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Is Elias the best LW of the last 30 years?

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Old
05-11-2006, 11:09 PM
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
So are everyones else numbers inflated from playing in the 80's also? Once again kind of hard to dominate when youve got 3 of all the all time greatest players in the NHL , in their prime. Im not saying that hes an all time great of the game but when it comes to LW he should be considered top 10. And for a stretch of time he was better than good but not great. Considering where the guy was drafted at noone expected him to even come close to whats hes accomplished. Going from 9th round draft pick to all time lw leader in everything speaks for itself regardless of what decade he played in.
Yes, everyone else's numbers from the 80s are also inflated.

If Luc would have been the 4th best player every season then yes, I would call that dominance. You know what? He was never the 4th best player. He was almost always #15 - #25 and that is not dominance.

Look at it this way: Cy Denneny finished in the top 3 in NHL scoring 8 times. Luc NEVER finished in the top 3. Denneny had 315 career points and Robitaille had 1394. Who was the more dominant left winger?

Answer: Cy Denneny and it's not even close.

Inflated totals of players in the 80s skews their place in history.

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05-11-2006, 11:12 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
When has Elias ever been consistently 4th in the NHL? Elias has had 1 year near the top, when was he top 7 in Hart balloting? Elias has been up and down his whole career.
Elias twice finished in the top 7 in NHL scoring and once finished in the top 7 in Hart Trophy balloting. One of Elias' top 7 finishes in scoring was 3rd. He has not consistently been 4th and that is why Markus Naslund has been the more dominant left winger. Naslund was consistently a top 3 player for 3 seasons.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 05-11-2006 at 11:18 PM.
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Old
05-12-2006, 12:04 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Yes, everyone else's numbers from the 80s are also inflated.

If Luc would have been the 4th best player every season then yes, I would call that dominance. You know what? He was never the 4th best player. He was almost always #15 - #25 and that is not dominance.

Look at it this way: Cy Denneny finished in the top 3 in NHL scoring 8 times. Luc NEVER finished in the top 3. Denneny had 315 career points and Robitaille had 1394. Who was the more dominant left winger?

Answer: Cy Denneny and it's not even close.

Inflated totals of players in the 80s skews their place in history.
In all fairness to your methods. Denneny played in a league with mainly 4 teams during his career. Later the league expanded to 6 and then 10 teams for his last couple of years. A couple of seasons he played there were 3 teams. There were essentially 10 players that played on any team. So Cy was top 3 in a league of 30-60 people for most of those seasons. So in 1918-19 he was second in goals. I just counted and there were about 29 players who played close to a full season besides goaltenders. In 1919-20 Cy got 16 goals. There were 4 teams and about 40 players so he was tied for 15th in goals. Out of 40 players. In 1920-21 he was second in goals out of 40 players. In 1921-22 he was 3rd out of 40 players in goals. In 1922-23 he was 3rd out of 40 players in goals. 1n 23/24 he led the NHL in goals, there were still 4 teams and only 40 total players. In 24/25 there were now 6 teams and 60 or so players Cy was third in goals. 25/26 there were 7 teams and about 70 players overall and Cy was 4th in goals. In 26/27 there were now 10 teams and a longer schedule and about 12 players a team so about 120 players in the NHL. Cy was tied for 8th in goals.

And during most of Cy's career the NHL did not have all of the best players. Many of the very top players were in the Pacific Hockey Association and the Western Canada Hockey League. Players like Frank Boucher, Newsey Lalonde, Bill Cook, Corbett Denneny, Alf Skinner, Duncan McKay, Jack Adams, George Hay, Art Gagne, Dick Irvin and others would have challenged Cy during his time in the NHL if they had been competing with him for scoring championships.

In Robitaille's time there was 21-30 teams. There were 18/19 players a team so 400-550 or so players. A much higher percentage of the best players in the world were in the NHL during his career, especially after the fall of the iron curtain a few years into Robitaille's career.

Ogopogo I know you value every NHL season equally but they are not equal or close. By the end of Cy's career the NHL had truly become the dominant hockey league but during most of Cy's career it wasn't that much better in terms of talent then competing leagues in the West. By the time the NHL expanded to 10 teams they really started to take a much higher percentage of the best hockey talent.

So my point is if you are a top 15-20 player for a decade or more in a league of 500 players that are generally the best players in the world it is more impressive then being one of the 2 or 3 best players in a league of 40 players when there are 2 other leagues of nearly comparable talent.


Last edited by Sens Rule: 05-12-2006 at 12:10 AM.
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Old
05-12-2006, 06:47 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassés
No, he didn't. He offered opinions.
He humped my leg over one sentence in a post about what Bob Gainey did, then got really pissy for the lack of respect toward Craig Ramsay (high puss element lowers any assessment on my charts, but, that's opinion, like you said). If he'd just ignored it, 95%+ chance there wouldn't have even been another post, in this thread from me. Look at the reaction toward the comment about Lindy Ruff!

He even used this thread to call-out another post in an entirely different thread. (Great job, mods!) It's funny because, while having discussions with friends (people who really know their history) over beers, while watching games, the same remarks result in same rather lively conversations without controversy. Post them on a message board, and suddenly they become outlandish statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassés
Then your post goes on to have the kind of discussion the original post is, in part, designed to generate. However, your tone indicates you feel anyone who disagrees with you obviously doesn't know what they're talking about - ironic given your complaint.
Or maybe it was just that living near Buffalo, and following the Sabres as a kid, gave me some knowledge about Craig Ramsay? Those teams were always full of friction, and whenever there was a story in the papers, he was always the source. This is something that would never appear on any stat sheet, but has a profound influence on chemistry. Now, considering that many of the post '75 Sabres teams were deep enough to have a high expectation level, it's hardly any stretch to realize that there were disruptive influences within the organization. So, yeah, that counts against him in a very big way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassés
I lurked this forum (CBJ board regular) before posting. This history stuff is great. But ultimately it all boils down to opinion. Everyone uses their own criteria - numbers, awards, Cups, whatever. But I think it all comes down to a gut feeling. So be it.
No dispute there. As a matter of fact, rankings and comparisons to players of different eras never goes anywhere. For discussion purposes, it's OK. Check out the annual Hockey News player rankings, not to mention their predictions. Everything is based on the previous season. No going out on a limb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by recockoning
How did Tkachuk do in the playoffs? You`re quoting regular season stats when earlier you said they amounted to squat.
You're right. He sucks. Always did.

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Old
05-12-2006, 07:18 AM
  #130
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Ovechkin and Kovalchuk are both better than Elias and they're not even close to their prime yet.

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05-12-2006, 08:26 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Enough Soviets have come over recently and proven their superior skills to know that those who werent allowed to play here would have dominated. Maybe it doesnt work for your 7 point lists...


btw - Goulet in the mid 80's was the best forward after Stastny, Trottier and Lemieux.

Gainey was a great skater and hitter, but he couldnt hit the side of a barn with his shot and was a klutz with the puck.
PLZ, ditch Trottier and put Gretz in....

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05-12-2006, 08:42 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
Did Elias have at their prime peak lemieux, gretzky, yzerman to stack up against? I guess growing up and watching Luc come into the league and become one of the best all time lw's in hockey skews my view a bit. Elias is a great hockey player. I just dont see how year after year consistency gets put on the bottom of the list.
Playing with Gretzky didn't help his numbers any? There were more goals scored in 87-97 than 97-04, so expecting Elias to match numbers with Robitaille is unfair. Robitaille scored 125 points in 1992-93, and finished 9th in scoring. From 1997-98 to 2003-04 there were only nine 100+ point players, and only one put up 125+ points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19
When has Elias ever been consistently 4th in the NHL? Elias has had 1 year near the top, when was he top 7 in Hart balloting? Elias has been up and down his whole career.
Elias has never consistently been 4th in the NHL, but neither has Robitaille. Elias has been 3rd and 6th in NHL scoring, while Robitaille was 5th twice, and in his highest scoring season was 9th. Elias was 6th in Hart voting in 2000-01, and has received votes for the Hart 3 times. Robitaille never received a single vote for the Hart in his career.

Robitaille has some gaudy numbers because he played in a time of gaudy numbers. He's still a fine hockey player, but his numbers are inflated beyond his actual ability. Robitaille is the highest scoring LW in NHL history, single season and career, but he isn't the "best" scoring LW in NHL history. He still deserves more than an honorable mention, but he shouldn't be measured on raw point totals.

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05-12-2006, 09:56 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
Playing with Gretzky didn't help his numbers any? There were more goals scored in 87-97 than 97-04, so expecting Elias to match numbers with Robitaille is unfair. Robitaille scored 125 points in 1992-93, and finished 9th in scoring. From 1997-98 to 2003-04 there were only nine 100+ point players, and only one put up 125+ points.
Clearly playing on a team with Gretzky helped Robitaille but Luc's best Season of 125 points and 63 goals came during the season Gretky only played 45 games and got 65 points. The next leading scorer on that team (that went to the final) was Kurri with 87 points and Granato with 37 goals.

Robitaile was not usually on a line with Gretzky anyway and Robitaille was the top scorer on the Kings for 2 seasons before Gretzky came to LA. I don't think that Robitaille's point totals are significantly augmented by being on a team with Gretzky. Maybe a bit but not alot.

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05-12-2006, 09:58 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Bob
It's funny because, while having discussions with friends (people who really know their history) over beers, while watching games, the same remarks result in same rather lively conversations without controversy. Post them on a message board, and suddenly they become outlandish statements.


...

As a matter of fact, rankings and comparisons to players of different eras never goes anywhere. For discussion purposes, it's OK.

Good points. This is really where I was heading.

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Old
05-12-2006, 06:14 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cup2006sensrule
Luc's best Season of 125 points and 63 goals came during
a season in which 21 players had 100 or more points, and 14 players scored 50 or more goals, and 15 teams scored over 300 goals.

Year - 50 - 100 - 300
92-93 - 14 - 21 - 15
93-94 - 9 - 8 - 3
94-95 - Strike
95-96 - 8 - 12 - 3
96-97 - 4 - 2 - 0
97-98 - 4 - 1 - 0
98-99 - 0 - 3 - 0
99-00 - 1 - 0 - 0
00-01 - 3 - 2 - 0
01-02 - 1 - 0 - 0
02-03 - 1 - 3 - 0
03-04 - 0 - 0 - 0
05-06 - 5 - 7 - 2

It's been a decade since anybody scored 60 goals in a season. Does this mean Robitaille was a better goal scorer than anyone that has played in the last decade? Comparing numbers from the 80's & 90's high scoring era to the "dead puck era" is as meaningless as comparing Crosby's Q league point totals to his NHL numbers.

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05-12-2006, 06:31 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
a season in which 21 players had 100 or more points, and 14 players scored 50 or more goals, and 15 teams scored over 300 goals.

Year - 50 - 100 - 300
92-93 - 14 - 21 - 15
93-94 - 9 - 8 - 3
94-95 - Strike
95-96 - 8 - 12 - 3
96-97 - 4 - 2 - 0
97-98 - 4 - 1 - 0
98-99 - 0 - 3 - 0
99-00 - 1 - 0 - 0
00-01 - 3 - 2 - 0
01-02 - 1 - 0 - 0
02-03 - 1 - 3 - 0
03-04 - 0 - 0 - 0
05-06 - 5 - 7 - 2

It's been a decade since anybody scored 60 goals in a season. Does this mean Robitaille was a better goal scorer than anyone that has played in the last decade? Comparing numbers from the 80's & 90's high scoring era to the "dead puck era" is as meaningless as comparing Crosby's Q league point totals to his NHL numbers.
I never said Robitaille was better than every goal scorer in the last 10 years. I said he had by far his best season when Gretzky missed half the season. I discussed purely the incorrect point you made implying that Robitaille's numbers were boosted alot by Gretzky which was not the case. Robitaille finished 8th in points that year. Robitaille finished 9th in points and 4th in goals that season. Pretty good.

Elias had 2 real great seasons where he was top 10 in points. Robitaille has had more seasons where he is near the top of the goal scoring/ point leaders than Elias. Regardless of the level of offensive in the eras they played in Robitaille was a better offensive player than Elias. That said Elias has a much better all around game than Robitaille does that is why he may be as good or better than Robitaille.

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