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Tallon won't trade Bjugstad for Luongo

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Old
10-15-2012, 09:35 PM
  #351
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Where Luongo ends up isn't the point. I'd trade Luongo to Edmonton or Chicago - no matter- I'm concerned about making the Canucks the best they can be. I'll worry about other teams after my team is set.

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10-15-2012, 09:50 PM
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
Would be a pretty severe change of course for Gillis to all of a sudden be willing to trade Luongo within the division. It is absolutely possible that Edmonton jumping into the mix has upped the price, but it doesnt seem like it would be in the Canucks best interest to move Luongo to a team that is up and coming and in the division.

I also find it extremely unlikely that Gillis will waive Luongo and get nothing in return over a less than fair offer from FLA/TOR. It would create bad karma among players as well. Players don't forget when an organization mistreats fellow players.

Edmonton seriously jumping into the mix definitely complicates things from a Toronto perspective and all but eliminates the panthers from the equation, because it seems obvious that Tallon is only looking for a bargain.
Where's your source that suggests he would never trade Luongo within the division?

I certainly think it would be within the Canucks best interest to trade Luongo to the highest bidder, as opposed to trading him to a team that's only offering us a cap dump and a B prospect/mid pick.

I also fully believe that Gillis would waive Luongo before trading him for a cap dump, and threaten to waive him if Luongo tries stiff-arming him the way Heatley did Ottawa.

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10-15-2012, 10:48 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by tmurfin View Post
I don't recall saying any of these things, I said I don't see Lu becoming a backup? I'm sure he'll keep his mouth shut to the media and in the lockerroom, but I don't see him wanting to stay in Vancouver as a backup. It's a complete different situation than Edmonton, there is only one starter goalie. Lets put it this way, if you were at the top of your profession, one of the best, but one person in your company is younger, cheaper, and a little better, do you stick around and be demoted, or jump to another company where you can show your abilities and be appreciated. I don't claim to have any type of insight into any lockerroom but with basic knowledge of the human thought process one would say no one likes to be second best. Put yourself in those shoes, would you take it just because? Lol didn't think so.
I don't know why you assume that Luongo is stuck as a backup or even a 1b goalie. Luongo is an extremely competitive guy and crazy me for thinking this but his pride might give him the drive he needs to take the #1 spot instead of trying to get out of Vancouver. There have been cases in which a goalie has been taken over by his backup and then won his job back the following season.

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10-15-2012, 10:53 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Luongo is a much more consistent goalie, younger & overall skill wise a lot better. A clear upgrade in goal. You're fooling yourself or trying to put Luongo down if you think Luongo has as little impact as Khabibulin did for you.
Define consistent.

Here's a season by season comparison of Khabibulin and Luongo. Their NHL careers are surprising similar.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3c&output=html

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10-15-2012, 11:24 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
Define consistent.

Here's a season by season comparison of Khabibulin and Luongo. Their NHL careers are surprising similar.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3c&output=html
Not sure where you're getting the similarities.

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10-16-2012, 12:25 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Not sure where you're getting the similarities.
Both had early WJC success.

Both had great Olympics around the same age (28 v 30)

Both went to the finals around the same age (30 v 31)

Both had all their all star appearances between 24 to 29.

I fully acknowledge that Luongo has posted superior regular season GAA, SV%, and SO.

Yet both guys have had very similar post season successes.

I don't see a major difference between their careers showing up in that table. What stats am I missing?

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10-16-2012, 01:08 AM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
Both had early WJC success.

Both had great Olympics around the same age (28 v 30)

Both went to the finals around the same age (30 v 31)

Both had all their all star appearances between 24 to 29.

I fully acknowledge that Luongo has posted superior regular season GAA, SV%, and SO.

Yet both guys have had very similar post season successes.

I don't see a major difference between their careers showing up in that table. What stats am I missing?
The meaning of the first bolded sentence?

Luongo has had WJC success, Thomas has not.

Luongo has been to the SCF more times than Tim Thomas did at the same age.

Luongo has had more All-Star appearances than Tim Thomas at the same age.

Luongo has far superior numbers than Tim Thomas did at the same age.

Tim Thomas had no playoff success at the same age as Luongo.

I guess Luongo is hands down a better goalie than Tim Thomas?

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10-16-2012, 01:12 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The player is hardly ever traded right away. Howson held out for quite some time before trading Nash, who was much more open about wanting to leave. Bernier asked to be traded from LA, and they didn't do anything about it. Just because a player says "it's time to move on" doesn't mean he is hell-bent on leaving and can't wait a couple of months while interest picks up.
Once again, putting words in my mouth. Never said he was "hell-bent" or going to be traded immediately.. I just said, more than likely he will be traded at some point, and more than likely it won't be fair value.. Not sure what the argument is here, and it has been months btw

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10-16-2012, 01:30 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm not trying to hide anything here. Luongo has posted better numbers, but they don't look that much different than Khabbys.

Meh, keep laughing. I look at that chart and I see Luongo's best hockey is likely behind him.

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10-16-2012, 01:34 AM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
The meaning of the first bolded sentence?

Luongo has had WJC success, Thomas has not.

Luongo has been to the SCF more times than Tim Thomas did at the same age.

Luongo has had more All-Star appearances than Tim Thomas at the same age.

Luongo has far superior numbers than Tim Thomas did at the same age.

Tim Thomas had no playoff success at the same age as Luongo.

I guess Luongo is hands down a better goalie than Tim Thomas?
Yes. Luongo is hands down the better goalie.

Not the best goalie during the 2011 playoffs, but when comparing their entire careers as a whole the better goalie.

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10-16-2012, 01:55 AM
  #361
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But will Tallon trade Bjugstad for him, and does hf think this a good deal? I'm not quite sure what the consensus is.

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10-16-2012, 01:59 AM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempest2i View Post
Yes. Luongo is hands down the better goalie.

Not the best goalie during the 2011 playoffs, but when comparing their entire careers as a whole the better goalie.
I disagree that Luongo is a better goalie than Tim Thomas, but I respect your consistency.

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10-16-2012, 02:09 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I disagree that Luongo is a better goalie than Tim Thomas, but I respect your consistency.
Wow, I never thought I would hear that come from you But I think Luongo playing the way he did in 2007 is pretty close to Tim Thomas's peak. 47 wins on an average team is pretty good when you look back at it.

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10-16-2012, 05:43 AM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
According to Jason Botchford's twitter, apparently teams like Edmonton coming into the mix have bumped the price up for Luongo and teams are willing to pay. Also, Luongo apparently realizes that Florida is a pipe dream, and can't make a stiff-arm move like Heatley because the threat of him being waived and claimed by Columbus is very real.

Mike Gillis has a hell of a lot more bargaining power here than people are willing to admit.
it's a lot bargaining power when he won't agree to be dealt to the Oilers

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10-16-2012, 07:16 AM
  #365
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it's a lot bargaining power when he won't agree to be dealt to the Oilers
Well this makes no sense. Not to mention you have nothing to support the validity of your claim except benighted speculation.

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10-16-2012, 10:02 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
I don't know why you assume that Luongo is stuck as a backup or even a 1b goalie. Luongo is an extremely competitive guy and crazy me for thinking this but his pride might give him the drive he needs to take the #1 spot instead of trying to get out of Vancouver. There have been cases in which a goalie has been taken over by his backup and then won his job back the following season.
Competitive drive and pride might be what ends up making it all a mess if he ends up being benched for 40/60 games,no?

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10-16-2012, 10:45 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Competitive drive and pride might be what ends up making it all a mess if he ends up being benched for 40/60 games,no?
When you are competitive, you usually realize that if you don't get the #1 job its probably because you are not good enough. You tend to put things like that on yourself and not blame others. Luongo seems like he'd likely take responsibility for losing the starting job on himself and would work hard to try and win it back. I think the whole thing this summer was letting the team know he'd be willing to move his NTC if the team decided to go with Schneider.

The Canuck's goaltending situation is a lot like Boston's the year they won the Cup. You can see trade offers from that off-season where fans from other teams wouldn't even trade a 1st round pick for Thomas. As a Canucks fan, I hope the season: 1) starts; and 2) turns out the same way for us as it did for Boston.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=788575 (post#4 is awesome...just a Conn Smythe and Veizna winning goalie the next year).

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10-16-2012, 11:00 AM
  #368
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I still think a team like Chicago makes the most sense.

If you're going to risk that contract, you want to be a team that can be competing for the Stanley Cup RIGHT AWAY. Luongo may only have ~5 good years left in him.

Edmonton/Toronto/Florida, even if they had Luongo, are all a few years away from competing. So why take such a big risk when you'd essentially be burning through the "good" years on Luongos contract because the team isn't good enough to compete, and then by the team is good enough to compete, Luongo could already be on the decline, and hence prevent the team from actually being competitive.

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10-16-2012, 11:08 AM
  #369
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I still think a team like Chicago makes the most sense.

If you're going to risk that contract, you want to be a team that can be competing for the Stanley Cup RIGHT AWAY. Luongo may only have ~5 good years left in him.

Edmonton/Toronto/Florida, even if they had Luongo, are all a few years away from competing. So why take such a big risk when you'd essentially be burning through the "good" years on Luongos contract because the team isn't good enough to compete, and then by the team is good enough to compete, Luongo could already be on the decline, and hence prevent the team from actually being competitive.
If you can get a franchise-calibre player (or at any rate a player capable of delivering those performances) without giving up a cornerstone player or asset in return, you do it.

Luongo's peak level of play may not coincide with the window in which the Oilers, Panthers and Leafs likely see themselves competing for the Stanley Cup, but there's not much wrong with winning games and being in playoff contention until that time.

Posters seem to forget that Roberto Luongo's contract has a team out clause just before the salary drops; if a team like the aforementioned three acquire him and are in a position to spend to the cap at that time - and his performance is not commensurate with his cap hit - then they can deal him to a team that is happy to have a $5.3m cap hit for $3.3m (then $1.6m, then $1m) actual dollars spent.

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10-16-2012, 11:32 AM
  #370
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
Posters seem to forget that Roberto Luongo's contract has a team out clause just before the salary drops; if a team like the aforementioned three acquire him and are in a position to spend to the cap at that time - and his performance is not commensurate with his cap hit - then they can deal him to a team that is happy to have a $5.3m cap hit for $3.3m (then $1.6m, then $1m) actual dollars spent.
That's pure speculation though. We don't know how the CBA will change first of all, which may negate those types of deals in the future. And if he does decline to where he's not a solid #1 anymore, than even the less wealthy teams may prefer to overpay or take an overpaid cap-hit (with a smaller salary) for a player who can still contribute on a regular basis.

Goalies specifically NEED to play at a high level to be valuable. If a defender or forward has a decline in their abilities, they can simply slide down the depth chart a little bit, but STILL contribute to a winning team 82 games a year. Lescavalier for example can still be a solid #2 Centre for TB. Whereas with goalies, if they decline, and are kept in a #1 goalie role, they are actually hurting the team, or if theyre in a backup role, they really only contribute like ~20-30 games a season.

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10-16-2012, 11:56 AM
  #371
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That's pure speculation though. We don't know how the CBA will change first of all, which may negate those types of deals in the future.
Yeah I am speculating that the league will treat contracts more or less the same way in the next CBA, and you are speculating when you say they may not. We just don't know but I'm not expecting the league and the PA to reinvent the wheel (in this area, at least) when they finally get down to brass tacks.

And in any event, there is no way the league will refuse to honour movement clauses - regardless of how Luongo's deal might affect a team's salary cap numbers he will still be moveable in the summer of 2018.

Quote:
And if he does decline to where he's not a solid #1 anymore, than even the less wealthy teams may prefer to overpay or take an overpaid cap-hit (with a smaller salary) for a player who can still contribute on a regular basis.
Well sure. I mean there is no getting around the fact that Roberto Luongo has a long term deal and if his play falls off a cliff at some point before his salary drops then it will be tough to justify his cap hit.

That being said, unless there is some explosion of goalie talent in the next few years (or contraction of 5-6 teams) there will be a spot in the league for a 38 year old Roberto Luongo, look at historically inconsistent players like Jose Theodore and JS Giguere, Dwayne Roloson, etc.. guys of that calibre are still getting deals from teams that want an experienced netminder without paying the $4-5m going rate or giving them a long term deal.

If a team is trying to dump his cap hit down the line, what I am saying is that they will probably be able to find a taker - they may not get anything of value for him at that time but I would say that acquiring a great goaltender for good value in a trade is enough.. it's unrealistic to expect to recoup your assets when he's near the end of his career.

Quote:
Goalies specifically NEED to play at a high level to be valuable. If a defender or forward has a decline in their abilities, they can simply slide down the depth chart a little bit, but STILL contribute to a winning team 82 games a year. Lescavalier for example can still be a solid #2 Centre for TB. Whereas with goalies, if they decline, and are kept in a #1 goalie role, they are actually hurting the team, or if theyre in a backup role, they really only contribute like ~20-30 games a season.
Unless the next CBA leaves an extremely small margin between the cap floor and the cap ceiling (highly unlikely in a league where you've got several teams that could spend $70m+ and several other teams that probably shouldn't be spending more than about $40m), there will always be teams that operate well below the cap ceiling and as I pointed out above there are some easy examples in recent years of teams with lots of cap space who want experienced goaltending without paying out a huge salary - and are willing to accept less consistent players to achieve that.

There's no reason to believe things won't be that way in six years time.

Just to reiterate - for a team acquiring Roberto Luongo right now, there is good reason to believe they will be able to move him in six years if they wish to; I'm not saying he'll have trade value at that point but the option to move him is there and there should be teams willing to take him in a cap dump scenario.

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10-16-2012, 12:02 PM
  #372
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When you are competitive, you usually realize that if you don't get the #1 job its probably because you are not good enough. You tend to put things like that on yourself and not blame others. Luongo seems like he'd likely take responsibility for losing the starting job on himself and would work hard to try and win it back. I think the whole thing this summer was letting the team know he'd be willing to move his NTC if the team decided to go with Schneider.

The Canuck's goaltending situation is a lot like Boston's the year they won the Cup. You can see trade offers from that off-season where fans from other teams wouldn't even trade a 1st round pick for Thomas. As a Canucks fan, I hope the season: 1) starts; and 2) turns out the same way for us as it did for Boston.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=788575 (post#4 is awesome...just a Conn Smythe and Veizna winning goalie the next year).
I really like post #8

Quote:
Good god no. 36 year old Tim Thomas and 3 more years at 5 million per on the cap????

$%#& NO!!!!! At those numbers they should be paying teams to take him off their hands, not expecting Gagne in return.

Any just in case I wasn't clear enough....


ABOSOLUTELY %$#&ING NOT!!!!!!

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10-16-2012, 12:39 PM
  #373
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I don't think they will trade anything more than a 2nd + Mid Level Prospect for him.

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10-16-2012, 01:32 PM
  #374
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If the meat and bones of the current NHL proposal ends up sticking (reduced salary cap without rolling back player salaries), I think you can essentially stick a fork in what is left of Roberto's trade value.

How about Roberto for a fourth round pick?

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10-16-2012, 01:39 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
If the meat and bones of the current NHL proposal ends up sticking (reduced salary cap without rolling back player salaries), I think you can essentially stick a fork in what is left of Roberto's trade value.

How about Roberto for a fourth round pick?
How about we keep Luongo, until you stick a fork in Phil Kessel?

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