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10-16-2012, 08:23 PM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouroboros View Post
Fehr has the league right where he wants them. He won't accept this deal.
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Originally Posted by steffeG View Post
The PA obviously won't accept this. It can only get better from here on for the PA.
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Originally Posted by John Holmes View Post


The PA is not going to accept this. They will table a counter proposal which the owner's will reject, but they are at least entering the actual negotiation phase of the lockout.

This is still very positive news, but the PA has to go through a whole lot of legalese and they are bound to find things they don't like.
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Originally Posted by littleD View Post
PA isn't going to accept this.

5 year contract limits, max 5% salary variance, FA age increase... not gonna happen that easy.
I agree with ALL of this.

Anyone that thinks the NHLPA is going to accept this offer CLEARLY skipped "Donald Fehr 101" in their History of Labor in Pro Sports syllabus.

Fehr is just getting started. I agree that the latest owners proposal is a great step forward, but revisionist history shows that there's a better-than-good chance that Fehr doesn't meet Bettman halfway on this, digs his heels in, and plays "the waiting game".

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10-16-2012, 08:42 PM
  #177
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^^^

All that being said, if Fehr decides to go against the clear precedent he's set for himself and get this deal done soon, I'm of course all for it.

I'm trying to stay positive...

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10-16-2012, 08:42 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I agree with ALL of this.

Anyone that thinks the NHLPA is going to accept this offer CLEARLY skipped "Donald Fehr 101" in their History of Labor in Pro Sports syllabus.

Fehr is just getting started. I agree that the latest owners proposal is a great step forward, but revisionist history shows that there's a better-than-good chance that Fehr doesn't meet Bettman halfway on this, digs his heels in, and plays "the waiting game".
And he's a moron for doing so. The players have so much more to lose than the owners. They won't ever recoup the money they lose from a year off.

reDQless

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10-16-2012, 08:48 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
^^^

All that being said, if Fehr decides to go against the clear precedent he's set for himself and get this deal done soon, I'm of course all for it.

I'm trying to stay positive...
I'm sure a lot of players are in favour of returning to play after they saw that deal. Many of them have stated so on social networks. If it takes more than 7-10 days to come up with a deal after that proposal, the lockout will be the NHLPA's fault and not the NHL's (like Fehr has stated many times...it's a choice).

Well the choice is here, owners are offering half of the shared revenue....

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10-16-2012, 08:52 PM
  #180
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And he's a moron for doing so. The players have so much more to lose than the owners. They won't ever recoup the money they lose from a year off.

reDQless
I won't comment on his being a moron or not, but in his mind, short term losses < long term gain. Look at how well the MLBPA did in his time there. It's very easy to see how if you orchestrated THAT salary structure on behalf of the MLBPA, you'd be trying to replicate it now that you're representing the NHLPA, both in it's results AND the methods that brought those results about. Baseball salaries are so far out of control, it's scary.

I think we'll have a good idea at where this is all going to go when the NHLPA submits their counter offer in the next couple of days. I'm not as confident as some people are that this proposal from the NHL means the lockout is ending sooner rather than later.

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10-16-2012, 08:53 PM
  #181
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Most of the other sports leagues have settled on a similar deal. This should have been the initial deal from the NHL, we'd have a season by now.

NHLPA is going to counter once or twice and hopefully the season will be on its way

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10-16-2012, 08:58 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mat_sens View Post
I'm sure a lot of players are in favour of returning to play after they saw that deal. Many of them have stated so on social networks. If it takes more than 7-10 days to come up with a deal after that proposal, the lockout will be the NHLPA's fault and not the NHL's (like Fehr has stated many times...it's a choice).

Well the choice is here, owners are offering half of the shared revenue....
I really, really hope that's the case, and that it's enough to push forward and get things done.

If anything, I have confidence in the players being involved enough in the negotiations to drive that point forward. They can't let Fehr just do his thing. The worst thing that can happen right now is for Fehr to say "Hey guys, I know you want to sign this and get back to playing, but trust me, it's in your best interest to reject it, and wait for the owners to completely cave in. I didn't get the MLBPA to where it is by making compromises"... and for the players to buy it.

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10-16-2012, 09:03 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
I really, really hope that's the case, and that it's enough to push forward and get things done.

If anything, I have confidence in the players being involved enough in the negotiations to drive that point forward. They can't let Fehr just do his thing. The worst thing that can happen right now is for Fehr to say "Hey guys, I know you want to sign this and get back to playing, but trust me, it's in your best interest to reject it, and wait for the owners to completely cave in. I didn't get the MLBPA to where it is by making compromises"... and for the players to buy it.
The thing is, I think they can't afford to refuse. Sure they can negotiate around though. The NHL has made the last two offers, NHLPA hasn't offered anything in the last month and a half. The Owners came a long way to offer a 50-50 share.

IMO if the NHLPA refuses, it only gets worst for them. The owners can easily say **** it...let's cancel the season. The players have a lot more to lose. The owners can also just wait and offer something worst.

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10-16-2012, 09:16 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by mat_sens View Post
The thing is, I think they can't afford to refuse. Sure they can negotiate around though. The NHL has made the last two offers, NHLPA hasn't offered anything in the last month and a half. The Owners came a long way to offer a 50-50 share.

IMO if the NHLPA refuses, it only gets worst for them. The owners can easily say **** it...let's cancel the season. The players have a lot more to lose. The owners can also just wait and offer something worst.
A lot of players will want to go for this whatever the PA decides.

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10-16-2012, 09:24 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
A lot of players will want to go for this whatever the PA decides.
**** them if they do. Funny how they played the innocent all along, saying the NHL is the reason there is a lockout right now. All the fans would turn against them pretty quickly

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10-16-2012, 11:23 PM
  #186
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The proposed crack down on those back diving contracts makes me smile. Glad Ottawa doesn't have any of those extreme deals on the books. If it goes through I hope Vancouver likes Bobby Lou for the next ten years.

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10-17-2012, 01:00 AM
  #187
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There are some solid parts to the NHL offer, the 5 % max increase/decrease from year to year of salary and 5 year contracts pretty much rule out the circumvention. Obviously this is just a grounds for further negotiating, but you can't help but feel optimistic we're going to get hockey back soon.

Like people have mentioned, the ball is in the players court. If they fail to run with it, the fans will turn. For the players and the NHL I think this a bigger detriment to the game than fans hating the league. If you break the bond between athlete and fan, what's the point of watching? In 2005, I don't think either side came out unscathed. The wrath of the fans directed at both sides as the issues themselves were polarized. If the PA fails to progress the negotiations from this point on it will be one sided hate.

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Old
10-17-2012, 01:57 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by QuietOnTheFront View Post
If the PA fails to progress the negotiations from this point on it will be one sided hate.
I fear Fehr will come out and say 50/50 represented by the NHL is misleading and it's not much different than their original proposal. There are times when I'm been optimistic through the negotiations, but been let down so it's always difficult to get excited.

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10-17-2012, 08:45 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
I fear Fehr will come out and say 50/50 represented by the NHL is misleading and it's not much different than their original proposal. There are times when I'm been optimistic through the negotiations, but been let down so it's always difficult to get excited.
That really only plays to the more dedicated fan following the inner workings of the CBA. General public opinion is falling on the side of the owners, "we'll share 50/50", sounds extremely fair to most.

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10-17-2012, 09:00 AM
  #190
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Full offer published.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=6...id=DL|NHL|home

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10-17-2012, 09:03 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
Let's just assume, hypothetically, that this offer gets accepted by the NHLPA (or they reach a compromise that is close to it):

-The Sens would be pretty much smack-dab at the salary cap average.


... Nice.

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10-17-2012, 09:08 AM
  #192
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I'm just going through it now, but this definitely caught my eye:
"• Money paid to Players on NHL SPCs (one-ways and two-ways) in another professional league will not be counted against the Players' Share, but all dollars paid in excess of $105,000 will be counted against the NHL Club's Averaged Club Salary for the period during which such Player is being paid under his SPC while playing in another professional league."

Read as: no more burying big contract busts (Redden, Jeff Finger, etc...) in the minors / Europe. You sign a player to a contract, you're stuck with that cap hit. Period.


Also: the proposal to allow teams to eat salaries (and that salary's equivalent cap space) in trades is interesting.

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10-17-2012, 09:27 AM
  #193
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As per McKenzie, and as a surprise to absolutely zero baseball fans anywhere, Donald Fehr is not enthused with the owners latest offer.

Fehr:
- "Simply put, the owners' new proposal, while not quite as Draconian as their previous proposals, still represents enormous reductions in player salaries and individual contracting rights. As you will see, at the 5 per cent industry growth rate the owners predict, the salary reduction over six years exceeds $1.6 billion. What do the owners offer in return?"
"The proposal does represent movement from their last negotiating position, but still represents very large, immediate and continuing concessions by players to owners, in salary and benefits (the Players' Share) and in individual player contracting rules."



... Can't say I'm surprised.

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10-17-2012, 09:36 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
As per McKenzie, and as a surprise to absolutely zero baseball fans anywhere, Donald Fehr is not enthused with the owners latest offer.

Fehr:
- "Simply put, the owners' new proposal, while not quite as Draconian as their previous proposals, still represents enormous reductions in player salaries and individual contracting rights. As you will see, at the 5 per cent industry growth rate the owners predict, the salary reduction over six years exceeds $1.6 billion. What do the owners offer in return?"
"The proposal does represent movement from their last negotiating position, but still represents very large, immediate and continuing concessions by players to owners, in salary and benefits (the Players' Share) and in individual player contracting rules."



... Can't say I'm surprised.

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10-17-2012, 09:38 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
As per McKenzie, and as a surprise to absolutely zero baseball fans anywhere, Donald Fehr is not enthused with the owners latest offer.

Fehr:
- "Simply put, the owners' new proposal, while not quite as Draconian as their previous proposals, still represents enormous reductions in player salaries and individual contracting rights. As you will see, at the 5 per cent industry growth rate the owners predict, the salary reduction over six years exceeds $1.6 billion. What do the owners offer in return?"
"The proposal does represent movement from their last negotiating position, but still represents very large, immediate and continuing concessions by players to owners, in salary and benefits (the Players' Share) and in individual player contracting rules."



... Can't say I'm surprised.
A fing joke is what he is. NHLPA will be losing a lot of fans.

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10-17-2012, 09:40 AM
  #196
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Yeah I was waiting for one of two reactions from Fehr:

1. Ok let's get to making a deal!

2. This offer is just a wolf in sheep's clothing!

and it looks like he went with number two. Going to try to remain optimistic until we see what comes out of the meetings tomorrow, but gotta say this doesn't look great.

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10-17-2012, 09:45 AM
  #197
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Fehr's take on the "Make Whole" is just absolute BS & Spin. Players paying players, lol.

The only way this works is if the PA comes back with a staged reduction to 50% IMO, something like 55% this year, then 53%, 51 then 50.

IMO, the owners really want the 50%, they're probably willing to let other stuff slide.

What doesn't seem to be talked about much is the "Redden Rule", where salary in other pro leagues counts against the cap. That will affect current players salaries as teams wont be able to spend as much.

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10-17-2012, 09:48 AM
  #198
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Adam Jahns - twitter
Talked briefly again with #Blackhawks dman Steve Montador after NHLPA call, he said the NHL's new offer changes what makes up HRR again.

Err no Steve, offer clearly states that no changes to HRR.

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10-17-2012, 09:48 AM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
As per McKenzie, and as a surprise to absolutely zero baseball fans anywhere, Donald Fehr is not enthused with the owners latest offer.

Fehr:
- "Simply put, the owners' new proposal, while not quite as Draconian as their previous proposals, still represents enormous reductions in player salaries and individual contracting rights. As you will see, at the 5 per cent industry growth rate the owners predict, the salary reduction over six years exceeds $1.6 billion. What do the owners offer in return?"
"The proposal does represent movement from their last negotiating position, but still represents very large, immediate and continuing concessions by players to owners, in salary and benefits (the Players' Share) and in individual player contracting rules."



... Can't say I'm surprised.
But Fehr is correct about all of those things. And note that he doesn't dismiss the offer out of hand. It is the closest thing the PA has seen to a reasonable offer but they are still taking over a 12% paycut in a growth industry. How many growth industries cut their employees pay?

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10-17-2012, 09:51 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by QuietOnTheFront View Post
Like people have mentioned, the ball is in the players court. If they fail to run with it, the fans will turn. For the players and the NHL I think this a bigger detriment to the game than fans hating the league. If you break the bond between athlete and fan, what's the point of watching? In 2005, I don't think either side came out unscathed. The wrath of the fans directed at both sides as the issues themselves were polarized. If the PA fails to progress the negotiations from this point on it will be one sided hate.
That is a good point. In a way all the hate directed at Bettman, though probably no fun for him, permits the fans to still support their local owner and the players.

On a CBC phone in program on Sunday a lot of people called in and railed against Bettman but then followed up by saying that their local owners were wonderful and they didn't blame them at all. It was all Bettmans fault.

So as long as Bettman is the scapegoat and bears the blame, then the fans can retain their loyalty to their local owner and players.The only downside at least for Bettman, is being booed at all the rinks.But the bond between the players, local owners and fans is intact.

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