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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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10-16-2012, 01:48 PM
  #251
Cliffy1814
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
For one, he's a crappy beat writer who's only gotten worse, argues with fans over twitter all the time, gets things wrong all the time

edit: Also, it puts stupid pressure on the NHLPA to just sign the deal as is. There's no way this deal gets signed as is. Only a fool would think that, I doubt even the NHL thinks it would be signed as is even if they genuinely think they have made significant concessions to the players.

Saying "balls in your court, better sign it now!" is dumb. What the players need to do is talk to Fehr and decide what they want to do, and then go out and negotiate in good faith with Bettman and the owners. There are certainly aspects of this that still need to be negotiated even if the NHLPA does like it in general
I think what he is probably getting at is the fact that if a full season is not played, revenue decreases which could change the deal.
If I am a player I am taking 50/50. It's stupid to fight for a 53/52/50 phased in appraoch if it's at the expense of missed games. 50% of 82 games could well be more than 52% of 64 games for instance.

I'd push for the longer contracts, full arbitraion rights, and all of those secondary issues vs. figting the 50/50 at this point.

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10-16-2012, 01:49 PM
  #252
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The Rangers didn't invite Redden to AHL camp because they don't want him to get hurt. Compliance/amnesty buyouts are expected to be part of the CBA. If Redden was hurt,the Rangers can't compliance/amnesty buyout Redden.

The NHL did have the AHL players counting in their July proposal.

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There is the demand for five-year term limits on contracts, the elimination of all signing bonuses and a flat salary figure for every year of a contract. No front-loading. No using the long-term mechanism to create cap space and maneuverability. A portion of one-way contracts in the minors charged against the cap.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...3ctsOZ3siejtMI

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10-16-2012, 01:52 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Who are "NHLers in the AHL"?

Players on 1-way contracts?

Anyone know how much money they account for combined? Is it 15 or 30 or 60 m?
I imagine the easy way out will be to say 1-way contracts

I think it is kind of a dumb thing for the NHL to argue about since Redden is really the only example of that loophole being exploited in a spectacular way

If they do change it, then it's certainly going to affect how teams sign players, especially depth players. Lots of 2-way contracts and guys on the fringe losing out on a lot of money

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10-16-2012, 01:52 PM
  #254
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They'd almost certainly have to allow amnesty buyouts if that's the case. Perhaps more than one per team. I doubt that'll fly with the players though.
wouldn't the players love amnesty buyouts? Players get their money and get to go elsewhere. Redden can continue his career rather than be buried in the minors.
I think this piece is a non brainer for both sides. Small market teams love it. Teams like Leafs, Rangers cannot bury their mistakes.

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10-16-2012, 01:53 PM
  #255
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Did the NHL offer a definition of HRR? That is issue 1a for the PA.

The NHL didn't offer their absolute best and final offer. The left room to negotiate. No way in hell is that deal rejected out of hand. No matter how much Fehr is vilified, he is reasonable and it is up to the players.

If the 50% split, with the old definition of HRR comes out to an estimated 12% escrow, cap it at 7 or 8%. or leave it and get contracts to 7 years, exclude AHL deals from the cap. They should re-work buyouts to avoid the AHL death sentence.

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10-16-2012, 01:56 PM
  #256
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NHL finally offered a fair deal to NHLPA. Today could possibly be the day the lockout ends. Its like music to my ears
https://twitter.com/TCuma61/status/258278011567214592

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10-16-2012, 01:57 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I imagine the easy way out will be to say 1-way contracts

I think it is kind of a dumb thing for the NHL to argue about since Redden is really the only example of that loophole being exploited in a spectacular way
Redden is definitely the largest, but there are a lot of $2M+ cases. Finger, McGillis, Kotalik, Morrisonn, Walker, Preissing, etc.

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10-16-2012, 01:57 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Did the NHL offer a definition of HRR? That is issue 1a for the PA.
It's supposedly staying the same as it was for the last CBA

Quote:
The NHL didn't offer their absolute best and final offer. The left room to negotiate. No way in hell is that deal rejected out of hand. No matter how much Fehr is vilified, he is reasonable and it is up to the players.
Yup, I think the players and Fehr will take a real close look at this one and not just blow it off. It wouldn't surprise me to hear some negative comments about it from the NHLPA, but it would surprise me to hear them completely trash it and not be willing to start negotiating on it

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10-16-2012, 01:57 PM
  #259
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If they do change it, then it's certainly going to affect how teams sign players, especially depth players. Lots of 2-way contracts and guys on the fringe losing out on a lot of money
Yea any way you slice it that is a hit to the PA. A slice of HRR going to AHL players and less opportunities. Also does not help big market teams who benefit from the flexibility and ability to bolster their AHL teams.

Yet another move to boost small markets (essentially creating an AHL cap).

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10-16-2012, 01:58 PM
  #260
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I think players as a group will be in favor of regulated contracts. $10 and $20m seasons screw up escrow figures. A $22m season for Weber will mean givebacks for a minimum player.

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10-16-2012, 02:01 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
I think players as a group will be in favor of regulated contracts. $10 and $20m seasons screw up escrow figures. A $22m season for Weber will mean givebacks for a minimum player.
Probably to some extent but I think they are on record as being against changing contract structures.

I don't think they'd mind some specific rules about what you mentioned, but I think they like the really long deals with big money, if they can be swung somehow

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10-16-2012, 02:01 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
wouldn't the players love amnesty buyouts? Players get their money and get to go elsewhere. Redden can continue his career rather than be buried in the minors.
I think this piece is a non brainer for both sides. Small market teams love it. Teams like Leafs, Rangers cannot bury their mistakes.
Like I said in my other post, I worded that poorly. I meant the players might not like AHL players counting against the cap.

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10-16-2012, 02:02 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Rangers didn't invite Redden to AHL camp because they don't want him to get hurt. Compliance/amnesty buyouts are expected to be part of the CBA. If Redden was hurt,the Rangers can't compliance/amnesty buyout Redden.
Would that apply to Pronger as well?

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10-16-2012, 02:02 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Who are "NHLers in the AHL"?

Players on 1-way contracts?

Anyone know how much money they account for combined? Is it 15 or 30 or 60 m?
You'd have Gomez and Redden right off that bat this season without Amnesty. That's $14m right there.

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10-16-2012, 02:03 PM
  #265
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I am told the NHL's offer uses same HRR definitions, codifying existing interpretations.
https://twitter.com/cotsonika/status/258254044550815744

Quote:
#CBA Further proof offer was made in attempt to salvage full ssn: Teams asked to submit additional dates recently 4 condensed/revised sked
https://twitter.com/KatieStrangESPN/...70149545709569

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10-16-2012, 02:04 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by Cliffy1814 View Post
You'd have Gomez and Redden right off that bat this season without Amnesty. That's $14m right there.
Gomez wasn't in the AHL.

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10-16-2012, 02:04 PM
  #267
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“@stevezipay: If NHL season somehow starts on Nov. 2, and sked stands, Rangers 1st game/home opener would be against Flyers on Nov. 4, it appears”

What a ****ing opening!!!

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10-16-2012, 02:06 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
“@stevezipay: If NHL season somehow starts on Nov. 2, and sked stands, Rangers 1st game/home opener would be against Flyers on Nov. 4, it appears”

What a ****ing opening!!!
Of course the schedule wouldn't stand, though, as they want to squeeze 82 games in.

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10-16-2012, 02:07 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
“@stevezipay: If NHL season somehow starts on Nov. 2, and sked stands, Rangers 1st game/home opener would be against Flyers on Nov. 4, it appears”

What a ****ing opening!!!
The schedule wouldn't stand, it would have to be redone.

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10-16-2012, 02:08 PM
  #270
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At least MSG will be ready and the Rangers won't have to start on a crappy long west coast road trip!

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10-16-2012, 02:09 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Of course the schedule wouldn't stand, though, as they want to squeeze 82 games in.
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
The schedule wouldn't stand, it would have to be redone.
There have been tweets suggesting the canceled dates would get added to the end of the original schedule.

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10-16-2012, 02:09 PM
  #272
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Won't happen. They'd rather have the Rangers open against the Kings .

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10-16-2012, 02:10 PM
  #273
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Gomez wasn't in the AHL.
He was going to be this season though by all accounts.

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10-16-2012, 02:10 PM
  #274
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Wait so how confident are we that the season is starting?

This is for my work, I actually have something pending to finish but its contingent on a deal happening.

It looks like a pretty fair deal and the NHLPA would be stupid to reject it.

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10-16-2012, 02:10 PM
  #275
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The schedule wouldn't stand, it would have to be redone.
i would bet that the rangers home dates would pretty much be the same though.. not a ton of availability at MSG

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