states.

3) To Cherry pick , if that is your game. How about the great teams the Hunter's assembled in London a few years ago or the Windsor teams. More than 1 or 2 NHL , AHL and Euro's as you call them on those teams. As far as 16 and 17 year olds go most do not play their first few years and the few that do play on the third and fourth lines
and would be against your junior B line. The ones that play regularly as 16 year olds are the Crosby's , Hall's , McKinnon's , and Mc David's. They would not muscle with your 23 year olds they would dazzle them with speed and talent just as they do the overage 20 year olds in the OHL.

4) How would and average Major Junior team do against Team Canada you say. Well how would and Average CIS team do against Team Canada. They would get killed, Speed does kill doesn't it?

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10-15-2012, 07:48 PM
  #29
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Now we see the motivation to trash CIS hockey, his grandson plays NCAA Div I. From what I see after the top 10 NCAA Div I teams the rest would fit nicely into the CIS.

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10-15-2012, 08:18 PM
  #30
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We seem how an average CIS team would do against Team Canada...the Calgary/Lethbridge team that split two games against 20 of the top 30 or so junior players in the country could probably be classified as an "average" CIS team.

Also, I would say 75 percent of teams in the CIS are made up almost entirely of ex-CHL players. I am curious which CIS team's roster you are looking at? If they are made up of mostly junior A players they are probably a below average team.

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10-15-2012, 10:58 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by WilcoxHound View Post
Now we see the motivation to trash CIS hockey, his grandson plays NCAA Div I. From what I see after the top 10 NCAA Div I teams the rest would fit nicely into the CIS.
I have no intention of trashing CIS hockey, I think it is good . Just not as good as NCAA or Major Junior. The numbers I quoted in an earlier post(26-6-5)for games between CIS and NCAA schools a couple of weeks back would seem to be pretty decisive for this year . Also going back a number of years the results as I remember them have been pretty similar. Those numbers did not just involve the top ten NCAA teams like Wisconsin , MINN and BC. It also included our weak sister league The Atlantic league.

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10-15-2012, 11:57 PM
  #32
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Yes, the NCAA teams usually fare quite well against CIS teams but I would argue they would do at least as good if not better than CHL teams... I think it is something like NCAA > CIS > Junior

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10-16-2012, 12:28 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by UNB Bruins Fan View Post
Yes, the NCAA teams usually fare quite well against CIS teams but I would argue they would do at least as good if not better than CHL teams... I think it is something like NCAA > CIS > Junior
You could be right , I would like to see an NCAA or CIS championship game against Major Junior but know it could never happen with the Memorial cup and all. Kind of reminds me of the 1972 summit series when we all thought the NHL would trample the Russians. Turned out we had a great hockey series. The NHL had a lot to lose and almost did. Maybe Major Junior is afraid to even consider such a game. With UNB at the top of the standings you should have an outstanding winter , wish you the best. Go Barrie Colts and Cornell Big Red!!!!!!!!

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10-16-2012, 01:48 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Colts Fan View Post
You could be right , I would like to see an NCAA or CIS championship game against Major Junior but know it could never happen with the Memorial cup and all. Kind of reminds me of the 1972 summit series when we all thought the NHL would trample the Russians. Turned out we had a great hockey series. The NHL had a lot to lose and almost did. Maybe Major Junior is afraid to even consider such a game. With UNB at the top of the standings you should have an outstanding winter , wish you the best. Go Barrie Colts and Cornell Big Red!!!!!!!!
The NCAA is a mix of the CHL and CIS. Young talent and older grinders.

When Omaha of the USHL played the QMJHL forget which team. Matt White was on Omaha's roster. This was Fall or 07. Matt White is entering his Junior year of the NCAA. The USHL looked pretty good too.

This years gopher teams features 10 players old enough to legally drink. That does not include Bjugstad, WJC alum Rau and soon to be WJC players Reilly and Skjei.

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10-16-2012, 10:30 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Colts Fan View Post
You could be right , I would like to see an NCAA or CIS championship game against Major Junior but know it could never happen with the Memorial cup and all. Kind of reminds me of the 1972 summit series when we all thought the NHL would trample the Russians. Turned out we had a great hockey series. The NHL had a lot to lose and almost did. Maybe Major Junior is afraid to even consider such a game. With UNB at the top of the standings you should have an outstanding winter , wish you the best. Go Barrie Colts and Cornell Big Red!!!!!!!!
I honestly think you are trolling or are misinformed about CIS hockey.

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10-16-2012, 11:30 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
The NCAA is a mix of the CHL and CIS. Young talent and older grinders.

When Omaha of the USHL played the QMJHL forget which team. Matt White was on Omaha's roster. This was Fall or 07. Matt White is entering his Junior year of the NCAA. The USHL looked pretty good too.

This years gopher teams features 10 players old enough to legally drink. That does not include Bjugstad, WJC alum Rau and soon to be WJC players Reilly and Skjei.
you really dont know how the NCAA works

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Old
10-17-2012, 06:42 AM
  #37
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you really dont know how the NCAA works
His name is MN_Gopher, and the team he follows is thus the Golden Gophers of the NCAA. I am not an expert on the NCAA, but I wouldn't disagree that the NCAA seems to have a wide age gap, from top players right out of the US Under 18 program to older players who play in the US or Canada up to and including their overage year followed by up to 4 years of college. While not all the older players are "grinders," and not all the young players are the "talent," I think his comparison is valid.

CIS lacks the star power of the future or current NHL first round draft picks, but contains older players who are done their junior eligibility. In the CHL, all players must be junior eligible.

With the NCAA, there is a combination, some teams have junior eligible players (some of whom are the top NHL prospects), and some have the players who played 4 years of junior and are now in their 3rd or 4th year of college.

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10-17-2012, 07:03 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Colts Fan View Post
You could be right , I would like to see an NCAA or CIS championship game against Major Junior but know it could never happen with the Memorial cup and all. Kind of reminds me of the 1972 summit series when we all thought the NHL would trample the Russians. Turned out we had a great hockey series. The NHL had a lot to lose and almost did. Maybe Major Junior is afraid to even consider such a game. With UNB at the top of the standings you should have an outstanding winter , wish you the best. Go Barrie Colts and Cornell Big Red!!!!!!!!
To be fair to your posts and the responses, the CIS you are familiar with is Ontario (OUA), which is the CIS I follow as well. The OUA has several top teams which are capable of competing nationally (last year's national championship was Western vs. McGill, both of whom play in the Ontario conference), but with so many teams, the discrepancy between the top teams and bottom ones can be huge.

Good teams like Western can have say, 7 defencemen who played their junior in the CHL, and a forward set with 8-9 guys who were in the 50-60 point range at one point in their junior CHL careers. However, some of the poorer teams may only be able to recruit a handful with major junior experience, filling out their roster with Junior A/B players as you mentioned. The OUA recently in my opinion has been improving, but there is still some of this mix.

For example, the team I follow (Laurier) last year would have had roughly half its roster with CHL experience and finished the year well at the bottom. They would not have beat Kitchener (OHL).

The two conferences (Atlantic and West) do not have as many teams, and thus top to bottom are quite strong.

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10-17-2012, 07:38 AM
  #39
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I'm still curious as to what team's rosters he is looking at....

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10-17-2012, 03:36 PM
  #40
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CIS teams hands down !!!

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10-21-2012, 10:29 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Colts Fan View Post
Go Cornell Big Red!!!!!!!!
What's this? this weekends score: Sat.Oct.20 Brock Badgers 2 - Cornell Big Red 2. The game was played on Cornell's home ice, using NCAA rules and was the Badgers 3rd game in 3 days. Someone forgot to tell the Badgers that they play inferior hockey.


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10-22-2012, 05:47 PM
  #42
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The NCAA is a step above (generally speaking) not because of its older, grizzled players but rather because of top flight young talent that makes it a direct competitor to the CHL in terms of attracting pro-prospect talent.
Consider the University of Minnesota, its top players tend to fall in the 18 to 21 year old range, far younger than say a team like UNB whose players are all over the age of 20 with some being as old as 26. Who though would suggest that UNB is the better program??

Generally speaking, CIS teams tend to do better against older and less talented NCAA teams, as the university of Brock proved last weekend.

Some here are not giving enough weight to talent level and ability regardless of age. Last season, Team Canada hopefuls easily handled a CIS team (combined team or Calgary and Lethbridge) by a score of 7-4, completely controlling the play and out shooting them 49-19 (were it not for the Team Canada players tending the net for the CIS team, the score could have been much worse). The year prior the junior team beat the CIS team 6-2. A combined team of Saskatchewan (one of the stronger programs in the CIS) and Regina beat the junior 4-2 but, again were generally outplayed and out shot by a 38-23 margin.
These split CIS squads also have the advantage of playing full lines that are familiar with each other. When Team Canada hopefuls played true CIS allstar teams, the results were not as flattering for the CIS. I remember being in Kitchener Ontario in 2003 where Team Canada blew the OUA allstars away by a score of 8-1.

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10-22-2012, 06:14 PM
  #43
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The NCAA is a step above (generally speaking) not because of its older, grizzled players but rather because of top flight young talent that makes it a direct competitor to the CHL in terms of attracting pro-prospect talent.
Consider the University of Minnesota, its top players tend to fall in the 18 to 21 year old range, far younger than say a team like UNB whose players are all over the age of 20 with some being as old as 26. Who though would suggest that UNB is the better program??

Generally speaking, CIS teams tend to do better against older and less talented NCAA teams, as the university of Brock proved last weekend.

Some here are not giving enough weight to talent level and ability regardless of age. Last season, Team Canada hopefuls easily handled a CIS team (combined team or Calgary and Lethbridge) by a score of 7-4, completely controlling the play and out shooting them 49-19 (were it not for the Team Canada players tending the net for the CIS team, the score could have been much worse). The year prior the junior team beat the CIS team 6-2. A combined team of Saskatchewan (one of the stronger programs in the CIS) and Regina beat the junior 4-2 but, again were generally outplayed and out shot by a 38-23 margin.
These split CIS squads also have the advantage of playing full lines that are familiar with each other. When Team Canada hopefuls played true CIS allstar teams, the results were not as flattering for the CIS. I remember being in Kitchener Ontario in 2003 where Team Canada blew the OUA allstars away by a score of 8-1.
You are talking about a country's top junior player all star team against university teams. Players who will almost certainly make millions in the NHL against guys playing for tuition and books. Give your head a shake. With logic like that no wonder you people are considering electing a guy named "Mitt" to be your president.

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10-22-2012, 08:04 PM
  #44
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You are talking about a country's top junior player all star team against university teams. Players who will almost certainly make millions in the NHL against guys playing for tuition and books. Give your head a shake. With logic like that no wonder you people are considering electing a guy named "Mitt" to be your president.
I attended the game in Ithaca New York this weekend . The score is misleading and not indicative of the play on the ice. Cornell out shot Brock 34-22 , had a goal called back and rang a bunch off the goalposts. Could easily have won the game 6 or 7 to 2. Why Wilcox do you have to get personal with our American blogger , this thread was started by Thook back on 9/29/12 with the express purpose of solicitation of opinions as to the relative merits of Major Junior vs CIS hockey. Other bloggers have tried to bolster there argument for CIS by pointing out that CIS teams have in the past beaten the Canadian National Juniors. I think it is only fair that it be pointed out that combined CIS teams and CIS all star teams have been beaten by Team Canada Juniors. I agree with VOB 's observations about the talent levels favoring Major Junior and NCAA teams. Most CIS teams would be out talented by the Juniors. The Juniors teams like Barrie Colts and other upper echelon teams would in my opinion come out the winners in most but not all games between Major Junior and CIS teams. Unless of course it was refereed like a Quebec Senior League game. I do not contend that 19 and 20 year olds can fight with 24 and 25 year olds. By the way I think Brock acquitted themselves well on Saturday night , they just don't have the talent to compete night in and night out with NCAA teams . One last point of interest to some on this site. The program listed Brock's roster as having 9 Major juniors alumni , 10 Junior A (mostly OPJHL) , and 5 Junior B players (mostly GOJHL). Less than 50 % Major Junior Alums.

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10-22-2012, 08:45 PM
  #45
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Colt's Fan: Nice of you to spin your response in such a manner as to say that Cornell played down to the CIS level.

I am now a new fan of the team that plays for a school named after Sir Isaac Brock. Well done Badgers!!

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10-22-2012, 09:50 PM
  #46
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For what it is worth:

The games between Team Canada and CW teams in recent years are as follows:

Dec. 14, 2004 Manitoba Bisons 4, Team Canada 2*
Dec. 15, 2004 Team Canada 6, Manitoba Bisons 3
Dec, 15, 2006 Calgary/Lethbridge 5, Team Canada 4 STORY
Dec. 15, 2009 Sask./Regina 4, Team Canada 2 STORY
Dec. 17, 2011 Team Canada 7, Calgary/Lethbridge 4 STORY

* The Bisons and excess Team Canada players combined in game 1 of the series.

A lot of old links I used to have for these games are long gone now.

In any event, the CIS teams go into these games right after exams. Not all players are available, and they have to chance to train. Some stories refer to players shaking hands in the dressing room so as to introduce themselves to one another.

And, Team Canada is WAY better than any individual team in the CIS. They take maybe 30 players to camp, from 60+ teams. Almost no team supplies more than one player.

I also found a CIS Blog story on Bob McCown.
Quote:
McCown mentioned in passing on his show yesterday that in his new book, McCown's Law: The 100 Greatest Hockey Arguments (written with support from Mr. Mirtle's globesports.com colleague, David Naylor), he argues that university hockey is the best hockey to be found outside the NHL.

I'm paraphrasing here, but McCown said something like, "There is plenty of evidence that a university team would cream an OHL team... in many cases you have some very good players who are 27, 28, 29 years old ... and no one goes to see it in this country."
There are seldom players in the 27 to 29 age range, but the point is made.

As for the mix of Major Junior and Junior A grads, the OUA teams do skew downward. The Manitoba Bisons' mix is:

Goaltenders: All three from Major Junior.

Defencemen: 7 from Major Junior and 1 from Junior A.

Forwards: 11 from Major Junior and 5 from Junior A, one of which is an NCAA transfer and another of which is a CIS transfer.

Of note, some of the Major Junior grads also had some time in Junior A, as one would expect.

Even the weakest CW teams have an entire roster of Major Junior and Junior A grads.


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10-23-2012, 12:33 AM
  #47
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I think UNB is made up of all major junior players this year (and one former NCAA player), most of which were the captain of their junior team. This includes a goalie who has played in the NHL and a couple guys who have played AHL/ECHL. They also have a handful of former NHL draft picks (LaCosta, Denny, Kidd, Shutron, Wright, Swan, Fillier off the top of my head). They do usually feature 1 or 2 junior A guys though (MacIntosh, Campbell, Corcoran in recent years).


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10-23-2012, 08:05 AM
  #48
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Just checked the U of S roster. Out of 28 players listed, other than the third-emergency goalie, only two of them (Matt Spafford, Jesse Ross) do not have major junior experience. That means 25 U of S Huskies have major junior experience. As it is with top Canada West teams like the Alberta Golden Bears, Manitoba Bisons and Calgary Dinos (and even the UBC Thunderbirds have some impressive former major junior grads), most of these guys are not former WHL fourth-line plugs. The Hockey Dogs have a bunch of former 30-goal and 20-goal scorers from the DUB, not just one or two. Most of these guys were top 6 F or top 4 D on their respective WHL teams and many of them were obviously good enough to be chosen as one of their team's three overagers.
If you really think that major junior teams would win over CIS teams like that (and I don't think they'd have much luck against the Regina Cougars or Lethbridge Pronghorns either), you are simply out of touch with hockey reality.
The only way this could happen is if a goalie did cartwheels and stood on his head.
AUS and Canada West teams, along with maybe the top half of OUA squads, would eat their lunch.
Historically, can you tell me of one major team which has actually defeated a CIS team in the past decade or so?

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10-23-2012, 10:00 AM
  #49
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The original intent of this thread was "Is CIS better than Major Junior?". Or, to put it another way, "Would CIS teams beat Major Junior teams?"

The general concensus is that several CIS teams would win over most Major Junior teams. There are alway exceptions, but overall, that is the perception. some weaker CIS teams would not win over a Major Junior team.

I happen to agree that good NCAA teams will win more than they lose against CIS teams. Again, there are exceptions.

A good rule of thumb when replying to a thread is to stay on topic and not voice your pet theory.

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11-15-2012, 06:45 PM
  #50
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UBC went 1-1-1 on an NCAA trip in October. Tied Denver 2-2, lost to Colorado College 3-1 and beat Air Force 4-2.

Don't know if this argument has been made or not, but most, if not all, ranked NCAA teams have NHL draft picks on them. Usually, CIS teams don't, and if they do, that player isn't using the CIS to further his development.

But, for NCAA vs CIS sake, I think the top CIS schools would do just fine against the bottom half NCAA schools. The likes of Northern Michigan, Clarkson, Minnesota State, Alaska Anchoarge are just getting by Regina, Brock, or even losing to Carleton.

In regards to the OP, I'm more biased to Major Junior, it's closer for me to watch live, however I watch the University Cup every year and am always thoroughly entertained. Since the wife will be out watching Twilight tomorrow , I'm going to see if a buddy of mine wants to check out UBC vs. Manitoba.

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