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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part IV (UPDATE: "The Union took a step backward")

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Old
10-16-2012, 03:45 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Brooks' problem is that he wants/expects the players to actually win...as in, keep the deal they have or get a better one, and that just won't realistically ever happen. The owners won't suddenly cave and go back to the old CBA. Maybe that's a defeatist mental attitude on my part but I don't think I'm off base

Yes, the players still get screwed, just less screwed
I don't get how they are getting screwed. They will be forced to take less, but they had a lot to start with.

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10-16-2012, 03:46 PM
  #302
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Another clarification

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The NHL has backed down from earlier proposals for some systemic changes to player contracts, league sources told ESPN.com. Tuesday's offer also reopened the possibility of salary arbitration and called for unrestricted free agents to have at least eight years' service time (or be 28 years old), according to the sources.
http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/85...elated-revenue

So its 8 or 28. Not 8 and 28. Shannon tweeted 8 AND 28. NHL wants an extra year from 7 or 27.

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10-16-2012, 03:48 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I don't get how they are getting screwed. They will be forced to take less, but they had a lot to start with.
Just looking at it from their perspective, losing a significant percentage of the money they were making is "getting screwed".

It's always a forced analogy but if your boss said "we were going to cut your pay 20% but instead are just going to cut it 7%" you're still losing money and probably won't be happy about it, you're just not losing as much as you would have been

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10-16-2012, 03:49 PM
  #304
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Thinking out loud: if NHL wants to start season Nov. 2, deal (including ratification by both sides) would probably need to be done by...
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next FRI. There's a lot to be done over next few days.
https://twitter.com/FriedgeHNIC

7 day training camp.

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10-16-2012, 03:56 PM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Brooks' problem is that he wants/expects the players to actually win...as in, keep the deal they have or get a better one, and that just won't realistically ever happen. The owners won't suddenly cave and go back to the old CBA. Maybe that's a defeatist mental attitude on my part but I don't think I'm off base

Yes, the players still get screwed, just less screwed
I don't think he expects the players to win or get any gains. It was just mind boggling that the NHL cancelled a season to get an agreement and then essentially declared war with that first proposal. The way the summer contracts went... essentially collusion with the escrow numbers, it was madness. Bettman hosed the players so bad they got Fehr. Then he tries to hose them again. He needed a new approach, really sit down and talk. Not nuke the land. Larry is passionate, he isn't unrealistic. He has never suggested an unfair cba item.

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10-16-2012, 03:57 PM
  #306
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The fact that Fehr is saying this is an "excellent start" is ridiculous. This proposal, from what has been said, is a win for the NHLPA. Take it and run before you create more chaos. Let's drop the puck November 2nd and get this show on the road!

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10-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
The fact that Fehr is saying this is an "excellent start" is ridiculous. This proposal, from what has been said, is a win for the NHLPA. Take it and run before you create more chaos. Let's drop the puck November 2nd and get this show on the road!


Safe to say the NHL struck a huge blow in this battle for the sympathy for the fans.

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10-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
The fact that Fehr is saying this is an "excellent start" is ridiculous. This proposal, from what has been said, is a win for the NHLPA. Take it and run before you create more chaos. Let's drop the puck November 2nd and get this show on the road!
What's more likely: The NHL locking out the players and then handing over a deal that's a "win" for the other side, or that there are likely several details that we're not privy to yet that make this a starting point for more serious negotiations?

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10-16-2012, 04:00 PM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post


Safe to say the NHL struck a huge blow in this battle for the sympathy for the fans.
Bingo. A major driving factor in this.

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10-16-2012, 04:00 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
What's more likely: The NHL locking out the players and then handing over a deal that's a "win" for the other side, or that there are likely several details that we're not privy to yet that make this a starting point for more serious negotiations?
A, definitely A.

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10-16-2012, 04:00 PM
  #311
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So if the season starts on November 2nd, how long does that leave Gaborik out?

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10-16-2012, 04:03 PM
  #312
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So if the season starts on November 2nd, how long does that leave Gaborik out?
Hard to say, but based on the early estimates, he wasn't due back till December anyway. He's been skating and stickhandling recently.

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10-16-2012, 04:04 PM
  #313
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Bingo. A major driving factor in this.
Whos side the fans are on isn't a deciding factor in the lockout, don't fool yourself.

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10-16-2012, 04:04 PM
  #314
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If Fehr does a back flip in public over this, how does he negotiate a single thing that is an actual issue for the union?

I wonder if you were upset when Bettman laughed at the player proposal without reading it and told the media there was a gigantic gap between the two sides. Oh, by the way the league is using some of the ideas from that proposal. Is he a dick or is he just representing the owners properly?

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10-16-2012, 04:05 PM
  #315
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NYP_Brooksie 3:58pm via Web
Neither side should get hung up on 11/2 or 82 game season...74/76 game season starting 11/15 or so is just fine...Fans save some money too.
Oh shut up, Brooksie. I don't ****ing care that you'll have to get off your couch all 82 times, I want every damn game I can have.

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10-16-2012, 04:07 PM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
The fact that Fehr is saying this is an "excellent start" is ridiculous. This proposal, from what has been said, is a win for the NHLPA. Take it and run before you create more chaos. Let's drop the puck November 2nd and get this show on the road!
Exactly!!! November 2nd hopefully will be a great day

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10-16-2012, 04:08 PM
  #317
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I don't blame Fehr for his comments. Obviously he needs to posture as much as possible to get the most out of this week or so window.

That said, I certainly have a hard time seeing players do much better than this financially.

57% to 50% is a 12.3% cut (leaving out any salary repayment deal that is apparently in this proposal). If they can't agree and are forced to cut (at minimum) a quarter of the season (20ish games) that is a 25% cut this year. Obviously this could potentially get down to an 100% cut for this year.

And in both instances you are playing 2013-14 at 50/50. Even if by some miracle the PA gets to 51-52% for next season, is a 100% cut this year worth it? Not to mention the impact on the total "HRR pie" of losing a year? I don't see it.

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10-16-2012, 04:09 PM
  #318
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Oh shut up, Brooksie. I don't ****ing care that you'll have to get off your couch all 82 times, I want every damn game I can have.
Don't understand the argument that 74/76 games is "just fine". That may be true from a pure hockey standpoint but it is in both sides' best interests to play 82 games. Maximize league revenues and player paychecks.

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10-16-2012, 04:13 PM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I don't blame Fehr for his comments. Obviously he needs to posture as much as possible to get the most out of this week or so window.

That said, I certainly have a hard time seeing players do much better than this financially.

57% to 50% is a 12.3% cut (leaving out any salary repayment deal that is apparently in this proposal). If they can't agree and are forced to cut (at minimum) a quarter of the season (20ish games) that is a 25% cut this year. Obviously this could potentially get down to an 100% cut for this year.

And in both instances you are playing 2013-14 at 50/50. Even if by some miracle the PA gets to 51-52% for next season, is a 100% cut this year worth it? Not to mention the impact on the total "HRR pie" of losing a year? I don't see it.
This is all correct. People need to understand that Fehr is doing a job, and that job is to get the BEST deal he can for the players. This is a negotiation, and he said exactly what he's being paid to say.

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10-16-2012, 04:18 PM
  #320
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IMO, just a guess, but with $16M range I would say cap at $65.75M and floor at $49.75M. Just guesswork, tho.
https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/s...00104358899712

11-12 upper limit was $64.3M.

NHLPA has proposed the floor being a % of the upper limit.

The PA won't accept the offer. They will negotiate off of it. Hopefully. The NHL doesn't expect the PA to accept it as is.

Quote:
Beyond that, I don't want to get into the substance other than to say we believe that this was a fair offer for a long-term deal, and it's one that we hope gets a positive reaction so that we can drop the puck on November 2nd -- which backing up, entails at least a one-week training camp. So we have about nine or ten days to get this all put to bed, signed, sealed and delivered, in order for this offer to be effective and for us to move forward.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...atest-proposal

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10-16-2012, 04:22 PM
  #321
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NHL and NHLPA should decide tonight when and where the next CBA talks will happen.
https://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/sta...01740238131200

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10-16-2012, 04:23 PM
  #322
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they know bettman is backed into a corner. he wouldn't have made a new offer if he wasn't. i wouldn't be surprised if fehr waits until bettman is kissing his feet

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10-16-2012, 04:25 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Don't understand the argument that 74/76 games is "just fine". That may be true from a pure hockey standpoint but it is in both sides' best interests to play 82 games. Maximize league revenues and player paychecks.
Not to mention you want the stats to be relevant historically.

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10-16-2012, 04:26 PM
  #324
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Will Fehr still be speaking at 5?

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10-16-2012, 04:26 PM
  #325
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Will Fehr still be speaking at 5?
It's a conference call with the NHLPA, not with the media

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