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Old
10-16-2012, 11:14 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post

2-It's not personal with Methot. He's a classic 3rd pair defender. He's 27 and has never been more than that.
1) this is factually incorrect.
2) this is not the "MAK vs Methot" thread (though I'm sure there will be one on the Sens board, 5 minutes into the first period of the first game of the year, when you notice that Methot tapes his stick weird, or something).

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Old
10-16-2012, 11:18 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
1) this is factually incorrect.
2) this is not the "MAK vs Methot" thread (though I'm sure there will be one on the Sens board, 5 minutes into the first period of the first game of the year, when you notice that Methot tapes his stick weird, or something).
well, when was he ever more than 3rd pair?

even if what you're saying is true, #4 minutes on the jackets dont impress me, sorry

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10-16-2012, 11:20 PM
  #78
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Erik Karlsson. That is all.


Milan Michalek's presence or absence won't make me watch games or not. Not even close.
No no, this is a completely different argument.

You said: "Why do they need to be competitive?"
I replied with the insinuation that uncompetitive teams usually draw poorly. Being competitive absolutely matters to a team's bottom line.

Watching Michalek or not might not affect viewing habits, but watching a wining team vs a losing one might. I think it's a given that most of us who post on HFBoards will watch our teams won or lose, but to the general audience, and casual fans, having an uncompetitive team is an invitation to stop paying attention. And many teams need casual fans to stay engaged, or risk losing wuite a hefty chunk of $.

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Old
10-16-2012, 11:23 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
No no, this is a completely different argument.

You said: "Why do they need to be competitive?"
I replied with the insinuation that uncompetitive teams usually draw poorly. Being competitive absolutely matters to a team's bottom line.

Watching Michalek or not might not affect viewing habits, but watching a wining team vs a losing one might. I think it's a given that most of us who post on HFBoards will watch our teams won or lose, but to the general audience, and casual fans, having an uncompetitive team is an invitation to stop paying attention. And many teams need casual fans to stay engaged, or risk losing wuite a hefty chunk of $.
true, that said, attendance was pretty good this season after a horrible 2010-11 season was it not?

Even during this rebuild attendance has not dropped I don't think right?

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10-16-2012, 11:26 PM
  #80
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well, when was he ever more than 3rd pair?

even if what you're saying is true, #4 minutes on the jackets dont impress me, sorry
You're basing your argument on ice time? We went over this already: Defensive defenceman almost never lead their team in ice time, due to the fact that they receive almost no PP time.

Even Anton Volchenkov, when he was here and was a dominant physical force and on one of the best shutdown pairings in the league, never was any higher than 4th in icetime on the Sens. Using icetime to gauge a defensive defenceman is a terrible metric.

Now PLEASE, if you want to discuss either Methot OR why a team's competitive level has an effect on a team's wallet, PM me. Let's not derail a trade thread about non-trade-related issues.

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Old
10-16-2012, 11:29 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
You're basing your argument on ice time? We went over this already: Defensive defenceman almost never lead their team in ice time, due to the fact that they receive almost no PP time.

Even Anton Volchenkov, when he was here and was a dominant physical force and on one of the best shutdown pairings in the league, never was any higher than 4th in icetime on the Sens. Using icetime to gauge a defensive defenceman is a terrible metric.

Now PLEASE, if you want to discuss either Methot OR why a team's competitive level has an effect on a team's wallet, PM me. Let's not derail a trade thread about non-trade-related issues.
It's absolutely related.

Methot-Do the Sens have a need on defense?

Competitiveness-Should the team care about short term competitiveness?

Absolutely related to this trade.

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10-16-2012, 11:32 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
You're basing your argument on ice time? We went over this already: Defensive defenceman almost never lead their team in ice time, due to the fact that they receive almost no PP time.

Even Anton Volchenkov, when he was here and was a dominant physical force and on one of the best shutdown pairings in the league, never was any higher than 4th in icetime on the Sens. Using icetime to gauge a defensive defenceman is a terrible metric.

Now PLEASE, if you want to discuss either Methot OR why a team's competitive level has an effect on a team's wallet, PM me. Let's not derail a trade thread about non-trade-related issues.
While I can see how this can be viewed as off topic, at the same time the discussion on Methot pretty directly correlates to the willingness of Ottawa fans actually feeling like they "need" another defender. I personally would encourage it because while there are a few circles in the argument there is also some good information regarding the situation. Once things really start being repeated then a stop should be put to it but at the moment there seems to be good information coming though becoming smaller chunks each time lol. Really just keep it classy and informative.

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10-16-2012, 11:36 PM
  #83
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It's absolutely related.

Methot-Do the Sens have a need on defense?

Competitiveness-Should the team care about short term competitiveness?

Absolutely related to this trade.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YotesFan47 View Post
While I can see how this can be viewed as off topic, at the same time the discussion on Methot pretty directly correlates to the willingness of Ottawa fans actually feeling like they "need" another defender. I personally would encourage it because while there are a few circles in the argument there is also some good information regarding the situation. Once things really start being repeated then a stop should be put to it but at the moment there seems to be good information coming though becoming smaller chunks each time lol. Really just keep it classy and informative.
Fair enough, I just thought that Coyotes fans might not want to listen to a couple of Sens fans duke it out about a player not mentioned in the trade proposal.

That being said, I have to go pick my daughter up from school (I live on the other side of the planet as y'all), so the debate will have to be put on hold on my end. I'll let other Sens fans make comments, probably chime in later.

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Old
10-16-2012, 11:39 PM
  #84
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I don't think that the Sens can afford to give up one of their best wingers for a future top 4 d-man. Plus I don't think they really need any more youth on the back end that badly right now.

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10-16-2012, 11:45 PM
  #85
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I don't think that the Sens can afford to give up one of their best wingers for a future top 4 d-man. Plus I don't think they really need any more youth on the back end that badly right now.
Karlsson, Cowen and Ceci. That's it for future top 4.

Wiercioch is a long shot for top 4 right now, but I think he'll be an NHLer on the 3rd pair, same with Borowiecki.

Add Gormley to the big 3 and that's just badass.

Spezza, Turris, Latendresse, Silfverberg, Zibanejad, Noesen, Puempel, Prince, Pageau, Stone, Petersson, Greening, Da Costa, Hoffman, Filatov


Methot... alright, his ice time was reduced because Defensive d-men get less ice time. OK. I don't know about the rest of you all, but I prefer two-way defensemen in my top 4. Even Chris Phillips puts up 25 points and that's fine. 10 points from Methot... Not enough. I would want a higher skill level on my top pair. I think that's very reasonable.

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10-17-2012, 12:10 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Karlsson, Cowen and Ceci. That's it for future top 4.

Wiercioch is a long shot for top 4 right now, but I think he'll be an NHLer on the 3rd pair, same with Borowiecki.

Add Gormley to the big 3 and that's just badass.

Spezza, Turris, Latendresse, Silfverberg, Zibanejad, Noesen, Puempel, Prince, Pageau, Stone, Petersson, Greening, Da Costa, Hoffman, Filatov


Methot... alright, his ice time was reduced because Defensive d-men get less ice time. OK. I don't know about the rest of you all, but I prefer two-way defensemen in my top 4. Even Chris Phillips puts up 25 points and that's fine. 10 points from Methot... Not enough. I would want a higher skill level on my top pair. I think that's very reasonable.
Methot will get 25 points if he plays with Karlsson...

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10-17-2012, 12:28 AM
  #87
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Methot will get 25 points if he plays with Karlsson...
There's just absolutely no way that happens unless Karlsson wins the Art Ross.

Methot won't get PP time. Which means 25 even strength (or SH) points. That's not happening. Kuba had 19 even strength points last season. Not happening.

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10-17-2012, 12:40 AM
  #88
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I would have to say Glenn Close but no cigar from the Coyotes.

For the record, though, Senators fans are by far my favorite fans on these boards.

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10-17-2012, 01:11 AM
  #89
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How exactly does Murray justify trading an established top 6 forward still young at 27 for a prospect who hopefully becomes a top 4 defenseman?

Michalek had 35 goals last year, how good do people think Gormley is going to be?

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10-17-2012, 02:27 AM
  #90
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Quote:
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Marc frikin Methot is on the 1st pair. Marc frikin Methot.
Methot is merely 1 of 3 left D-men jockeying for position over the next 2 years with Phillips and Cowen. There isn't a 1st, 2nd or 3rd pairing D-men among those guys yet and they'll probably have nearly identical ice times over that same period.

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The Sens are in a youth movement. So vets should be traded for youngsters to keep building. Michalek has 5-7 years as a 2nd line winger left, while Gormley has 15 years as a top 4 D left.
Michalek is a 1st line winger and if we can build around Spezza, we can and should include him. He's very good and despite what you might think, we really haven't produced many better than him in 20 years.

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The Sens have like 8 winger prospects or more with top 6 potential. I think we can find 3 or 4 scorers from that especially with the quality prospects that they are. The Sens have never had a prospect pool and young players as good as this. A bunch of players who haven't had 30 point seasons can and will have them.
From 1992-99, Ottawa had a prospect pool that blows this one completely out of the water. It actually produced a bunch of stars, good middle-tier and role players... whereas, you are only desperately hoping that we can have just about the best prospect pool in the league now.

Btw, Ottawa's developed only 8 forwards who've ever had a 60 point season in their careers in 21 drafts. How many do you think that we have in our prospect pool now? ... 3? 4? 5?

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
3- It's not just about points. Points alone don't determine how good a player is. Michalek being 55-75 in scoring doesn't mean he's the 55-75th best forward, not even close. (and he's only been that good ONCE out of 3 seasons in Ottawa, forgive my lack of belief in him).
You're right; being a very good defensive player and 225 lbs probably means that he's better some of the smaller, 1-dimensional players who scored a handful more points than he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
4-Michalek spent the vast majority of his ice time with Karlsson and Spezza... therefore his stats appear better than that of just a regular 2nd line winger.

5-Michalek needs a center like Spezza to produce... a puck handling centre. Because he's horrible at handling the puck himself.
We gave him 1st line ice time and he produced as such.

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he will be.
So will Cam Barker, Brian Lee, Hickey, Aki Berg and a tonne of other guys.

He's only played 4 pro games, all of them in the AHL.

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1-Gormley is terrific prospect that should have went higher in the draft. He has top pair potential, top 4 is his low end. Being conservative.
You aren't being anything that could be considered "conservative"; you're offering up a proven 27yo winger with multiple 55-66 point seasons for a 20yo prospect who has proven very little because he's only played a handful of pro games.

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You didn't address the fact that defense is a bigger need at the moment. I guess you agree.
At the moment, we have Phillips and Methot for a few more years. Meanwhile, we lose Alfie this year and have nobody who has proven a damn thing behind Spezza... except Michalek.

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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Competitiveness-Should the team care about short term competitiveness?
Yes, because the team is building now; not rebuilding. Anybody younger than Spezza can be apart of the rebuild based on the fact that the team seems to be rebuilding around him. Michalek is a good, all-round player that we would need to move forward. The chances that a prospect like Gormley becomes as good as Michalek are very slim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Karlsson, Cowen and Ceci. That's it for future top 4.

Add Gormley to the big 3 and that's just badass.
Cowen, Ceci and Gormley have combined for 1 NHL season. Teams usually don't like to throw that much inexperience on the blueline all at once. We'd be better off signing a free agent to fill Gonchar's offensive role and then trying to develop some D-man that we draft in 2014.

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Old
10-17-2012, 04:16 AM
  #91
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Methot will get 25 points if he plays with Karlsson...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
There's just absolutely no way that happens unless Karlsson wins the Art Ross.

Methot won't get PP time. Which means 25 even strength (or SH) points. That's not happening. Kuba had 19 even strength points last season. Not happening.
Methot's career high is 17 points (all ES or SH, obviously), when he was playing with Dan Hejda. He also only played 66 games that season, it was a 22 point/year pace. If Methot plays even-strength regularly, and stays healthy, I can easily see him getting 8 more total points (or 3 more points than he was on pace for) than he did with Dan Hejda (a very nice defensive player, but clearly not an offensive dynamo/ Norris Trophy winner).

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but to expect 3-8 more points (depending if you're counting actual points or pace) out of Methot considering who he's playing with isn't a ridiculous proposition at all. If he doesn't miss time with an injury, 20-25 points is a reasonable estimate for someone to have.


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Old
10-17-2012, 04:33 AM
  #92
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This is a classic sell high senario, Everyone one on here likes to infer that no team trades a player when his value is at an all time low.... and I agree that's silly you'd never get true value. The problem is, this is the flip side. You have a guy that has never topped 30 goals in a season, and it's not like he was playing with 3rd or fourth liners in SJ. MM is a speady, strong two-way player. He is not a perenial 30+ goal man..... Ottawa is still a team in transition. I don't beleive they are cup contenders yet, but when they put all of the pieces together they will have one hell of a good team in a couple years. They have an embarsment of riches coming down the pipe line for all of their forward lines. With the prospect pool Ottawa is drawing from I would not worry about 20-30 goals that have to be made up after loosing MM, I'm wanting to add a potential top pairing D-man like Gormley. Top propescts do get traded for this very kind of package. Teams over pay all the time for quality D espesially if it's for one of the best defensive prospects in the NHL... This is a fair proposal and not an overpayment by any means. MM is no scrub, he is like I said a very talented two way forward. This trade would have made FAR more sence before dealing Foligno for Methot. But I'd still make the trade! A two way forward can be replaced easier than a top pairing D...
Except you are forgetting one thing...

Milan Michalek is a fairly young, well established 1st-2nd line winger. If anyone is selling high, it is the Phoenix Coyotes. Quality D? Sure, Gormley is an elite defenseman in the QMJHL, I won't dispute that. To say he is a quality NHL d-man right now, is nothing short of absurd.

Say what you want about Marc Methot, but you can't deny he is an NHL player. Brandon Gormley is not yet an NHL player, there is a reason very good NHL players generally have more value than very good prospects.

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10-17-2012, 07:36 AM
  #93
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Methot is merely 1 of 3 left D-men jockeying for position over the next 2 years with Phillips and Cowen. There isn't a 1st, 2nd or 3rd pairing D-men among those guys yet and they'll probably have nearly identical ice times over that same period.



Michalek is a 1st line winger and if we can build around Spezza, we can and should include him. He's very good and despite what you might think, we really haven't produced many better than him in 20 years.



From 1992-99, Ottawa had a prospect pool that blows this one completely out of the water. It actually produced a bunch of stars, good middle-tier and role players... whereas, you are only desperately hoping that we can have just about the best prospect pool in the league now.

Btw, Ottawa's developed only 8 forwards who've ever had a 60 point season in their careers in 21 drafts. How many do you think that we have in our prospect pool now? ... 3? 4? 5?



You're right; being a very good defensive player and 225 lbs probably means that he's better some of the smaller, 1-dimensional players who scored a handful more points than he did.



We gave him 1st line ice time and he produced as such.



So will Cam Barker, Brian Lee, Hickey, Aki Berg and a tonne of other guys.

He's only played 4 pro games, all of them in the AHL.



You aren't being anything that could be considered "conservative"; you're offering up a proven 27yo winger with multiple 55-66 point seasons for a 20yo prospect who has proven very little because he's only played a handful of pro games.



At the moment, we have Phillips and Methot for a few more years. Meanwhile, we lose Alfie this year and have nobody who has proven a damn thing behind Spezza... except Michalek.



Yes, because the team is building now; not rebuilding. Anybody younger than Spezza can be apart of the rebuild based on the fact that the team seems to be rebuilding around him. Michalek is a good, all-round player that we would need to move forward. The chances that a prospect like Gormley becomes as good as Michalek are very slim.



Cowen, Ceci and Gormley have combined for 1 NHL season. Teams usually don't like to throw that much inexperience on the blueline all at once. We'd be better off signing a free agent to fill Gonchar's offensive role and then trying to develop some D-man that we draft in 2014.


Excellent post!

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10-17-2012, 10:03 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Karlsson, Cowen and Ceci. That's it for future top 4.

10 points from Methot... Not enough. I would want a higher skill level on my top pair. I think that's very reasonable.
Methot is a very reasonable top 4 defenseman.

Karlsson-Cowen
Ceci-Methot

That top 4 looks fine to me. Methot is a big physical and fast defender. His puck moving is fine, he just doesn't generate a lot of offense.

I see what you are trying to do and I agree with it in theory, but the Sens should use their depth of winger prospects to find a defender not one of their few proven top line wingers.

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10-17-2012, 10:47 AM
  #95
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Erik Karlsson. That is all.


Milan Michalek's presence or absence won't make me watch games or not. Not even close.
You must have been sleeping on Feb 22nd 2012 when EK slapped a pass to Michalek then no-hands Michalek ''dribbled'' his way around around Washington's defense and goalie...

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10-17-2012, 12:16 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
1-It's not just about the present, it's about the future. Last I checked, the Sens are nowhere near competing for the Cup. Marc frikin Methot is on the 1st pair. Marc frikin Methot. The Sens are in a youth movement. So vets should be traded for youngsters to keep building. Michalek has 5-7 years as a 2nd line winger left, while Gormley has 15 years as a top 4 D left.

2-The Sens have a bigger need on defense. Marc frikin Methot is on the 1st pair. Marc frikin Methot. I doubt you of all people wants to run with that long term. The Sens have like 8 winger prospects or more with top 6 potential. I think we can find 3 or 4 scorers from that especially with the quality prospects that they are. The Sens have never had a prospect pool and young players as good as this. A bunch of players who haven't had 30 point seasons can and will have them.

3- It's not just about points. Points alone don't determine how good a player is. Michalek being 55-75 in scoring doesn't mean he's the 55-75th best forward, not even close. (and he's only been that good ONCE out of 3 seasons in Ottawa, forgive my lack of belief in him).

4-Michalek spent the vast majority of his ice time with Karlsson and Spezza... therefore his stats appear better than that of just a regular 2nd line winger.

5-Michalek needs a center like Spezza to produce... a puck handling centre. Because he's horrible at handling the puck himself.
Dude, what do you have agaisnt Michalek? The fact that he is big? Fearless? Great in all zones? Protects his teammates? Scores goals? Is a great power forward? Plays great ES, PP, and PK? I'm not hearing any negatives here. You really seem to have an unnatural hate for Milan Michalek.

Oh, and 35 goal scorers ARE first liners, sorry to burst your bubble.

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10-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #97
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"Let's trade for Nash" results in "We are rebuilding, going with youth!"
"Lets trade Michalek for a blue chip prospect" results in "We dont need youth."

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10-17-2012, 07:08 PM
  #98
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Methot is merely 1 of 3 left D-men jockeying for position over the next 2 years with Phillips and Cowen. There isn't a 1st, 2nd or 3rd pairing D-men among those guys yet and they'll probably have nearly identical ice times over that same period.
OK, and my point is, you're comfortable with this? And when Philly retires, Borowiecki takes his place. You're comfortable with that left side? Good luck winning the cup.

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Michalek is a 1st line winger and if we can build around Spezza, we can and should include him. He's very good and despite what you might think, we really haven't produced many better than him in 20 years.
I'd feel around for trades with Spezza too. Guy is getting up there.

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From 1992-99, Ottawa had a prospect pool that blows this one completely out of the water. It actually produced a bunch of stars, good middle-tier and role players... whereas, you are only desperately hoping that we can have just about the best prospect pool in the league now.
Really? Hossa, Havlat, Alfredsson, Fisher, Yashin, Daigle... None of these were prospects at the same time. 2 overlapped at the same time at the most.

I fail to see how the Sens ever had a prospect pool better than Silfverberg, Zibanejad, Noesen, Puempel, Prince, Pageau, Stone, Petersson, Da Costa, Hoffman, Filatov.

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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Btw, Ottawa's developed only 8 forwards who've ever had a 60 point season in their careers in 21 drafts. How many do you think that we have in our prospect pool now? ... 3? 4? 5?
Maybe 2. 3 if everything goes perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
You're right; being a very good defensive player and 225 lbs probably means that he's better some of the smaller, 1-dimensional players who scored a handful more points than he did.
1-Players miss games, have less points but better points per game than Michalek
2-Some players have off years/horrible linemates but are still better than Michalek. For example, Ryan, Landeskog, Brown and many more

Your logic is extremely flawed. You can't just use scoring rank to determine how good a player is. And of course, as you always do, you selectively pick what fits your argument. What about Michalek's first 2 seaons in Ottawa?

Also, Michalek is not that good defensively, merely adequate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
We gave him 1st line ice time and he produced as such.
Give him first line ice time of the Blue Jackets and I doubt he cracks 45 points.

He's a 2nd line winger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
So will Cam Barker, Brian Lee, Hickey, Aki Berg and a tonne of other guys.

He's only played 4 pro games, all of them in the AHL.
I never said any of those players would be top 4. Lee was horrible pick looking back and at the time. Same with Hickey, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
You aren't being anything that could be considered "conservative"; you're offering up a proven 27yo winger with multiple 55-66 point seasons for a 20yo prospect who has proven very little because he's only played a handful of pro games.
And notice how Phx fans are rejecting it? Don't you think maybe your perceptions of Michalek and Gormley are slightly off?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
At the moment, we have Phillips and Methot for a few more years. Meanwhile, we lose Alfie this year and have nobody who has proven a damn thing behind Spezza... except Michalek.
I don't care. I believe in the young guys. Just because ''in 20 years, the Sens have only had X amount of players become top 6 forwards'' doesn't mean we can only expect to develop 1 or 2 in the next 5 years like you like to imply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Yes, because the team is building now; not rebuilding. Anybody younger than Spezza can be apart of the rebuild based on the fact that the team seems to be rebuilding around him. Michalek is a good, all-round player that we would need to move forward. The chances that a prospect like Gormley becomes as good as Michalek are very slim.
Spezza, Turris, Latendresse, Silfverberg, Zibanejad, Noesen, Puempel, Prince, Pageau, Stone, Petersson, Greening, Da Costa, Hoffman, Filatov

+ Regin, Smith and Condra. + a UFA or 2. I'm extremely confident the team can fill out a very good top 9 with this. They need help on D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Cowen, Ceci and Gormley have combined for 1 NHL season. Teams usually don't like to throw that much inexperience on the blueline all at once. We'd be better off signing a free agent to fill Gonchar's offensive role and then trying to develop some D-man that we draft in 2014.
And they won't. Ceci will come in 2 years probably. Gormley next year. Cowen is more experienced than both. Phillips will still be there.

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10-17-2012, 07:39 PM
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Trade Spezza? Really? And have no first line center? Well, that would be a good course of action... if we wanted to miss the playoffs every year. Just look at the Leafs, how is it working for them, not having a top line center? Its probably the hardest thing to find in the league, and we have one, and you want to trade him away? Wow.

And what you said about Michalek and how he would do on Columbus' top line is probably true... just as it would be for just about any other top line player in the league, short of the Crosbys and Malkins of the world.

Lose your Michalek hate already. He's a top line winger. Celebrate, don't hate.

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10-17-2012, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
Trade Spezza? Really? And have no first line center? Well, that would be a good course of action... if we wanted to miss the playoffs every year. Just look at the Leafs, how is it working for them, not having a top line center? Its probably the hardest thing to find in the league, and we have one, and you want to trade him away? Wow.

And what you said about Michalek and how he would do on Columbus' top line is probably true... just as it would be for just about any other top line player in the league, short of the Crosbys and Malkins of the world.

Lose your Michalek hate already. He's a top line winger. Celebrate, don't hate.


Looking and feeling around for potential deals is not the same as trading him for whatever you can get no matter what. Obviously, and you know this. Are you just trying to be dense on purpose?


uhhhh, no. Legit 1st liners don't get only 45 points on Columbus. They get 55+ easily.

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