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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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Old
10-16-2012, 04:10 PM
  #501
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I agree 100% that MLSE. will do anything & everything to stop another NHL. team from takking root in the GTA. & if that means waivving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no compensation makking way for an NHL. team in Hamilton they will do it . To be honest I think the wheels have been already set in motion for an NHL. team in Hamilton with Global Spectrum & Live Nation Takking over running Copps Coliseum in the spring & MLSE. willingness to keep a 2nd NHL. out of the GTA. I belive Hamilton will have an NHL. team within 5 years along with Quebec City .
Interesting perspective.

Hamilton getting a team would save MLSE from EVER having the option of a second team in the GTA or any other team in Southern Ontario, but what about Buffalo's rights? They're the team I'm more worried about and I'm sure the NHL would have a tough time getting Buffalo to waive their rights to the area. A team there could be devastating to the Sabres and I'm not sure the NHL would ever put an owner in that situation. A team in Quebec City seems most likely and is almost probable to eventually happen. There's a lot to consider with Hamilton, though.

How would a team in Hamilton survive without killing Buffalo? Is it possible?

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10-16-2012, 04:15 PM
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Also what would the courts say about another team in Toronto? Wouldn't this go against our competition laws? Assuming MLSE complained, there's no way a team would be allowed so close.

And I saw that someone said the ownership group could be blackmailed, but does the league do this to their most successful and largest market? These owners are throwing a lot of money (over $600m for the Leafs I believe) and I'm sure something like this would void the deal.

It's hard to bully billionaires, let alone 2 of Canada's largest companies.

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10-16-2012, 04:24 PM
  #503
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The Leafs were too afraid to allow Sens games to be broadcast in their region when we came into the league (the Habs on the other hand made an agreement with us...we show theirs....they show ours).

If they are afraid of a team 5 hours away you think they will allow one in their backyard?

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10-16-2012, 04:26 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Interesting perspective.

Hamilton getting a team would save MLSE from EVER having the option of a second team in the GTA or any other team in Southern Ontario, but what about Buffalo's rights? They're the team I'm more worried about and I'm sure the NHL would have a tough time getting Buffalo to waive their rights to the area. A team there could be devastating to the Sabres and I'm not sure the NHL would ever put an owner in that situation. A team in Quebec City seems most likely and is almost probable to eventually happen. There's a lot to consider with Hamilton, though.

How would a team in Hamilton survive without killing Buffalo? Is it possible?
... smitty, the matter of the Sabres survival should a franchise be granted to Hamilton has been discussed ad nauseum on numerous threads here at hf for eons. The onus of proof is on the Sabres.

They claim that app 15% of their STH's are Canadians, and without further qualification want you to believe that these folks all live in or around Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo & Guelph. Thats impossible, simply not true. Show us the counts by postal code. Youd be looking at Niagara Falls, Niagara on the Lake & environs.

Secondly, what have they done over the past 42yrs in marketing themselves to Hamiltonians & Southwestern Ontarions? Exactly nothing. Nada. Zip. The "great rivalry with the Leafs" promised by the NHL & Imlach in 1970 never happened but for the blip of the French Connection era in the 70's & briefly again when Peca & Hasek were playing for the Sabres.

Then theres the Border Hassles, especially so since 911. Thats one Hell of a trek to be making from Burlington/Hamilton & region on a weeknight. Youd likely only do it if you were hardcore, the Leafs playing in Buffalo or whatever other fan of your favourite team was playing in Buffalo. They have a new & enlightened owner in Pegula, a waiting list for Seasons Tickets. As far as Im concerned, a team in Hamilton would actually be a boon to Buffalo, providing a closer geographical rival for the Sabres while bringing in billions for the league as a whole.

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10-16-2012, 04:27 PM
  #505
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How would a team in Hamilton survive without killing Buffalo? Is it possible?
I know you really don't think Buffalo could survive a Hamilton team, but I assure you there are plenty of fans on this side of the border that will keep the team healthy. There is a STH waiting list, and we have the highest TV ratings in the US (only counts American TVs). The Sabres will gladly take a couple million from Hamilton, but there is no chance that a team in Hamilton "kills" the Sabres.

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10-16-2012, 04:32 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
If they are afraid of a team 5 hours away you think they will allow one in their backyard?
... that was then, this is now. The NHL would have likely told Rogers/Bell "happy to approve your ownership, just sign off right here right now on previous ownerships' territorial disputes and were good to go". As Rogers & Bell bought MLSE for "content", you better believe the addition of another possibly two teams in Southern Ontario would be attractive.

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10-16-2012, 04:33 PM
  #507
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The Leafs were too afraid to allow Sens games to be broadcast in their region when we came into the league (the Habs on the other hand made an agreement with us...we show theirs....they show ours).

If they are afraid of a team 5 hours away you think they will allow one in their backyard?
Wouldn't say they're 'afraid'. The largest, most financially successful market in hockey and second oldest franchise is protecting their brand in the territory they were granted. Ottawa being in Ontario is more of a threat to Toronto than Ottawa is to French-speaking Canada's Habs. Heck, Toronto owns the trademark to almost every 'maple leaf' design out there and enforces it strictly. They're very brand-conscious.

That being said your point is correct. MLSE (although under new ownership) will almost certainly not allow a team in Toronto. Far to close and could take some revenue from the team.

I like the idea that the poster I quoted in my last post had. He suggested that Toronto waive their rights' to the Hamilton area and allow a team there. That would take any idea currently under consideration of expanding/relocating a second team to Toronto off the table and would close the door on any further expansion into Southern Ontario. However, Buffalo would have to waive their rights' too and I don't think that would happen.

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10-16-2012, 04:35 PM
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I know you really don't think Buffalo could survive a Hamilton team, but I assure you there are plenty of fans on this side of the border that will keep the team healthy. There is a STH waiting list, and we have the highest TV ratings in the US (only counts American TVs). The Sabres will gladly take a couple million from Hamilton, but there is no chance that a team in Hamilton "kills" the Sabres.
Sorry, survive may not be the right word. What I meant was would they continue growing without losing attendance, revenue or TV ratings if Hamilton got a team? I would think that a team there would take a fair amount of support in Southern Ontario away from the Sabres, which would hurt them if not immediately, then in the long run.

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10-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #509
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... smitty, the matter of the Sabres survival should a franchise be granted to Hamilton has been discussed ad nauseum on numerous threads here at hf for eons. The onus of proof is on the Sabres.

They claim that app 15% of their STH's are Canadians, and without further qualification want you to believe that these folks all live in or around Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo & Guelph. Thats impossible, simply not true. Show us the counts by postal code. Youd be looking at Niagara Falls, Niagara on the Lake & environs.

Secondly, what have they done over the past 42yrs in marketing themselves to Hamiltonians & Southwestern Ontarions? Exactly nothing. Nada. Zip. The "great rivalry with the Leafs" promised by the NHL & Imlach in 1970 never happened but for the blip of the French Connection era in the 70's & briefly again when Peca & Hasek were playing for the Sabres.

Then theres the Border Hassles, especially so since 911. Thats one Hell of a trek to be making from Burlington/Hamilton & region on a weeknight. Youd likely only do it if you were hardcore, the Leafs playing in Buffalo or whatever other fan of your favourite team was playing in Buffalo. They have a new & enlightened owner in Pegula, a waiting list for Seasons Tickets. As far as Im concerned, a team in Hamilton would actually be a boon to Buffalo, providing a closer geographical rival for the Sabres while bringing in billions for the league as a whole.
I figured the majority of Canadian support was from the Niagara region. There's a good chance that a fair amount of fans in that area would convert to the Hamilton franchise and I think that would hurt Buffalo. The hundreds of millions that the Hamilton team would bring in would definitely be beneficial and welcomed by the BOG and NHL, but would Buffalo actually allow a team there if that threatened 15% of their STH base? I would think that as a business man, Pegula would at least attempt to block a franchise entering that market. Whether necessary or not, I'd think he'd at least put up a fight, but a nice cheque could really change his outlook, I'm sure.

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10-16-2012, 04:40 PM
  #510
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Stupid move. Or more like stupid rumour.

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10-16-2012, 04:42 PM
  #511
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Does a second team enter the market before these two start what is certain to become yet more of the same old same old internecine warfare (insuring Leaf mediocrity for another decade) around the Boardroom table at MLSE? Or is a Toronto2 franchise born from the Divorce Agreement that follows? I believe the former happens, as it might take 7-10yrs for these guys to really start throwing the Haymakers at one another, storming out the door, checking into a hotel. But Hamilton, Hamilton might be created from the rubble, Markham entering earlier & first under Roustan & partners in 2015-16. Very possible.
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
MLSE. argument would be that Markham is well within there teritory & a another NHL. team in the area would hurt just not the Leafs but the Raptors & Marlies as well which MLSE. also owns & dose not want to give up there territory rights to an area so close to where they play . Hamilton on the other hand is just on the outer limits of Leafs teritory & team there would not impact MLSE. & there other intrests & MLSE. will most likely help Hamilton try to land an NHL. team just to keep a team out of Markham & out of the GTA. .
Right, so the If the NHL was smart (Huge stretch) than the tweet is slightly misleading: After the CBA is signed, the NHL will add Quebec and a team currently in Toronto's territory: HAMILTON, not Toronto.

The NHL would have made MLSE waive it's right to HAMILTON as part of the condition of the sale (and make the right to the GTA market the property of both Rogers and Bell to pave the road for an amicable separation later).

Pull out the 8-8-7-7 alignment plan the NHL approved, and slot:
-- QUE as team #8 in the Northeast Conference.
-- CBJ as team #8 in the Atlantic Conference (rivalry with PIT).
-- HAM takes CBJ's place in the Central Conference (with DET).

More jobs for the NHLPA, expansion fees could be added to the revenue sharing pool.

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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Interesting perspective.

Hamilton getting a team would save MLSE from EVER having the option of a second team in the GTA or any other team in Southern Ontario, but what about Buffalo's rights? They're the team I'm more worried about and I'm sure the NHL would have a tough time getting Buffalo to waive their rights to the area. A team there could be devastating to the Sabres and I'm not sure the NHL would ever put an owner in that situation. A team in Quebec City seems most likely and is almost probable to eventually happen. There's a lot to consider with Hamilton, though.

How would a team in Hamilton survive without killing Buffalo? Is it possible?
Hamilton would have to pay off ONE team (Buffalo) instead of TWO (Buffalo/Toronto), making it possible. But I don't think Hamilton kills GTA2 from coming into existence. We all see the Rogers/Bell standoff coming.

When Rogers and Bell stop getting along, they're both going to want the OTHER to sell their share. Anyone who walks away from MLSE is going to want to CRIPPLE the company retaining MLSE. It's gonna get ugly.

The GTA2 franchise solves that: the value of rights fees (and media rights) lowers the price of buying out the other side, and getting the GTA2 franchise makes someone willing to walk away. They could arrange a deal that makes both companies happy if they are either team and have a coin flip on national TV for which side leaves MLSE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Also what would the courts say about another team in Toronto? Wouldn't this go against our competition laws? Assuming MLSE complained, there's no way a team would be allowed so close.

And I saw that someone said the ownership group could be blackmailed, but does the league do this to their most successful and largest market? These owners are throwing a lot of money (over $600m for the Leafs I believe) and I'm sure something like this would void the deal.

It's hard to bully billionaires, let alone 2 of Canada's largest companies.
That's why the NHL should have made this a condition for approval of the sale (it was $533 million each for Rogers and Bell for 37% ownership each). You can't bully the richest, most powerful owners… unless they're not owners yet. If that's the price of admission, they'll do it or not get MLSE.

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10-16-2012, 04:59 PM
  #512
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Interesting perspective.

Hamilton getting a team would save MLSE from EVER having the option of a second team in the GTA or any other team in Southern Ontario, but what about Buffalo's rights? They're the team I'm more worried about and I'm sure the NHL would have a tough time getting Buffalo to waive their rights to the area. A team there could be devastating to the Sabres and I'm not sure the NHL would ever put an owner in that situation. A team in Quebec City seems most likely and is almost probable to eventually happen. There's a lot to consider with Hamilton, though.

How would a team in Hamilton survive without killing Buffalo? Is it possible?
Teritories for each team is anything within a 50 mile raidius & Buffalo is about 65 miles away from Hamilton so Hamilton is about 15 miles outside there territory . Besides 95% of the Buffalo Sabres fan base comes New York & the small number Sabres fans that come southern ontario come from Niagara Falls , St. Cathernies , Welland & Fort Erie not Hamilton & the fan base for Hamilton team would mainly come from Hamilton area & southwestern Ontario . So if & when Hamilton gets a team I don't think Buffalo will have anything to worry about because they got a strong fan base there in western New York & strong ownership present as long they have that a Hamilton team will be no threat to the Sabres .

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10-16-2012, 05:01 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
A - the NHL picked a number that seems fair and will try to find an owner who is willing to pay it.
B - MLSE had to waive their territorial rights for $0.
C - (Most logical) - the agreed to indemnity is that Rogers/Bell get mobile device media rights to the NEW TEAM as well, just like they are sharing the Leafs rights.
D - There's no deal in place, this is my imagination filling in (pretty good sounding) details on a rumor.
Probably agree with you here, and maybe even a step further. They might even ask for a cut of their traditional TV rights, a la the concession that MLB gave the Orioles in order to get them to acquiesce in allowing the Expos to move to D.C. Even if it's only for a few years, owning the TV and radio rights to a Markham-based team would probably be worth every penny to the new Leaf owners.

But, that being said, it obviously depends on how exactly involved the NHL has been in the MLSE/Rogers negotiations. If this is suddenly sprung on both parties, then Rogers/Bell might legitimately have ground to demand a reduction in the sales price of the team as part of the value they thought they had in the franchise was in potentially exerting out an indemnity from a new team or holding exclusive rights to the GTA market. And the Leafs might have grounds to sue for the league in tampering with their in-good faith negotiations and resulting in a reduction of the value of their team as a result of a loss of their monopoly of the GTA and southern Ontario market.

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10-16-2012, 05:02 PM
  #514
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Right, so the If the NHL was smart (Huge stretch) than the tweet is slightly misleading: After the CBA is signed, the NHL will add Quebec and a team currently in Toronto's territory: HAMILTON, not Toronto.
... yes, unfortunately that is a "H u g e S t r e t c h". My feeling is that Markham actually comes before Hamilton. Its just impossible to predict with so many balls in the air at the moment, everything in flux, but instinctively, my gut tells me Roustans' got an inside track, the wheels greased, cards marked.

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10-16-2012, 05:03 PM
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Teritories for each team is anything within a 50 mile raidius & Buffalo is about 65 miles away from Hamilton so Hamilton is about 15 miles outside there territory . Besides 95% of the Buffalo Sabres fan base comes New York & the small number Sabres fans that come southern ontario come from Niagara Falls , St. Cathernies , Welland & Fort Erie not Hamilton & the fan base for Hamilton team would mainly come from Hamilton area & southwestern Ontario . So if & when Hamilton gets a team I don't think Buffalo will have anything to worry about because they got a strong fan base there in western New York & strong ownership present as long they have that a Hamilton team will be no threat to the Sabres .
Isn't that their marketing territory? I thought that teams had drawn out territory that other franchises couldn't be placed in. I could definitely be wrong though.

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10-16-2012, 05:05 PM
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... yes, unfortunately that is a "H u g e S t r e t c h". My feeling is that Markham actually comes before Hamilton. Its just impossible to predict with so many balls in the air at the moment, everything in flux, but instinctively, my gut tells me Roustans' got an inside track, the wheels greased, cards marked.
Why do you think that Markham would get a team before Hamilton?

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10-16-2012, 05:18 PM
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Oh boy, every time I try to leave, they pull me back in.

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10-16-2012, 05:19 PM
  #518
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Any consideration of putting an expansion team in Montreal? At least on paper it would seem to me that they could support a second team as well as Toronto could.

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10-16-2012, 05:27 PM
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Why do you think that Markham would get a team before Hamilton?
... Roustans' connections to the league's powerbrokers in Jacobs & Snider; business relationships everywhere else through Bauer; brand new state of the art building & development etc etc etc. Hamilton as a market & Copp's as a facility has been pilloried by both Bettman & Daly in defending the leagues right of determination with respect to location and Balsillies thrice thwarted hostile relocation attempts. Now that an NHL insider will be managing HECFI's portfolio likely with a view to either the complete refurbisment of Copps' & attendant development within the surrounding area or possibly a complete new arena, the sale of MLSE to Rogers/Bell, new ownership in Buffalo, the need for some retrenchment in placing teams in markets that wont require propping up & who will gainfully & substantially increase league-wide revenues the landscape has fundamentally changed.

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10-16-2012, 05:27 PM
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Any consideration of putting an expansion team in Montreal? At least on paper it would seem to me that they could support a second team as well as Toronto could.
Montreal will never see 2 teams again. In the first season of the NHL they had the Wanderers' and Canadiens and in the 30's they had the Maroons, but neither team succeeded. Since Toronto has taken over as the largest city in Canada they're the only city that would be considered for a second team. Quebec will get another team eventually in Quebec City, but not Montreal.

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10-16-2012, 05:30 PM
  #521
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Isn't that their marketing territory? I thought that teams had drawn out territory that other franchises couldn't be placed in. I could definitely be wrong though.
No there is no difference between marketting & Drawn out territory it is a 50 mile radius around the city & 1 other thing the Sabres do not advertise , televise or sell there merchandise in Hamilton department stores .

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10-16-2012, 05:32 PM
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Questions Growing in Markham arena deal



http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...ham-arena-deal

Sorry if already posted.

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10-16-2012, 05:33 PM
  #523
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... Roustans' connections to the league's powerbrokers in Jacobs & Snider; business relationships everywhere else through Bauer; brand new state of the art building & development etc etc etc. Hamilton as a market & Copp's as a facility has been pilloried by both Bettman & Daly in defending the leagues right of determination with respect to location and Balsillies thrice thwarted hostile relocation attempts. Now that an NHL insider will be managing HECFI's portfolio likely with a view to either the complete refurbisment of Copps' & attendant development within the surrounding area or possibly a complete new arena, the sale of MLSE to Rogers/Bell, new ownership in Buffalo, the need for some retrenchment in placing teams in markets that wont require propping up & who will gainfully & substantially increase league-wide revenues the landscape has fundamentally changed.
Wasn't the move to Hamilton (Preds) blocked because of Balsillie's business tactics and trying to force his way into the NHL while breaking all of their rules? I don't think it had anything to do with the Hamilton market and Copps is either being renovated or has been renovated to be a sufficient NHL building. This time around, Balsillie won't be involved in the leadership group and although GTA2 would have substantial involvement by businessmen with connections, that doesn't mean they're guaranteed a team. The Maple Leafs could very easily block the sale and I don't think the NHL has said they'll do anything to force them to waive their territory rights, nor would Bell/Rogers agree to such rules.

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10-16-2012, 05:33 PM
  #524
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Montreal will never see 2 teams again. In the first season of the NHL they had the Wanderers' and Canadiens and in the 30's they had the Maroons, but neither team succeeded. Since Toronto has taken over as the largest city in Canada they're the only city that would be considered for a second team. Quebec will get another team eventually in Quebec City, but not Montreal.
Well, Quebec I'd take as a given and I'm surprised it's taken this long for a return of the Nordiques. The thing is, if there's talk about putting a second team in a Canadian city I would think Montreal would get at least some consideration since there's only about 1mil difference in the the sizes of their respective metro areas: 5.5mil Toronto vs 4.5mil Montreal.

Just curious is all.

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10-16-2012, 05:41 PM
  #525
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Under the age of around 25, you are correct. Older fans (aka those with money) certainly are still dominated by the two O6 clubs.
Not at all. You shouldn't base things upon what you see at the homeless shelters.

Most Leaf fans in Ottawa are university/college students from southern Ontario. Hab fans tend to be on the other side of the river or have moved to Ottawa from east of Ontario.

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